Clarifying Garrosh's Stance

[Magical Mudcrab]

And your argument was something that i said myself, right

ok, nothing you said here make any sense.

Yes, it does make sense, but you're just not comprehending. You've put forward the corruption caused on Draenor as a primary example of what Fel does to the environment, but on the same beat you will also reject looking at the Night Elves or Trolls as examples of irreversible mutation or "corruption".

Humans, draeneis, and other races stayed in concentrations of arcane for a while, dalaran was a magic city, and you don't see human variants pooping around do you?
the only races we know that mutated by arcane magic was due tot he titan's blood from the well.

Sure, and how much do we know about Eredar history? Because we know that the Well of Eternity mutated the Trolls into another race, so you then appeal to a race whose history we don't know. Additionally, way to put Dalaran as your example when humans explicitly used Arcane magic in accordance with the 4 rules of magic. Even Kel'Thuzad, who simply used necromancy to create undead rats, was removed from the order due to fear of backlash from the Church of the Holy Light, so you're not going to have a good time if you're going to try and argue that what Dalaran mages were as reckless with magic as the Orcs who ended up destroying their planet with Fel.

youa re making a strawman here, id idn't say a single thing about addiction but mutation and corruption, which are, different things.

OK, so this is just an admission of bad faith or, at the very least, splitting hairs to an unbelievable extent. The addiction is part of the ailment caused by Arcane magic which causes the degradation of mortals who use it irresponsibly.

oh right, all the wells who came from the nightwell, hur dur.

1) The Sunwell did not come from the Nightwell, it was created with a vial of water from the Well of Eternity.
2) The Nightwell did not come from the Well of Eternity, it was imbued with power from the Eye of Aman'Thul.

Moreover, you're not grasping the fact that it's not just the Well of Eternity that causes side effects, but significantly lesser fonts of Arcane energy. That you missed this, when I think that point was very explicit, isn't great.

yes, thats exactly what im talking about, when yout ry to sue much of that, you became like that

Se Garry with the old god heart, he just came back to normal, with fell you don't go back, you ebcame a demon

Plus, Fel consume life energy, unlike arcane and void.

Yeah, he Kanrethad underwent apotheosis intentionally. This wasn't done simply because of being near Fel magic, he willfully underwent apotheosis. The fact that this is your example when we have examples like the Twilight Dragonflight, the Tidesages who become K'thir, and even the Naga who are all examples of intentional transformation using Void magic is absolutely insane. Being able to transition to a different state of being isn't something unique to Fel.

And, one last thing, you think void doesn't consume things? The same type of magic that spawned beings like Dimensius? The type of magic which the Dark Star on Draenor used, being a Void God, and readily consumed souls provided to it? The same magic that Ner'zhul said consumed his soul? The magic that corrupted the Emerald Dream, taking over large swathes of it and corrupting its denizens, and is a plane that has incredibly close connections with Life energy? That is insane.

[erifwodahs]

I'm not a Horde player so maybe this is why I'm confused. Garrosh hated warlocks, having the Horde muddied with other races and was ashamed of his father for drinking demon blood, yes? But then he eagerly and desperately consumes the power of an Old God that literally corrupts him. Am I missing something or was Garrosh just a huge hypocrite? Thanks

Difference being is that he never served. All he did has HIS doing. He was a shithead in the MoP, but at least he was real. This is why people admire him instead of this bullshit we have now.

[Dastreus]

Garrosh was an insecure man-baby.

Yeah. Hell, in Wrath, he also showed how dumb he is. Saurfang all "hm so Scourge positions are here and here and we don't want to piss off alliance positions since we are sort of working with them and" Garrosh: "NO. ME STOMP DEADEES AND HUMEES."

[Cosmic Janitor]

Yeah. Hell, in Wrath, he also showed how dumb he is. Saurfang all "hm so Scourge positions are here and here and we don't want to piss off alliance positions since we are sort of working with them and" Garrosh: "NO. ME STOMP DEADEES AND HUMEES."

He literally tried to get the horde player killed by sending them alone against a powerful scourge enemy.

[Malania]

Garrosh took the same path as Arthas. Power to defeat an enemy. The origin of power was irrelevant to him. I could see him using Fel if it served is purposes.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, it does make sense, but you're just not comprehending. You've put forward the corruption caused on Draenor as a primary example of what Fel does to the environment, but on the same beat you will also reject looking at the Night Elves or Trolls as examples of irreversible mutation or "corruption".

yes, because those are different.

The effects on trolls to night elves was due to the titan's blood puring from the wound, that was not just arcane magic.

This effect also was trough generations in a more natural way, since acelerate the evolution process of wildlife,

Fell magic affect orcs just by being nearby, we also ahve other isntances of the mere rpesence being a corruptive factor with blood elves gaining green eyes and the wildlife there going crazy.

Sure, and how much do we know about Eredar history? Because we know that the Well of Eternity mutated the Trolls into another race, so you then appeal to a race whose history we don't know.

And we know the well is not a normal font of arcane magic, and there is nothing saying the eredar changed due to arcane amgic, and they lvied trough thousand years fine.

Additionally, way to put Dalaran as your example when humans explicitly used Arcane magic in accordance with the 4 rules of magic

.

They used, buthte palce still had arcane energy all around, if it was fell, it would corrupt then, like it did with orcs and would ahve done with the blood elves

OK, so this is just an admission of bad faith or, at the very least, splitting hairs to an unbelievable extent. The addiction is part of the ailment caused by Arcane magic which causes the degradation of mortals who use it irresponsibly.

No, addiction is one thing, corruption is other,

1) The Sunwell did not come from the Nightwell, it was created with a vial of water from the Well of Eternity.

Literally was made from the well of eternity.

2) The Nightwell did not come from the Well of Eternity, it was imbued with power from the Eye of Aman'Thul.

another one was amde from the well.

And you said a thing about spliting hairs hum?

Moreover, you're not grasping the fact that it's not just the Well of Eternity that causes side effects, but significantly lesser fonts of Arcane energy. That you missed this, when I think that point was very explicit, isn't great.

Waht lessers?

Yeah, he Kanrethad underwent apotheosis intentionally.

that is what happens when you want too much power, again, with other energies you can do it, in Garrosh mind, you could reach that lv without losing sanity because willpower, with fel you can't

And, one last thing, you think void doesn't consume things?

Never said a thing about that, another strawman

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Because that's the reasoning that's important to Garrosh and because the possibility that you can impose your will on the void and so have it do whatever you want doesn't exist for fel. Fel is 'physical', intent and strength of will play no role. His father and the orcs were given power and then lost everything as the meme says. Garrosh takes power and then uses it to his own aims. Garrosh didn't especially care about fighting the enemies of life or if people using fel ultimately did more good for the world, but if you are the master of that power or if it masters you and if it can be used towards the end of creating a land that serves the orcs. The Void rewards having extremely strong will and has no fallout in the extremely niche cases where you have that kind of will, fel always has side effects and has huge historical baggage for the orcs so one is fine and the other isn't.

It's not even really the object of much interpretation - Garrosh says it outright at the end of 5.1. That the sha is a power that uses the unworthy but that you can hypothetically master it and he means to be the one to do so.

I'm not making any argument about the morality of either, the void is obviously evil and arguably more evil than fel because it actually has intent instead of just being physical, but rather that void suits Garrosh's idea of the orcs as masters of the powers they use more so and what he intended with it was provably possible.

So is the point of this argument that Garrosh isn't an hypocrite, just self centered?

[Ardenaso]

if Garrosh didn't put Darkspears and Theramore civilians on his underground Auschwitz he'd be perfect IMO

[Super Dickmann]

So is the point of this argument that Garrosh isn't an hypocrite, just self centered?

Pretty much. My point is his position is coherent and internally consistent.

@Ardenaso

They should be grateful Garrosh wasted a year feeding and clothing them for a siege he never expected to take place instead of just capping them in the head like a normal person. The Kul Tirans doing the same thing to Horde prisoners later on yet receiving no negative comments about it wouldn't get that kind of treatment.

[Cosmic Janitor]

if Garrosh didn't put Darkspears and Theramore civilians on his underground Auschwitz he'd be perfect IMO

The novel in general made the whole thing so much worse. His roving bands of ethnic and dissident "cleansers" evoked so much nazi parallels, if they had abstained from going there he migtht have been a less awfull character, but they turned him full on orc dictator. Much like the banshee bitch right now, Blizzard goes way too far with the evil Horde leaders in their rush to get a quick villain everyone can hate. That they made him the standard face of the warrior in heartstone was just hillarious after that.

[gcsmith]

Pretty much this and this final words were whining about thrall and others beause they didn't support his orc supremacy.

To be fair, this is the one thing I think he was right about. Thrall made him leader when Garrosh didn't want it, then left, then refused to take any responsibility for his actions even when all his advisors and Jaina, someone who he owned a huge debt to, begged him to intervene.

Garrosh was right when he said Thrall made him. Who was it that told Garrosh that Grommash, a genocidal nut job who enslaved his entire people was good? Thrall, all because he did one good thing at the end. Who knew that when you tell a struggling teen that his genocidal dad was a hero, then put him in charge, he'd start acting like what you told him his dad was?

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Pretty much. My point is his position is coherent and internally consistent.

But see, again, the issue I have is that you say it like it is a good thing. Also the whole thing where his entire set of ethics was completely malleable until it stuck and it's really the "I have always been consistent" lie he tells himself by retconing his own moral stances in order to have always been right.

Less "coherent and internally consistent" and more "unwilling to accept any flaws with his actions"

[Cosmic Janitor]

To be fair, this is the one thing I think he was right about. Thrall made him leader when Garrosh didn't want it, then left, then refused to take any responsibility for his actions even when all his advisors and Jaina, someone who he owned a huge debt to, begged him to intervene.

Garrosh was right when he said Thrall made him. Who was it that told Garrosh that Grommash, a genocidal nut job who enslaved his entire people was good? Thrall, all because he did one good thing at the end. Who knew that when you tell a struggling teen that his genocidal dad was a hero, then put him in charge, he'd start acting like what you told him his dad was?

You forget all the times Thrall showed him to lead people in Wrath, that violence and rushing ahead are not the choices of a good leader. He knew exactly what was expected of him, he just chose to ignore it and revel in his pride. Thrall's mistake was to ever trust a retarded orc with anger issues just because of a stupid parade they threw for Garrosh returning from Northrend despite pretty much achieving jack shit on his own there (let's be real the whole stituation was utterly contrived and nonsencial).

[cparle87]

You cannot control fel magic, it corrupts you anyway, you can control th void/shadow magic. The heart didn't corrupt him.

If that's the case, why is the Council of the Black Harvest on our side? The fact that playable warlocks and good warlocks in canon exist debunks your statement.

[Super Dickmann]

But see, again, the issue I have is that you say it like it is a good thing. Also the whole thing where his entire set of ethics was completely malleable until it stuck and it's really the "I have always been consistent" lie he tells himself by retconing his own moral stances in order to have always been right.

Less "coherent and internally consistent" and more "unwilling to accept any flaws with his actions"

I think the only moral position were they both real things would be to never practice either, but I will say that the writing does endorse believing you can control say, the void to achieve your political aims, see Alleria and that future narratives essentially dismantle any moral outrage we're supposed to feel re: the Heart.

The one time Garrosh's stance on fel was inconsistent were two bits of lore between Mists launch and 5.1 when the writers were throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the character to demonize him, but demonize him without any kind of narrative coherence. Garrosh's transition to antagonist is otherwise based on some contrivances, but holds together internally, but these two stand out as just being plain bad writing. These would be one warlock officer in the occupation of the Darkspear Isle in 5.1 and one Alliance-only quest where he has an army of undead and warlocks serve as a vanguard in Jade Forest in 5.0. Past that, he's always been hostile to warlocks to the point where he nearly kills the PC for using it in Cataclysm and does actually kill the warlocks when the rest of the Horde defects.

[Syegfryed]

If that's the case, why is the Council of the Black Harvest on our side? The fact that playable warlocks and good warlocks in canon exist debunks your statement.

The fel magic still affect then, plus, the playable and the good warlocks never cross the boundaries for power, if they did they become demons.

And again, this is all meta knowledge, the characters don't have it, we have to look in their eyes, for orcs fel magic is a taboo and the reason they got enslaved by the LEgion, void isn't, Void you can become a "monster" but still have your free will if you are strong enough.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I think the only moral position were they both real things would be to never practice either, but I will say that the writing does endorse believing you can control say, the void to achieve your political aims, see Alleria and that future narratives essentially dismantle any moral outrage we're supposed to feel re: the Heart.

The one time Garrosh's stance on fel was inconsistent were two bits of lore between Mists launch and 5.1 when the writers were throwing everything but the kitchen sink at the character to demonize him, but demonize him without any kind of narrative coherence. Garrosh's transition to antagonist is otherwise based on some contrivances, but holds together internally, but these two stand out as just being plain bad writing. These would be one warlock officer in the occupation of the Darkspear Isle in 5.1 and one Alliance-only quest where he has an army of undead and warlocks serve as a vanguard in Jade Forest in 5.0. Past that, he's always been hostile to warlocks to the point where he nearly kills the PC for using it in Cataclysm and does actually kill the warlocks when the rest of the Horde defects.

My point is that Garrosh's apparent consistency is borne out of his stubborness to admit any fault rather than a strong moral character, as in, he will justify anything as long as it suits his current need and view and won't admit otherwise. That we can say "well, I guess his PoV about Void and Fel makes sense" doesn't make his previous character leaps any less "hypocritical", and no, we can just call the things that don't fit out of character when it's almost a pattern that he's against something until he can make use it/it's different because he is doing it. And that rings true for both the mana bomb and the usage of Warlocks -might as well use them now to inflict losses on the alliance and then just get rid of any when the time comes-

That's the point, his stubborness is not a strong moral core, is just him justifying himself superior to the rest because if he does something then it's right.

[cparle87]

The fel magic still affect then, plus, the playable and the good warlocks never cross the boundaries for power, if they did they become demons.

And again, this is all meta knowledge, the characters don't have it, we have to look in their eyes, for orcs fel magic is a taboo and the reason they got enslaved by the LEgion, void isn't, Void you can become a "monster" but still have your free will if you are strong enough.

Except fel ISN'T taboo magic to the orcs, just to Garrosh in particular. The fact that there are still in lore Horde orc warlocks is proof of this. Garrosh axing all the ones he could get ahold of in Orgrimmar notwithstanding. Also, if fel magic was taboo then there's no way anyone would've accepted help from the demon hunters, who take it quite a few steps further than most warlocks do.

[Syegfryed]

Except fel ISN'T taboo magic to the orcs, just to Garrosh in particular. The fact that there are still in lore Horde orc warlocks is proof of this.

Oh, you mean that warlocks existing in the shadows, hiding their affairs to the common folk and only kept around because the horde needs then is not a proof of that not being a taboo for orcs?

Literaly, the first interaction the warlock trainer says that:

And now you've joined our ranks also. Don't misunderstand, <name>. Just because you have access to power that many will be jealous of, it does not mean you will be accepted easily. Thrall allows our kind into Orgrimmar because we are still his fellow kin--he cannot turn his back on us, or we would become as pathetic as the humans who enslaved him. My point is: be careful. You can be powerful, but if you are foolish, then you are as good dead.

Garrosh axing all the ones he could get ahold of in Orgrimmar notwithstanding. Also, if fel magic was taboo then there's no way anyone would've accepted help from the demon hunters, who take it quite a few steps further than most warlocks do.

They only accept that because they need do, not because they wanted to, big difference

[cparle87]

Oh, you mean that warlocks existing in the shadows, hiding their affairs to the common folk and only kept around because the horde needs then is not a proof of that not being a taboo for orcs?

Literaly, the first interaction the warlock trainer says that:






They only accept that because they need do, not because they wanted to, big difference

Apparently we have a different definition of the word taboo, and mine is stronger than yours. Mine typically involves people refusing to talk to you and/or calling the guards to kill/arrest you on sight. Something no one in the Horde or Alliance has done, sans Garrosh.