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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkeon View Post
    But it's okay as she'll either be banished or jailed (loot pinata down the line once she goes crazy tm), redeemed or killed.
    If she does become Arbiter, as the 'fake leaks' suggest, would that be considered punishment or redemption?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Broken Fox View Post
    Isnt she a high elf again? She'll prolly just be seen as redeemed and reinstated as the Forsaken queen or something.
    And what? Have Forsaken players just accept it? That they butchered her? We lost our city as well just to point that out.

    There is no way going back from that.

    At least none that i can see. They ruined her and the Forsaken. Considering Goldens cheap retcons, i would say the Forsaken are even more fucked than the Night Elves.

  3. #23
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Insofar as I can gather, Sylvanas is essentially (and hypocritically) raging against her plight as revealed in Edge of Night and previously thought that she and the Jailer shared an aim in overturning the current design of life and death - building a new metacosmic machinery that will more fairly and/or justly judge the souls of the dead and so forth. In furtherance of this aim, Sylvanas chose to ally herself with the Jailer and his Mawsworn despite being indirectly responsible for her own plight in becoming an undead Banshee. However, the Jailer's methods kept getting more and more extreme; from his domination and enslavement of Anduin to the fact that the Jailer was possibly withholding Nathanos' soul from her. Finally, following the events in the Sanctum of Domination and the attack on the Arbiter at Oribos, the Jailer reveals himself to be uninterested in Sylvanas' goals and more in forcing the universe to kneel at his feet, leading to her reaction and attempt to attack him when he says that "all shall serve," in an ironic echo of the Lich King.

    That several metric tons of red flags should've been waving in her face from the get-go aside, Sylvanas' alliance with the Jailer was based on her misunderstanding (and likely the Jailer's intentional misrepresentation) of his goals concerning "remaking the universe." The Jailer doesn't give a shit about universal justice, he just wants vengeance against his fellow Eternal Ones, and to take his place as the ruler of all reality by usurping whatever power or knowledge resides within the mysterious Sepulcher.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Insofar as I can gather, Sylvanas is essentially (and hypocritically) raging against her plight as revealed in Edge of Night and previously thought that she and the Jailer shared an aim in overturning the current design of life and death - building a new metacosmic machinery that will more fairly and/or justly judge the souls of the dead and so forth. In furtherance of this aim, Sylvanas chose to ally herself with the Jailer and his Mawsworn despite being indirectly responsible for her own plight in becoming an undead Banshee. However, the Jailer's methods kept getting more and more extreme; from his domination and enslavement of Anduin to the fact that the Jailer was possibly withholding Nathanos' soul from her. Finally, following the events in the Sanctum of Domination and the attack on the Arbiter at Oribos, the Jailer reveals himself to be uninterested in Sylvanas' goals and more in forcing the universe to kneel at his feet, leading to her reaction and attempt to attack him when he says that "all shall serve," in an ironic echo of the Lich King.

    That several metric tons of red flags should've been waving in her face from the get-go aside, Sylvanas' alliance with the Jailer was based on her misunderstanding (and likely the Jailer's intentional misrepresentation) of his goals concerning "remaking the universe." The Jailer doesn't give a shit about universal justice, he just wants vengeance against his fellow Eternal Ones, and to take his place as the ruler of all reality by usurping whatever power or knowledge resides within the mysterious Sepulcher.
    While that almost makes sense, I'm still on team "Bad Writing" to explain BFA/Slands Sylvanas.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If she does become Arbiter, as the 'fake leaks' suggest, would that be considered punishment or redemption?
    While with Illidian they clarify that being a careclero is complete shit. Which is almost 30% of Maiev's story.

    Nade tells us that being a referee is some kind of punishment. So if those are the two options it is a prize.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    When did Blizzard sell us this? The time that she was partnered up with the Jailer and he was the one actually telling her how to go about things? It’s more that Blizzard has sold that the Jailer is the 4D chess player and Sylvanas was his pawn while thinking she was his partner.
    Her characterization starts in Warcraft 3 and continued into her role as The Banshee Queen, where she was portrayed as a morally grey character that was cunning, manipulative, and ruthless in pursuit of her goals. She was an interesting character with mysterious side agendas. And then she took the limelight in Legion and nothing she's done since has made much sense and a lot just has zero explanation (did they ever even say what the point of that lantern Helya gave her was? Or wtf the bargain they made was?).

  7. #27
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    While that almost makes sense, I'm still on team "Bad Writing" to explain BFA/Slands Sylvanas.
    It's not mutually exclusive with bad writing - Sylvanas' characterization, and her overall intelligence, had to be moderately to severely contorted in order to justify her willingness to embrace the Jailer as a patron. Add to that her apparent blindness to the Jailer's very nature, actions, and history and it's easy to see why people would criticize this story arc. The same holds true with BfA for a number of reasons.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    Her characterization starts in Warcraft 3 and continued into her role as The Banshee Queen, where she was portrayed as a morally grey character that was cunning, manipulative, and ruthless in pursuit of her goals. She was an interesting character with mysterious side agendas. And then she took the limelight in Legion and nothing she's done since has made much sense and a lot just has zero explanation (did they ever even say what the point of that lantern Helya gave her was? Or wtf the bargain they made was?).
    She’s also been shown to lose every major battle after Arthas. Even for Teldrassil she was shown to have needed Saurfang’s expertise. She lost personal 1v1s against Arthas, Saurfang, and lost major battles to the Alliance. Most recently being the Forsaken’s home.
    As stated previously most of her decisions, since Arthas, have been made or influenced by the Zovaal. This would insinuate that he has been playing chess while Sylvanas being as playing checkers. She got outplayed.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    Her disgust towards the hypocritical and oppressing system of the Shadowlands is literally the only thing you can give her credit for. Of all the countless bad things she has as a character, why make a thread to bash on the one thing she had "right"?
    It's pretty hollow when she then fully supports the guy who is far, far worse than any of the afterlives.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    While that almost makes sense, I'm still on team "Bad Writing" to explain BFA/Slands Sylvanas.
    This is more outlining the thought process behind the story and not whether it's actually successful in terms of execution. Needless to say though, this kind of story is conceptually very flawed with a villain like the Jailer who's practically designed to look like the amalgamation of every mustache-twirling villain we've ever seen and with a character like Sylvanas who just burned an entire civilization down while also wanting to enslave her own sisters (and the rest of the world) as undead an expansion prior.

    On paper this story could work but with the characterisation of Sylvanas and the lack thereof in case of the Jailer it just falls flat on its face.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    It's pretty hollow when she then fully supports the guy who is far, far worse than any of the afterlives.
    Well up to the point it is unable to deny that he is the baddest of bad guys. She is a smart as a bag of bricks but turns on the jailer the moment it is undeniable that the guy won't change the system, meaning her principle is still intact, even though this cements her as one of the most mentally challenged characters in the entire warcraft universe, which in itself is quite a feat, considering most of them seem to have a single braincell.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Well up to the point it is unable to deny that he is the baddest of bad guys. She is a smart as a bag of bricks but turns on the jailer the moment it is undeniable that the guy won't change the system, meaning her principle is still intact, even though this cements her as one of the most mentally challenged characters in the entire warcraft universe, which in itself is quite a feat, considering most of them seem to have a single braincell.
    Gaining vaguely defined principles while losing anything resembling intelligence is pretty shit tier character development. Not aiming this at you, more that this sort of writing is indefensible.

    What amazes me is that, did nobody at Blizzard think this even vaguely through? They design the most obviously evil character they can in terms of visuals, voice and modus operandi, have him not even try to hide that he's a massive S-tier douchebag and have in-universe characters go at length about how he's a big baddy that must be stopped because of his badness, and then they have this guy effortlessly deceive a character that was at least supposed to come across as a ruthless tactician who has plans within plans. Did they seriously except anybody to swallow this plot and go "ah, indeed, I too would have thought that the obviously evil looking guy who gleefully dooms an entire reality's dead to eternal slavery and torture was actually a force for positive change!". That's all without considering the whole "created the Lich King" and "allied with Kel'thuzad" angles even.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Sure they would have much like with Kael,Vashj and Illidan, but she would have been gone for years.
    That makes it a win / win situation in my book.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    If she does become Arbiter, as the 'fake leaks' suggest, would that be considered punishment or redemption?
    Honestly, can't even tell. That is a good question.

    Definitely not an outcome I'd feel satisfied with, especially if they wouldn't be able to pull it off neatly.

  15. #35
    Dreadlord Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Basically there is no excuse for what she has done. No even point comenting because everything was already written how stupid and selfish she is. She has been also warned many times to not do this. Also, I don't think life and death cycle is flawed. It's completly alright. Something has to die in order to give space for something new. What's the motivation behind destroying Darnassus? Let me quess: Azerite? Why she got stopped so late?!
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2021-07-14 at 11:09 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    It's pretty hollow when she then fully supports the guy who is far, far worse than any of the afterlives.
    It is a contradiction yes, that's why most of us gave up on the story after the latest development.

  17. #37
    I am Murloc! Atrea's Avatar
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    Look, I'll be the first to say that WoW has never been an example of good writing.

    However, if you can't see the parallels between recent real-world events and what is going on with WoW's story - as a sort of social commentary on them - then you're hardly in a position to be critiquing.

    The relationship between the Jailer and Sylvanas echoes relationships we have seen in real life over the past several years.

    Sylvanas was presented as an intelligent, cunning strategist, who was always two steps ahead of her opponents. She then falls in with The Jailer, who is the equivalent of WoW's "Satan". She thinks she's fighting on the side of freedom and liberty when she does what she does, and she casts her lot in with him.

    This seeming contradiction is repeated in the real world with supporters of former US President Donald Trump. You have people who, all things considered, are brilliant human beings, who have somehow inexplicably been seduced by someone who embodies the opposite of everything "good" and "decent".

    How do we reconcile these facts? How is it possible that someone like, for example, Dr. Buzz Aldrin - one of the world's most intelligent minds, one of the world's greatest living legends, a space pioneer - could actually support Donald Trump? Isn't he supposed to be smart? Were we wrong about him being smart before? Or are we wrong to judge him as dumb now?

    The same goes for Sylvanas and The Jailer.

    How did someone so smart fall for such an obvious conman? Was Sylvanas always dumb, and we just thought she was smart? Or is she still smart, and we're just not considering that there's more to a situation than the black and white facts?

    This isn't even particularly good commentary on social issues, but like I said, if you haven't been able to draw the parallel by now, then you're not anyone whose opinion on writing I care about.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Gaining vaguely defined principles while losing anything resembling intelligence is pretty shit tier character development. Not aiming this at you, more that this sort of writing is indefensible.
    Well it fits well within the bar of warcraft lore, it is extremely superficial and story beats are seen pretty much from a mile away, making it highly predictable. Think of the most superficial half assed scenario and you are right usually 80% of the time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    That makes it a win / win situation in my book.
    Indeed her character wasn't utterly butchered yet and they could have easily replaced her at the time, with any forsaken, thus explaining the drastic shift in forsaken society in cata, since Sylvanas's goal was solely focused on vengeance, the average forsaken should have wanted to continue existing, even if only to spite the living.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Well it fits well within the bar of warcraft lore, it is extremely superficial and story beats are seen pretty much from a mile away, making it highly predictable. Think of the most superficial half assed scenario and you are right usually 80% of the time.

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    Indeed her character wasn't utterly butchered yet and they could have easily replaced her at the time, with any forsaken, thus explaining the drastic shift in forsaken society in cata, since Sylvanas's goal was solely focused on vengeance, the average forsaken should have wanted to continue existing, even if only to spite the living.
    Sure, none of us are expecting Hemmingway here, but we're used to characters acting sorta like morons here, not like braindead imbeciles. Even this setting must have some standards.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Sure, none of us are expecting Hemmingway here, but we're used to characters acting sorta like morons here, not like braindead imbeciles. Even this setting must have some standards.
    This kind of writing has always existed, the only thing that changed is its quantity. Warcraft characters have almost always been brain-damaged idiots from the get go. Or one could say they at least tried in the past with at least a handful of characters.

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