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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, i'm not seeing any seashells there. Are you sure you're not misreading something?
    Quote Originally Posted by olddog View Post
    In the bottom left corner there's something like a scallop there. That's the only seashell I can find.

  2. #42
    Brewmaster Nemah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
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  3. #43
    Scarab Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    "haha, you bought chronicles, lol"

    -The writer of this book
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    So...what's the great cycle?

    The name implies that there some cyclical event going on, yet it's just the "Spiritual Force" (meaning, Spirit, Decay, Air, Fire, Water, Earth) displayed in a cyclical fashion, without any cyclical behavior to them.

    There is fucking nothing.
    Its the great BIcycle. Manufactred by Schwinn in Cleveland, Ohio. Its really great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tincjin View Post
    I honestly want to be interested in this, but I lost my respect for the lore after they announced that the Chronicles is not fully accurate since all of the sudden it was from the Titan's POV.
    I told everyone that would happen the second it was released.

    They will ALWAYS leave the door open to altering the cosmology because they want to make new stuff. You'll never know the complete history. It just keeps going and going. Its like the tv show LOST, where you have a strange island run by a smoke monster, then a frozen donkey wheel, then a cave of light, deep and deeper down, never really getting an explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mungho View Post
    In the bottom left corner there's something like a scallop there. That's the only seashell I can find.
    there are 4 seashells, 1 in each corner. they are not the entire picture, but a small icon right smack in the center of each corner picture. The top right one and bottom left one looks like a Shell gas station symbol. The bottom right one looks like a spiral mollusk shell. The top left one looks like a shell from a side angle.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    there are 4 seashells, 1 in each corner. they are not the entire picture, but a small icon right smack in the center of each corner picture. The top right one and bottom left one looks like a Shell gas station symbol. The bottom right one looks like a spiral mollusk shell. The top left one looks like a shell from a side angle.
    I thought he was talking about the new image. The old one always had those, so they aren't really notable at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Its the great BIcycle. Manufactred by Schwinn in Cleveland, Ohio. Its really great.
    Don't be silly. Americans have no clue how to build bicycles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    They will ALWAYS leave the door open to altering the cosmology because they want to make new stuff.
    They pretty much have to unless they want paint themselves in a corner. Making a complete cosmology only works when you have a specific end in mind from the start, and WoW already went way farther than they ever expected.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Candy Cough View Post
    Is no one noticing the Seashells in the corners?
    I believe they are the sigils of the First Ones. They've always been there, and now Blizz can retcon say they've always been the first ones. That's why they're slightly different in the new map, as they've been further fleshed out.

  7. #47
    Bit disappointing - I thought there would be something 'outside the cycle' revealed, with Ion talking about zooming out and all that.

    So they added more detail to life and death - is that Elune in Life? but interestingly no Zoval on here. The other cosmic forces are more sparse than our old cosmology chart, I guess the brokers don't know as much as they like to think they do

  8. #48
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyTides View Post
    Bit disappointing - I thought there would be something 'outside the cycle' revealed, with Ion talking about zooming out and all that.

    So they added more detail to life and death - is that Elune in Life? but interestingly no Zoval on here. The other cosmic forces are more sparse than our old cosmology chart, I guess the brokers don't know as much as they like to think they do
    Probably too soon to judge that based on a few out-of-context page screenshots. It's a pretty hefty reference tome, all in all.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Which is most likely the point. It's not there to tell us anything about the cosmology. It's there to tell us how the denizens of the Shadowlands view the cosmos, the Brokers in particular.
    If it's not there to tell us anything new, why bother?

  10. #50
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    If it's not there to tell us anything new, why bother?
    It's there to
    tell us how the denizens of the Shadowlands view the cosmos, the Brokers in particular.
    Since, you know, they kinda have to establish the Narrators own understanding and view on things.

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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    If it's not there to tell us anything new, why bother?
    Are you deliberately ignoring the third sentence?

  12. #52
    I think that people are sleeping on the fact that Brokers consider themselves THE "Order" of the Shadowlands: see the Tazavesh Gearglider's logo being the exact same as their symbol for Order.

    There's a very good chance they are Titan creations or were created by the same force that made the Titans. Why else would they take their place?

  13. #53
    Scarab Lord Auxis's Avatar
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    I think what interests me most about the sea-shells is that they/the corners have been distinctly decorated with 4 different elements: bottom right is Chained, like the chains in the Death cosmology, top left has what looks like vines, bottom left is draped in runic wrappings, while the top right has floating rocks/crystals and what looks like a constellation of some description.

    I wonder why? Why would they make those 4 corners be decorated like each one belongs to one of the 6 greater Forces, while there are only 4 corners but 6 Forces?
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodok View Post
    >"Your chart is wrong and biased!"
    >draws the exact same chart except THEIR faceless cosmic force is BIGGER and COOLER than the others
    >refuses to elaborate further
    >leaves
    This is pretty much everything that I've gotten from the Brokers so far.

    If we look at the Chronicles cosmology as being "ordered" by the Titans, then this cosmology makes perfect sense. The brokers are aghast at the existence of mortals in their plane because it upends the cosmology as they understand it. Of course they will see the great cycle of life and death as most important because that is how they envision it; it is their view of the universe. The titans (and honestly how we see the Universe) is more balanced between the forces because they all interact with the mortal plane equally.

    This isn't some 'retcon' of the lore. It's simply an alien's viewpoint of the universe as they experience it.

    I do like how the Brokers align "order" and "light" with Death, while the titans align death with "shadow" and "disorder". The brokers are the ordered part of Death, after all.

    That some of you lot can't comprehend different narratives from different narrators as representing different lived experience, and using that as a cudgel to wilfully misunderstand where the writing team is going with all this makes me sad.
    Last edited by Steelangel; 2021-07-15 at 04:31 PM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    I think that people are sleeping on the fact that Brokers consider themselves THE "Order" of the Shadowlands: see the Tazavesh Gearglider's logo being the exact same as their symbol for Order.

    There's a very good chance they are Titan creations or were created by the same force that made the Titans. Why else would they take their place?
    Don't forget about the Ancient Broker Mask description
    "The headpiece of a broker of unknown origin, it looks significantly different than the brokers you've met in Oribos."
    And the quest giver response:
    "This... is not what I expected. It is similar in appearance to our people, yet so very different. Are there others of our kind out there? Who are they, and where do they reside? Why have they not made contact with us? Or are they hiding themselves purposefully? Is this a history we knew but have forgotten? I have so many questions."

    IMO they're far more important than they let on / know. Might even be a case that the Brokers we see in-game are "degenerated" versions of whatever they were originally created as, just like so many Azeroth races are degenerated from something else. I'm also a bit worried we might never know because I'm not sure how this Broker storyline will fit in to the overall narrative going forward - unless every Shadowlands patch has a "side plot" involving them separate from the Jailer plot.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverware View Post
    Don't forget about the Ancient Broker Mask description
    "The headpiece of a broker of unknown origin, it looks significantly different than the brokers you've met in Oribos."
    And the quest giver response:
    "This... is not what I expected. It is similar in appearance to our people, yet so very different. Are there others of our kind out there? Who are they, and where do they reside? Why have they not made contact with us? Or are they hiding themselves purposefully? Is this a history we knew but have forgotten? I have so many questions."

    IMO they're far more important than they let on / know. Might even be a case that the Brokers we see in-game are "degenerated" versions of whatever they were originally created as, just like so many Azeroth races are degenerated from something else. I'm also a bit worried we might never know because I'm not sure how this Broker storyline will fit in to the overall narrative going forward - unless every Shadowlands patch has a "side plot" involving them separate from the Jailer plot.
    I think it would be a pretty simple climax of the overall First One and Ve'nari storylines if the First One plane is where we are going next, which seems to be the case considering where Zovaal went (first one portal). We will probably meet their ancestors there.

  17. #57



    Symbols of the Moon in Death and Life chart.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by olddog View Post
    So, basically, they shifted the focus from Light vs Void being the big deal of the storyline to Life vs Death.

    They seem to believe that the Arbiter represents Death, and that the Eternal serpents (or whatever they're called) represent the struggle between life and Death as they feature in both cosmic forces, chasing each other.

    Light and Arcane are extremely bright, so i guess they view them as good?

    Death, Disorder and Shadow are darker (Shadow the most, Disorder second, and Death the least), but not to the point that they seem very evil (still brownish).

    What's interesting is that Arcane is represented by a cogwheel. Does that mean that visiting a Titan Homeworld, like they insinuated, would introduce playable Tinkers? remains to be seen..

    The Life cosmic force is mainly a tree, some animals, what looks to be the sun, and a half crescent moon in it. So, basically, the World Trees, the Wild Gods, An'she and Elune.

    On top of all of that, the Elements are in the middle. Not just some small and insignificant force, but a very accentuated one (in color). That means that my thread about them being more relevant than they seem was true after all.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  19. #59
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    Refined my ass, rotated and reduced more like it. Also with how they've presented the Shadowlands this expansion I would've expected the Brokers to represent the cosmology as a line that consists of all the other powers with a separate big circle of DEATH looming over everything else with how much it seems to be at odds with everything else. Also inb4 "The Brokers haven't a clue about what the actual set up is." from Danuser.
    Elune: "My sister needed Anima so I let my favoured people die. What is this 'Maw' you speak of?"
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  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Leodok View Post
    >"Your chart is wrong and biased!"
    >draws the exact same chart except THEIR faceless cosmic force is BIGGER and COOLER than the others
    >refuses to elaborate further
    >leaves
    Actually, their force is as big as Life's tbh. High implications of Life being a big factor either later this patch or next patch. No coincidence they're setting up a Pantheon of Life or something like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mungho View Post
    In the bottom left corner there's something like a scallop there. That's the only seashell I can find.
    The Old God looking Maw thing is also something I think is used for Geometrical shit. The Seashell also works there. So maybe it's difference usages of the Geometric symbols of existence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    So, basically, they shifted the focus from Light vs Void being the big deal of the storyline to Life vs Death.

    They seem to believe that the Arbiter represents Death, and that the Eternal serpents (or whatever they're called) represent the struggle between life and Death as they feature in both cosmic forces, chasing each other.

    Light and Arcane are extremely bright, so i guess they view them as good?

    Death, Disorder and Shadow are darker (Shadow the most, Disorder second, and Death the least), but not to the point that they seem very evil (still brownish).

    What's interesting is that Arcane is represented by a cogwheel. Does that mean that visiting a Titan Homeworld, like they insinuated, would introduce playable Tinkers? remains to be seen..

    The Life cosmic force is mainly a tree, some animals, what looks to be the sun, and a half crescent moon in it. So, basically, the World Trees, the Wild Gods, An'she and Elune.

    On top of all of that, the Elements are in the middle. Not just some small and insignificant force, but a very accentuated one (in color). That means that my thread about them being more relevant than they seem was true after all.
    Light and Shadow were the big causes originally as, VIA the Titans PoV, they thought those 2 forces created all existence. However, from what we know now, the true makers of existence are the First Ones which brought themselves together to create Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, and Disorder to create existence. They also walked the Cosmos to bring about relics, machinery, etc to keep the shit together. The Broker here just assumes Life and Death are the most important two of all, especially since they are also connected to the other powers, and Void sees Death as "the enemy of all", while Elune (A life being) is connected to order and light.

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