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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Tincjin View Post
    I honestly want to be interested in this, but I lost my respect for the lore after they announced that the Chronicles is not fully accurate since all of the sudden it was from the Titan's POV. (Despite it being advertised as the Bible of WoW when it came out).

    How am I supposed to be intrigued when there are chances you'll recton yet another book in a few years? Same BS happened with Before the Storm.
    Considering the titans were also likened to the gods of WoW at the time, I think the Bible of WoW analogy still fits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    OT: not much refining there.

    It's just the old chart we had, just turned around a bit.
    Plus some small extra details.

    Which is good, at least they are sticking to it.
    It is not just turned, though. Looking at the main six factions, you cannot derive the new chart from the old with just rotations. It is not reflected, either. They intentionally swapped the placement of life and death with respect to the other forces. It's not clear to me if this suggests the placement is important--with the titans and brokers having some very different understanding of the cosmos--or if the adjacency of cosmic forces is completely irrelevant.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by masterjc View Post
    Tree on Life sections seems to have symbol like of Crescent Moon

    does it confirm anything about Elune?
    There are 3 things we should take into consideration:

    1. Brokers do NOT trust Elune's creations.

    2. There may be a Pantheon of Life, and Elune is heavily connected with her sister in realms despite they themselves having some type of fallout.

    And 3. Elune's influence appears to affect both Death and Life itself, and surprisingly, Elune's moon is above the Arbiter, which she is implied to be the invention of Zovaal's original might ripped from him.

    Which gives me 2 to maybe 3 theories.

    1. Zovaal is An'she (I doubt this highly).

    2. Zovaal and Elune are lovers (I think this is among the most likely).

    Or 3. Zovaal did shit against Life, and Elune is really pissed about everyone, not just Zovaal.

    Either way, I expect 9.2 to give us MANY answers regarding Elune's role in the Cosmos.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The Chronicle is still the Bible of WoW. Did you know the Bible IRL isn't 100% correct or flawless either?

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Light and Shadow were the big causes originally as, VIA the Titans PoV, they thought those 2 forces created all existence. However, from what we know now, the true makers of existence are the First Ones which brought themselves together to create Light, Shadow, Life, Death, Order, and Disorder to create existence. They also walked the Cosmos to bring about relics, machinery, etc to keep the shit together. The Broker here just assumes Life and Death are the most important two of all, especially since they are also connected to the other powers, and Void sees Death as "the enemy of all", while Elune (A life being) is connected to order and light.
    Yes, but i'd wager they are aware of the First Ones. So, why are they not featuring on their cosmological chart?
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Are you deliberately ignoring the third sentence?
    Of course not, but I didn't need a "refined" cosmology to tell me that the Brokers consider the Shadowlands important.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Yes, but i'd wager they are aware of the First Ones. So, why are they not featuring on their cosmological chart?
    Why would they put the First Ones in there? They literally made the Forces, the Pantheons, etc. They authored existence. So of course they'd be above the Cosmic Chart. They made it.

  6. #66
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    At least there is one humourous point that can be taken away from all the retcons and reframed cosmic nonsense and that is despite depicting in both cases of the Chart Order, and by extension the Titans, as an outside force to Reality and 'The Cycle', they still haven't answered why their major representatives have only formed and been born from planets within said Reality or 'Cycle' and in contradiction to all other aspects that proclaim (and in most cases have shown) to have formed and originated from their own realms. Or is the next twist we never were in 'Reality'.
    Elune: "My sister needed Anima so I let my favoured people die. What is this 'Maw' you speak of?"
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    Refined my ass, rotated and reduced more like it. Also with how they've presented the Shadowlands this expansion I would've expected the Brokers to represent the cosmology as a line that consists of all the other powers with a separate big circle of DEATH looming over everything else with how much it seems to be at odds with everything else. Also inb4 "The Brokers haven't a clue about what the actual set up is." from Danuser.
    This is little more than characterization. We already know they don't actually have a clue about how things work. They're making things Death-centric since they're from the Shadowlands.

  8. #68
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    This is little more than characterization. We already know they don't actually have a clue about how things work. They're making things Death-centric since they're from the Shadowlands.
    To be fair the writers are heavily suggesting they think the Brokers are the ones 'solving' the cosmic clusterfuck which they've invented with both how their findings are presented in the game and with the constant pandering that they have the most comprehensive understanding of 'The First Ones' (gasp the thing no one else even mentions or references?!? /obvioussarcasm) and the inclusion of them thinking themselves 'correct' on various things in this Grimoire just adds to that sentiment further. Additionally if it was just meant to be further emphasis on charaterisation wouldn't that be better achieved through further exploration in game rather than creating another book with the express intent of saying "this is how things are" and "look how right we are than (nebulous) others". Also my comment regarding Danuser is in reference to how long till he makes it clear the book is just very expensive tinder in his eyes.
    Elune: "My sister needed Anima so I let my favoured people die. What is this 'Maw' you speak of?"
    Daily reminder that Steam has never had a monopoly on PC Gaming, don't mistake age and popularity for domination.
    Because people don't understand words: Forced and Necessity

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    To be fair the writers are heavily suggesting they think the Brokers are the ones 'solving' the cosmic clusterfuck which they've invented with both how their findings are presented in the game and with the constant pandering that they have the most comprehensive understanding of 'The First Ones' (gasp the thing no one else even mentions or references?!? /obvioussarcasm) and the inclusion of them thinking themselves 'correct' on various things in this Grimoire just adds to that sentiment further. Additionally if it was just meant to be further emphasis on charaterisation wouldn't that be better achieved through further exploration in game rather than creating another book with the express intent of saying "this is how things are" and "look how right we are than (nebulous) others". Also my comment regarding Danuser is in reference to how long till he makes it clear the book is just very expensive tinder in his eyes.
    That's a reach.

    The characterization of the Broker in this book is that he is full of himself and believes he knows everything. This is not an author avatar, the "'refined" cosmology part of is presented almost in a joke-like fashion.

    This feels more like persecution complex or trying to find a jab at the writers than it is accurately looking at the text. The BROKER thinks this is the proper version, not the devs.

    Note how the First Ones ARE ABSENT FROM THIS CHART AS WELL.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Darknessvamp View Post
    To be fair the writers are heavily suggesting they think the Brokers are the ones 'solving' the cosmic clusterfuck which they've invented with both how their findings are presented in the game and with the constant pandering that they have the most comprehensive understanding of 'The First Ones' (gasp the thing no one else even mentions or references?!? /obvioussarcasm) and the inclusion of them thinking themselves 'correct' on various things in this Grimoire just adds to that sentiment further. Additionally if it was just meant to be further emphasis on charaterisation wouldn't that be better achieved through further exploration in game rather than creating another book with the express intent of saying "this is how things are" and "look how right we are than (nebulous) others". Also my comment regarding Danuser is in reference to how long till he makes it clear the book is just very expensive tinder in his eyes.
    You seem to be failing to understand how characterization works. The character is obviously meant to be arrogant and egocentric, thus why he centers the entire chart around his own perspective of reality. They have their "refined" version of the cosmology chart specifically in reference to how he's not really changing anything or offering much new information, but merely making the world revolve around his own viewpoint of things.

    Huh, that's applicable elsewhere here, too.

  11. #71
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    That's a reach.

    The characterization of the Broker in this book is that he is full of himself and believes he knows everything. This is not an author avatar, the "'refined" cosmology part of is presented almost in a joke-like fashion.

    This feels more like persecution complex or trying to find a jab at the writers than it is accurately looking at the text. The BROKER thinks this is the proper version, not the devs.

    Note how the First Ones ARE ABSENT FROM THIS CHART AS WELL.
    I mean other than the fact they introduced with Tazavesh the journals of the Broker detailing how there are multiple Brokers working on understanding the Cosmology, that as a race they make the most mentions to and are presented as being the most knowledgeable of the First Ones (to the point they even have common skepticism that the Sepulcher that keeps getting offhandedly and vaguely mentioned by others exists or is even related to The First Ones as according to their comprehensive understanding) and they are presented as more 'in the know' than anyone else.

    I never said it was an author avatar and the characterisation/attitude isn't unique to the Broker author of the presented entry, we've encountered several now that are full of themselves so it's pretty clear it's a common trait amongst them. As for it being a joke, yes it's possible it can be framed that way as much as it criticises the chronicle as some random deeply flawed book Azerothians have access to now and points out people are stupid for falling for what they consider a fluff/self-promotion piece centered on the Titans as opposed to their 'heavily researched and studied' chart created with the intent of 'impartiality'.

    I can't see how you can separate the Devs belief from the Broker's beliefs on how the cosmology works when they blatantly reference and refer to the same structures and materials when asked about it. Heck they even had an opportunity with the retconning of the Chronicle's context to significantly change it for the Broker's point of view but it's clear to see they are still beholden to that setup and concept just slightly tweaked to their favour.

    I'm also not sure how the First Ones are relevant to the Cosmic Chart or presentation of their aspects considering they're being talked about as creators separate from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    You seem to be failing to understand how characterization works. The character is obviously meant to be arrogant and egocentric, thus why he centers the entire chart around his own perspective of reality. They have their "refined" version of the cosmology chart specifically in reference to how he's not really changing anything or offering much new information, but merely making the world revolve around his own viewpoint of things.

    Huh, that's applicable elsewhere here, too.
    Except the chart isn't revolving around just his world view and view point, heck he doesn't even make reference to having a hand in the creation of said chart only that the "finest minds of our (their) combined cartels" worked to create it with an impartial view. As much as he acts arrogantly over the piece (a behavior that isn't unique to this Broker), his praise of and value in it is divorced from it's creation and the emphasis that one was created with the intention to be theological or a means of worship of a particular group and it's efforts while the other was solely for research clarity and to further their scholars understanding suggests one should be considered more reliable than the other. Sure he may be being overly praiseworthy and smug over a piece created by the Cartels to characterise himself, but the actual creation of the chart is separate from his thoughts that were later influenced by it.
    Last edited by Darknessvamp; 2021-07-15 at 08:19 PM.
    Elune: "My sister needed Anima so I let my favoured people die. What is this 'Maw' you speak of?"
    Daily reminder that Steam has never had a monopoly on PC Gaming, don't mistake age and popularity for domination.
    Because people don't understand words: Forced and Necessity

  12. #72
    Che disappoint me. Didn't they realize that the place of life and death are reversed?

    In the new life is with the shadow of chaos (if you ask me it is better than with order and Light)

    That or am I stupid and someone said it and I didn't realize it?

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Why would they put the First Ones in there? They literally made the Forces, the Pantheons, etc. They authored existence. So of course they'd be above the Cosmic Chart. They made it.
    I don't know... in the outline of the chart?
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Che disappoint me. Didn't they realize that the place of life and death are reversed?

    In the new life is with the shadow of chaos (if you ask me it is better than with order and Light)

    That or am I stupid and someone said it and I didn't realize it?
    It's supposed to be reflecting how the Brokers view things. In their opinions, Death is good and Life is bad. Consequently, Death is buddied up with the "good" forces and Life is buddied up with the "bad".

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Le Conceptuel View Post
    It's supposed to be reflecting how the Brokers view things. In their opinions, Death is good and Life is bad. Consequently, Death is buddied up with the "good" forces and Life is buddied up with the "bad".
    At what point in everything were we told that life is bad?
    Moreover, Sw survives thanks to the things that happen in life and has an important sector dedicated only to helping the living.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I don't know... in the outline of the chart?
    Nope. The relics of Geometry are there tho.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    At what point in everything were we told that life is bad?
    Moreover, Sw survives thanks to the things that happen in life and has an important sector dedicated only to helping the living.
    That's just how beings of Death think. Life beings prolly think similar tbh.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Nope. The relics of Geometry are there tho.
    What for?

    /10 char.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  18. #78
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The whole point is that it's the same but with the sides changed because it's in-story written by a Broker who figures Death is the biggest deal out there. The art is still good but it still gets my craw as much as it did in Chronicle I that the Burning Legion symbol/name is used for Fel. The Burning Legion is an organisation of demons, it's not all demons in general.
    What if.. they just forgot that and burning legion is just fel all together....

  19. #79
    we have the 4 seashells surrounding the chart. plus, we never got full murloc lore in 20 years. something's fishy...

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    What if.. they just forgot that and burning legion is just fel all together....
    Fairly likely, let's face it. A shame too, since the idea of the Legion collapsing into different warbands of demons would be pretty cool.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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