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  1. #161
    The Insane Arafal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    It's not. The six main forces are in different relative positions.
    Because the perspective changed.
    Forces, Elements and pairings are all the same as before.

    Again, it's just 2 different depictions of the same thing.

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  2. #162
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    I think writing is not so bad, thing is we are waiting way too long for the plot to resolve which takes about two expansions and some people who didn’t play Legion or WoTk for example and may not be able to see it as a whole.
    #SaveAlgalon

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Because the perspective changed.
    Forces, Elements and pairings are all the same as before.

    Again, it's just 2 different depictions of the same thing.
    No, not entirely. Death and Life switched positions aside from the whole thing being rotated 60°.

  4. #164
    Stood in the Fire BrintoSFJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I don't think most people understand that being to locked in is bad for writing. Even the Chronicles still left a lot of stuff open, but for some reason many seem to assume that if it isn't mentioned, then it doesn't exist.
    Foreshadowing is the best way to build an open and mysterious universe. I think people are just sick and tired of extremely low amount of content in game and thus not at all in a mood to appreciate the subteltly and nuance of good storytelling of the books. I blame blizzard for this mess.
    Warcraft 3 Reign of Chaos was the game that brought me into gaming. I was 17 years old then, I abhorred gaming before this game. From then on, I became a fan of Warcraft and Blizzard. To see it all go down the drain like this is truly sad for me. No king rules forever but at least some of them went down in history as real badasses. I hoped Blizzard and Warcraft would be one of them but it is no longer possible.

  5. #165
    Even if some rambling idiots fail to understand the very concept of cause and effect on top of not knowing who has access to the Chronicles and this knowledge beacause they can't read or comprehend the English language present in the Grimoire in the first place,
    Light and Shadow still win out as the best contenders both on a physical and a metaphysical level for the origin story itself.
    The question is how they came to be? Enter the 7th, most primordial force.

    The only thing the Titans didn't get right is how Twilight or some other force preceded and caused the diffusion of Light and Shadow, and it all went on from there. Hence the mysterious 7th force of which The Titans assumed it was simply Light all along and the holes being Dark must be something more...
    Yet the Broker perspective is flat out wrong, because it fails to take into account said creation process.
    Last edited by TotemTack; 2021-07-31 at 07:34 PM.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Arafal View Post
    Because the perspective changed.
    Forces, Elements and pairings are all the same as before.

    Again, it's just 2 different depictions of the same thing.
    Yeah. If you look at it that way, that's fair. But we shouldn't say "these two charts are exactly the same", because they aren't. They can be reconciled as being from different perspectives, and that's totally legitimate (and probably intentional).

  7. #167
    Bloodsail Admiral Psychotrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chakah View Post
    He almost got it right.

    Honestly, I'm surprised people didn't look at the chart and realize it was a 2D drawing of a 3D cosmology when chronicle first came out. Guess it was my science background...
    Life/Death is an axis, as is Order/Disorder, and Light/Shadow. You can spin them like a dice and have whichever ones you want 'up'. Here is a visualization of this kind of shape:



    The snakes are pretty much yin/yang, and we've seen this in the 'lifecycle' of the Naaru with each side containing a core of its opposite.

    I don't see anything particularly new or exciting about this version of the chart tbh.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Your last line here is key. Think about it in the context of Yin and Yang.
    Except that still doesnt make sense because the arcane was described as being chaotic and from the nether from WC3 until legion. In classic, npcs even refer to warlocks and necromancers as arcanists. Its just a total about-face to shoehorn in these nonsense cosmic forces.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by czarek View Post
    Order is a cosmic force that is generally manifested as arcane magic. The source of this magic is volatile and requires intense concentration and precision to direct and wield. The counter-balancing force to Order is Disorder. That only means cogwheel heads (Cartel) using force of order. They are in top of cosmology on that power? Dunno. Disorder = fel magic.
    Volatile: liable to change rapidly and unpredictably, especially for the worse.

    How is a force of order volatile? Why do arcane bosses like Anomalous from WOTLK literally shout, "chaos!"

    This was all made up from nothing a few years ago, and completely contradicts how the arcane was portrayed from WC3 onward. Hell, in vanilla mages are described as drawing their power from the nether.

    Make it make sense.
    Some people really like flavor. Occasionally subsisting on nutrient paste just doesn't feel the same as eating a steak. I get that flavor isn't for everyone, but I doubt removing all cosmetic indicators from the game would be appealing either. Nobody want to log in, queue to fight modestly sized blue checked box boss #7, initiate combat using an attack sequence of abilities 1-7 with a 13 beat repeat coda intermittently, and collect item level 630 slot 7 gear either.

  8. #168
    There is something else that nobody mentions.
    But the force of Chaos is the Burning Legion.
    There are few things more orderly and less chaotic in this world than an Army. With chains of command where everyone has to follow orders and not think ... etc.

    Besides, it is not a "horde" it is a "Legion". Of the most orderly forms of the Army.


    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I don't think most people understand that being to locked in is bad for writing. Even the Chronicles still left a lot of stuff open, but for some reason many seem to assume that if it isn't mentioned, then it doesn't exist.
    When you have Retcons every year. If it is not mentioned it does not exist.

    For example the motif for Maiev's Madness in Wolfheart does not exist. The arch has already closed and nothing was ever explained on the subject. One day she just goes crazy.
    It is not explained in the novel. It's not explained in Legion and it doesn't matter anymore.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-09-14 at 12:42 PM.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    There is something else that nobody mentions.
    But the force of Chaos is the Burning Legion.
    There are few things more orderly and less chaotic in this world than an Army. With chains of command where everyone has to follow orders and not think ... etc.

    Besides, it is not a "horde" it is a "Legion". Of the most orderly forms of the Army.
    actually thats fairly obvious: the legion wasnt a natural thing for demons and the cosmic balance.
    chronicles said that before sargeras, demons were unorganized and pretty much fighting everything, including themselves. in other words, as per their nature, completely disordered and chaotic.
    but then sargeras came along. a titan, a being of ORDER. and as per his nature, he ordered the demons. he forced beings of disorder and chaos into an ordered army, fully against their nature.
    thats why the legion was so dangerous to the whole cosmos and the other forces: it wasnt fully disorder, it was a fusion. beings of disorder, united by a being of order. therefore removing their one big weakness: their infighting and inability to work together.
    The crooked shitposter with no eyes is watching from the endless thread.

    From the space that is everywhere and nowhere, the crooked shitposter feasts on memes.

    He has no eyes to see, but he dreams of infinite memeing and trolling.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    actually thats fairly obvious: the legion wasnt a natural thing for demons and the cosmic balance.
    chronicles said that before sargeras, demons were unorganized and pretty much fighting everything, including themselves. in other words, as per their nature, completely disordered and chaotic.
    but then sargeras came along. a titan, a being of ORDER. and as per his nature, he ordered the demons. he forced beings of disorder and chaos into an ordered army, fully against their nature.
    thats why the legion was so dangerous to the whole cosmos and the other forces: it wasnt fully disorder, it was a fusion. beings of disorder, united by a being of order. therefore removing their one big weakness: their infighting and inability to work together.
    Good point. But then that they are demons does not cause them any problem of being ordered in the least.
    Then a being of light can use darkness as if nothing else if it is intruded and one of death create life.

    I do not know but a hundred that this way the forces lose a lot of personality.

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