Refined Cosmology from the Grimoire of the Shadowlands.

[Jshadowhunter]

This is a literal FAQU to anyone who still enjoys lore.
Next time it's gonna be "HAHA! You thought THIS was the real cosmology map on how the universe works? No, THIS was the REAL cosmology map and how the universe works all along."

[BrintoSFJ]

Taliesen made a wonderful video about the cosmology chart. Watch it, it released yesterday.

[huth]

This is a literal FAQU to anyone who still enjoys lore.
Next time it's gonna be "HAHA! You thought THIS was the real cosmology map on how the universe works? No, THIS was the REAL cosmology map and how the universe works all along."

Your post, you mean? Because it's quite clear that the Grimoire is meant to be seen as the biased view of the Brokers, not a neutral observer.

[TotemTick]

It's a remarkably human view, though. They simply assumed everybody else sees the world the same as them.

Why don't you quote my entire post instead of only the first 2 sentences? Are you afraid your point won't be valid anymore if you quote right?

The Broker states that our Chronicle was written from the perspective of the Titans and that "they put themselves first" in regards to the creation of the universe.

This statement is false.

If that was the case, then "Order" would be on the very top not "Light", as is the case in the Titan perspective.

(Instead of this - the Broker's own accusation of putting themselves first is only true for them, since they put the lesser forces of Life and Death on top.)

The Titans - instead of putting themselves first - recognized the two primary forces of Light and Shadow, without which neither Life nor Death, nor the lesser elements like earth, fire, wind or air could have been created.

Until this supposed 7th force that ordered the first 6 is introduced, I'll stick to the first one being closer to the truth.

It is not a "human" or any other mortal view. Although they do assume that everybody sees the world as them, they are still closest to the actual truth simply because they see it right.

Although the Broker perspective is another take on this very same concept, focusing on it from their perspective distorts how the Light and Dark are actually in truth above Death and Life, and thus false. Light and Dark precede life and death simply because there wasn't anything to be alive or dead at that time yet. The dynamic of Light and Dark gave rise to order and disorder and life and death as they began to move against each other.

On the pseudo-physical Twisting Nether, and physical Azeroth's and Draenor's plane, this resulted in the elements, and from them the planets and worlds being formed.

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In fact the false view of life and death having power over everything is the much more mortal viewpoint. The naaru and the old gods are above the cycle.

[huth]

Why don't you quote my entire post instead of only the first 2 sentences? Are you afraid your point won't be valid anymore if you quote right?

Because none of the rest was actually relevant to mine. You also clearly didn't even understand what i said. That actually is quoting right; you don't quote stuff that isn't relevant.

It is not a "human" or any other mortal view. Although they do assume that everybody sees the world as them, they are still closest to the actual truth simply because they see it right.

Did you miss the second sentence? What makes it human is their tacit assumption that everybody sees themselves as the top. "Closest to actual truth" is simply an assumption on your end - we'd need a book based on the First Ones to judge that. Chances are the Brokers are just as much, if not more, off the mark than the Titans.

Not sure what you're even trying to get at with the rest. I wasn't commenting on that.

In fact the false view of life and death having power over everything is the much more mortal viewpoint. The naaru and the old gods are above the cycle.

Well, that's certainly a human view. What the Grimoire presents isn't outright false, it is biased. From the Broker perspective, things certainly look that way, but their big problem is that they summarily dismiss any other option. You're making pretty much the exact same mistake.

[TotemTick]

Because none of the rest was actually relevant to mine. You also clearly didn't even understand what i said. That actually is quoting right; you don't quote stuff that isn't relevant.

Did you miss the second sentence? What makes it human is their tacit assumption that everybody sees themselves as the top. "Closest to actual truth" is simply an assumption on your end - we'd need a book based on the First Ones to judge that. Chances are the Brokers are just as much, if not more, off the mark than the Titans.

Not sure what you're even trying to get at with the rest. I wasn't commenting on that.

Well, that's certainly a human view. What the Grimoire presents isn't outright false, it is biased. From the Broker perspective, things certainly look that way, but their big problem is that they summarily dismiss any other option. You're making pretty much the exact same mistake.

Yet again, you clearly demonstrate your inability to understand a coherent writing consisting of more than two sentences.
Instead of focusing on the origin story which is the central point of my post, and understanding why the first Chronicle is not only universally right but also funded by facts, you painstakingly try and fail to save face by taking everything out of context once more.

Here I write it out to you in two sentences, so you can maybe understand it - they are a bit long but try until you get their meaning:

Light and Shadow are on top and not Death and Life not from a mortal standpoint, but from a factual one (read why in my previous post).
Any other way to look at is irrelevant, because any other look distorts the true alignment of said powers.

Bonus:

The Brokers are wrong.

The mortals got lucky and got it right.

[huth]

Yet again, you clearly demonstrate your inability to understand a coherent writing consisting of more than two sentences.
Instead of focusing on the origin story which is the central point of my post, and understanding why the first Chronicle is not only universally right but also funded by facts, you painstakingly try and fail to save face by taking everything out of context once more.

Here I write it out to you in two sentences, so you can maybe understand it - they are a bit long but try until you get their meaning:

Light and Shadow are on top and not Death and Life not from a mortal standpoint, but from a factual one (read why in my previous post).
Any other way to look at is irrelevant, because any other look distorts the true alignment of said powers.

Bonus:

The Brokers are wrong.

The mortals got lucky and got it right.

And still you fail to understand. When i say human, i don't mean mortal. The Chronicles are not "universally right", they're most definitely incomplete and only show part of the picture, just like the Grimoire. The difference is that the Titans are not as biased as the Brokers.

The mortals aren't even involved in the whole thing. Chronicles are Titan view. Grimoire is Broker. Nobody lucked out.

You have the same issue as the Brokers: You consider your own PoV as the only correct one, and dismiss all others as wrong out of hand, while being blind to your own failings.

[TotemTick]

And still you fail to understand. When i say human, i don't mean mortal. The Chronicles are not "universally right", they're most definitely incomplete and only show part of the picture, just like the Grimoire. The difference is that the Titans are not as biased as the Brokers.

The mortals aren't even involved in the whole thing. Chronicles are Titan view. Grimoire is Broker. Nobody lucked out.

You have the same issue as the Brokers: You consider your own PoV as the only correct one, and dismiss all others as wrong out of hand, while being blind to your own failings.

Who said they are 100% right?

Mortals lucked out in having the closest explanation possible, they are lucky to have the titans and the titans were lucky to have come the closest to this truth.

So you finally managed to read my previous posts and discovered that it was the Titans who gave the mortals their knowledge. Now we're getting somewhere.

Still you can't understand that the Chronicle is closer to the truth than the grimoire, but I suppose nothing is easy for you on your first try anyways.

[huth]

Who said they are 100% right?

and understanding why the first Chronicle is not only universally right

Does that quote seem familiar to you?

Mortals lucked out in having the closest explanation possible, they are lucky to have the titans and the titans were lucky to have come the closest to this truth.

So you finally managed to read my previous posts and discovered that it was the Titans who gave the mortals their knowledge. Now we're getting somewhere.

Why are you assuming the Titans ever told them? As far as we know, the Chronicles aren't available to Azerothians. You're making shit up here.

Still you can't understand that the Chronicle is closer to the truth than the grimoire, but I suppose nothing is easy for you on your first try anyways.

"Closer to the truth" is a meaningless claim in this situation. The Grimoire covers a lot of things the Chronicles don't. Neither has the full truth, and both are questionably correct on things that they both cover. Until we have an actual neutral source to compare to, it's just as possible that despite all their bias, the Brokers got it better than the Titans. Either would be purely by accident, though, since neither can see the full story. And until we can see the full story, we cannot judge who got closest, either.

[TotemTock]

Does that quote seem familiar to you?



Why are you assuming the Titans ever told them? As far as we know, the Chronicles aren't available to Azerothians. You're making shit up here.



"Closer to the truth" is a meaningless claim in this situation. The Grimoire covers a lot of things the Chronicles don't. Neither has the full truth, and both are questionably correct on things that they both cover. Until we have an actual neutral source to compare to, it's just as possible that despite all their bias, the Brokers got it better than the Titans. Either would be purely by accident, though, since neither can see the full story. And until we can see the full story, we cannot judge who got closest, either.

at huth:

Once again you are assuming utter bullshit and at the same time manage to fail to see the big picture.
your inability to reflect on the origin story and how the Chronicle is the correct one, leaves you exposed to your ignorance for everyone to see but you.

Obviously: The titans never told the mortals, all they know, they know from explorers like Brann Bronzebeard whose research helped the mortals create the Chronicle in the first place. Thus your assumption is implicitly false to begin with.

Obviously: The grimoire is right in points which pertain explicitly to the Shadowlands, but it is only a shadow, a distorted perspective of the real alignment of powers beyond their and obviously your understanding.

Once again I recommend - although in full knowledge of your disabilities rather hesitantly:
- To read up on the origin story how the universe came to be - to which the Brokers utterly lack any explanation at all mind you.
- To educate yourself based on those facts, and to try understanding them before spouting nonsense.

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"In the course of my research on the works of the First Ones, a living soul from Azeroth (who purported to be a scholar of some renown) showed me a tome containing an elaborately painted illustration she claimed to be an accurate representation of how the cosmic powers related to one another."

-this quote is taken from the grimoire. The mortals do know of the Chronicles. Brush up on your reading skills as far as your limited iq allows.

[Minikin]

What is this mean?

Oh my God. I've been riding about on the entire cosmic power of order!!!!!!!

[Powerogue]

Taliesen made a wonderful video about the cosmology chart. Watch it, it released yesterday.

I loved it, and absolutely agree with him about the chart being the same but from a very literal different perspective to be intentional.

I would've made a thread on that alone if we didn't already have this one. We have far too many people who take one look at the lore that isn't quite what they expected and recoil like they've been slapped in the face instead of thinking "hmm, I wonder why it's like that?" I prefer the latter, leads to discussions and headcanons instead of bickering and whining.

[Kathranis]

I loved it, and absolutely agree with him about the chart being the same but from a very literal different perspective to be intentional.

I would've made a thread on that alone if we didn't already have this one. We have far too many people who take one look at the lore that isn't quite what they expected and recoil like they've been slapped in the face instead of thinking "hmm, I wonder why it's like that?" I prefer the latter, leads to discussions and headcanons instead of bickering and whining.

I don't think they even take one look at it. If they did they'd immediately see that it's just two different depictions of the same thing.

It's like if what we had before was □ and then they show us ◇ and people started calling it a retcon.

[ohwell]

Oh, so this is related to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhsDlrL0a3c - what do you think about "it's just a matter of perspective" explanation?

Yeah at first I was skeptical until he brought in the 3D idea and as soon as he did I realized it was using the realms almost in the idea of planets(although in the real world most if not all solar systems develop as a disk as well as even galaxies being somewhat a flat spiral, but I don't think galaxies are all on the same plane).

[Raetary]

This is a literal FAQU to anyone who still enjoys lore.
Next time it's gonna be "HAHA! You thought THIS was the real cosmology map on how the universe works? No, THIS was the REAL cosmology map and how the universe works all along."

It's literally just 2 different depictions of the same chart.

Absolutely nothing changed.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Everything in Chronicles is correct, I believe Blizzard has just added things that have been considered less important or omited by most of people.

[Forogil]

Yeah at first I was skeptical until he brought in the 3D idea and as soon as he did I realized it was using the realms almost in the idea of planets(although in the real world most if not all solar systems develop as a disk as well as even galaxies being somewhat a flat spiral, but I don't think galaxies are all on the same plane).

There are different kinds of galaxies - some are spirals like our milky way, which allegedly isn't fully flat but a bit buckled like a pringles chip, but some are elliptical so it could be kind of like that.

Interestingly elliptical galaxies primarily have old stars, and don't rotate as much. Having a rotating cosmological map could be the next step after a 3d-map.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

It's literally just 2 different depictions of the same chart.

Absolutely nothing changed.

It's not. The six main forces are in different relative positions. In the original, the two forces adjacent to death were "disorder" and "shadow". In the broker one, "light" and "order" are the two forces adjacent to death.

[BrintoSFJ]

I loved it, and absolutely agree with him about the chart being the same but from a very literal different perspective to be intentional.

I would've made a thread on that alone if we didn't already have this one. We have far too many people who take one look at the lore that isn't quite what they expected and recoil like they've been slapped in the face instead of thinking "hmm, I wonder why it's like that?" I prefer the latter, leads to discussions and headcanons instead of bickering and whining.

Indeed, people are just too sure about everything these days. When they said that the chronicle was written from the perspective of the Titans, I thought: "Hell yeah! That means there are more wonders to be scene! Nothing is set in stone!". But many people just went: "Ohh my poor money!" or "Ohh my poor chronicle book!". Where did the sense of wonder go? How did people become so bitter?

I get it, the in game story has turned into shit, gameplay even shittier but that has nothing to do with adding more to the game lore as a whole. Poeple really need to keep their hearts and minds open.

[huth]

Indeed, people are just too sure about everything these days. When they said that the chronicle was written from the perspective of the Titans, I thought: "Hell yeah! That means there are more wonders to be scene! Nothing is set in stone!". But many people just went: "Ohh my poor money!" or "Ohh my poor chronicle book!". Where did the sense of wonder go? How did people become so bitter?

I get it, the in game story has turned into shit, gameplay even shittier but that has nothing to do with adding more to the game lore as a whole. Poeple really need to keep their hearts and minds open.

I don't think most people understand that being to locked in is bad for writing. Even the Chronicles still left a lot of stuff open, but for some reason many seem to assume that if it isn't mentioned, then it doesn't exist.