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  1. #161
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    The lazer, xplodium charge, and gravobomb are all things engineers can do.

    Link?

    Furthermore, there is absolutely no fucking depth to the description of HotS abilities so saying they have equals in WoW is speculation AT BEST.
    What?

    Pocket Factory is from WC3, something you also use as "evidence". and Robo goblin DID turn you into a robot in WC3. "The Tinker becomes mechanical, rendering him immune to stun, most offensive spells, and several beneficial spells." You don't even read the shit you use in your arguments lmfao.
    Okay. So Pocket Factory would be a new mechanic in WoW. What's the problem?

    Robo Goblin didn't turn you into a robot, it transformed their mechanical backpack into a mech that they could pilot. Obviously they wouldn't be immune to stuns, offensive spells, and beneficial spells in WoW. Gazlowe doesn't have those immunities in BFA. Please stop being obtuse.

    You are continuing to fucking reach. The lore separates warriors and paladins pretty distinctly. But when it comes to lore, engineers and tinkers have no separation. They are the exact same thing.
    The lore separates Tinkers from the engineering profession as well.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except Metamorphosis is part of Illidan's lore. So again, how is metamorphosis not part of Demon Hunter lore?
    It's part of his lore, so why are we questioning this particular ability?

    I think a better question would be is if Eyebeams is considered canonical in lore, or Double Jump. Neither of these are actually canonical since it is never shown in the story. They are gameplay abstractions.

    They can be rendered canonical if we see them featured as a part of the story, but until they are, these abilities are not considered canonical. Is Metamorphosis shown in the story? Yes, it has been, multiple times. Therefore Metamorphosis is in fact canonical.

    He raised a skeletal dragon and an army of skeleton warriors in the WotLK cinematic. How is he not a necromancer?
    Because he didn't cast any spells to raise his army or the skeletal dragon, he used channeled the runic power of Frostmourne and tapped into the power of the Helm of Domination to command his vast army of undead. We have lore that explains all of this, and exactly why Frostmourne was so dangerous. It literally steals souls, is able to manipulate them, and is vampiric in essence.

    Death Knights aren't spellcasters. Necromancers are spellcasters. The lore has made this difference clear, which is why WoWpedia does not list Arthas as a Necromancer despite the feats you've laid out here.

    Contrary to your own claims, there is zero evidence to support Arthas or Death Knights (Post WC2) being Necromancers.


    But they're still all warriors.
    Of course they are. They're Knights of the Silver Hand, which is still an order of a type of Holy Warrior called a Paladin. And Paladins have abilities that other warriors do not have.

    Tinkers and Engineers are synonymous, and otherwise just a racial title for Gnome, Goblin or Dwarf Engineers.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-07-20 at 03:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Link?



    What?



    Okay. So Pocket Factory would be a new mechanic in WoW. What's the problem?

    Robo Goblin didn't turn you into a robot, it transformed their mechanical backpack into a mech that they could pilot. Obviously they wouldn't be immune to stuns, offensive spells, and beneficial spells in WoW. Gazlowe doesn't have those immunities in BFA. Please stop being obtuse.



    The lore separates Tinkers from the engineering profession as well.
    I've played this game before with you. I'm not wasting time getting links AGAIN simply for you to say "tHeY'rE nOt ThE sAmE".

    And you can say it would be a new mechanic all you want but that's speculation at best. And robo-goblin literally changed the unit's creature type. Read what I fucking posted. If it would do completely different shit then it's not the same ability anymore and you should really never use it as an example ever again as a result.

    Lore absolutely does not fucking separate tinkers and engineers.

  4. #164
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's part of his lore, so why are we questioning this particular ability?
    You said abilities weren't part of the lore. Just pointing out that you're wrong.

    I think a better question would be is if Eyebeams is considered canonical in lore, or Double Jump. Neither of these are actually canonical since it is never shown in the story. They are gameplay abstractions.
    So you're saying that Blizzard would never make a story featuring a Demon Hunter using Eyebeams or Double Jump?

    Death Knights aren't spellcasters. Necromancers are spellcasters. The lore has made this difference clear, which is why WoWpedia does not list Arthas as a Necromancer despite the feats you've laid out here.
    True or false, do Death Knights possess Necromancer abilities?

    Of course they are. They're Knights of the Silver Hand, which is still an order of a type of Holy Warrior called a Paladin. And Paladins have abilities that other warriors do not have.
    And Tinkers have abilities that other engineers do not have.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I've played this game before with you. I'm not wasting time getting links AGAIN simply for you to say "tHeY'rE nOt ThE sAmE".
    Well if they don't have the same name, and don't do the same thing, then they're not the same thing.

    And you can say it would be a new mechanic all you want but that's speculation at best.
    Typically, WC3 and HotS abilities are pretty faithful to their MOBA origins.

    And robo-goblin literally changed the unit's creature type. Read what I fucking posted. If it would do completely different shit then it's not the same ability anymore and you should really never use it as an example ever again as a result.
    And in WoW characters inside mechs are also listed as mechanicals.

    Lore absolutely does not fucking separate tinkers and engineers.
    It separates them from the profession. Also there's Artificers who are definitely not the same as the Goblin and Gnome Tinkers, but they're all Engineers.

    Again, the point is that not all engineers are the same. Just like not all warriors are the same.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You said abilities weren't part of the lore. Just pointing out that you're wrong.
    I said gameplay is an abstraction of lore.

    Metamorphosis is a gameplay abstraction of Illidan's transformation into a Demon. A transformation which is rendered canonical.

    Arthas raising an undead dragon is canonical. "Breath of Sindragosa" is a gameplay abstraction of a canonical piece of lore.

    So you're saying that Blizzard would never make a story featuring a Demon Hunter using Eyebeams or Double Jump?
    I'm saying it's not canonical until they make a story featuring a Demon Hunter using Eyebeams or Double Jump.

    Do you disagree?

    I mean even with what we knew of Rogues, their ability to literally become invisible was not truly canonized until we saw it in Saurfang's cinematic. Until that moment, stealth's invisibility was simply an abstraction of a 'really good ability to hide' in canonical terms. The ability to actually become invisible only became canonical once we saw it enter the story medium, and not simply through abstracted gameplay.


    True or false, do Death Knights possess Necromancer abilities?
    False, because no class possesses other class abilities.

    When we talk about Warlocks having Metamorphosis? The ability itself is not *owned* by any class. It's a Warlock class that is capable of using Metamorphosis through gameplay abstraction of specific lore that tells us they mimic Illidan's form. That is how the lore works, and the ability itself is not *owned* by Demon Hunters.

    Necromancy is not owned by Necromancers. That is why every class in Shadowlands can have Necromantic abilities in their possession without actually being 'Necromancers' in the lore. Lore does not support your asinine theory that classes have possession over abilities.

    That's why I've told you, Deth Lazor, Grav'o'Bomb and Turrets are all simply Engineer NPC abilities in WoW. There is no 'Tinker' class to speak of, and those abilities are not in possession of any one class even if Tinkers did exist.

    And Tinkers have abilities that other engineers do not have.
    Lore-wise, every Tech ability that you refer to in WoW is literally an Engineer ability.

    Tinkers don't formally exist as their own class or title in WoW, they are an extension of Engineer.

    Reforged has retconned this even in Warcraft 3 terms. The Tinker Hero is literally an Engineer, as shown by Engineer Gazlowe using the Tinker hero's model.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  6. #166
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post

    Do you disagree?
    I think we're going off the rails here and need to get back to the point; Abilities are a part of class lore.

    False, because no class possesses other class abilities.

    http://classic.battle.net/war3/undea...romancer.shtml


    When we talk about Warlocks having Metamorphosis? The ability itself is not *owned* by any class. It's a Warlock class that is capable of using Metamorphosis through gameplay abstraction of specific lore that tells us they mimic Illidan's form. That is how the lore works, and the ability itself is not *owned* by Demon Hunters.
    Obviously it was, which is why it was returned to Demon Hunters when they entered the game as a class.

    That's why I've told you, Deth Lazor, Grav'o'Bomb and Turrets are all simply Engineer NPC abilities in WoW. There is no 'Tinker' class to speak of, and those abilities are not in possession of any one class even if Tinkers did exist.
    Lorewise there is a Tinker class. There is a class in Warcraft called Tinker. The WC3 backs that up, as does mentions of the Tinker in lore.

    Lore-wise, every Tech ability that you refer to in WoW is literally an Engineer ability.
    Which is like saying that Paladins abilities are warrior abilities since they are warriors. There are Tinker abilities which come from the Tinker hero in Warcraft.

    Tinkers don't formally exist as their own class or title in WoW, they are an extension of Engineer.
    Again, see High Tinker, The Tinker's Union, Tinker's Court, New Tinkertown, etc.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You said abilities weren't part of the lore. Just pointing out that you're wrong.



    So you're saying that Blizzard would never make a story featuring a Demon Hunter using Eyebeams or Double Jump?



    True or false, do Death Knights possess Necromancer abilities?



    And Tinkers have abilities that other engineers do not have.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well if they don't have the same name, and don't do the same thing, then they're not the same thing.



    Typically, WC3 and HotS abilities are pretty faithful to their MOBA origins.



    And in WoW characters inside mechs are also listed as mechanicals.



    It separates them from the profession. Also there's Artificers who are definitely not the same as the Goblin and Gnome Tinkers, but they're all Engineers.

    Again, the point is that not all engineers are the same. Just like not all warriors are the same.
    They have slightly different names that do the exact same thing. So aside from their name not being 100% the same, they are still the same ability.

    So are you saying that abilities ported over from HotS do the EXACT same thing in WoW?

    Artificer is just the draenei's word for engineer just like vindicator is their name for paladins. Sure they utilize different technology but they are still engineers much like goblin/gnome tinkers. Your warrior comparison is a false equivalency especially since the lore separates the various "warrior" types pretty clearly but when it comes to engineers and tinkers, there is no difference between them in the lore. Lorewise, there is absolutely no tinker class currently and to say there is is just an outright lie.

  8. #168
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    They have slightly different names that do the exact same thing. So aside from their name not being 100% the same, they are still the same ability.
    Please show an item doing the exact same thing as an ability. I'd love to see it.

    So are you saying that abilities ported over from HotS do the EXACT same thing in WoW?
    In general yes, though some abilities are changed for balance purposes.

    Artificer is just the draenei's word for engineer just like vindicator is their name for paladins. Sure they utilize different technology but they are still engineers much like goblin/gnome tinkers.
    Wouldn't a type of engineering that deale with crystals be a different from a type of engineering involving metal and gears?

    There's also Nightborne Artificers that use arcane magic to control and power mechanical constructs and machines. Are they the same as Goblin and Gnome Tinkers, Draenei Artificers using Naaru technology, or the profession?

    Your warrior comparison is a false equivalency especially since the lore separates the various "warrior" types pretty clearly but when it comes to engineers and tinkers, there is no difference between them in the lore. Lorewise, there is absolutely no tinker class currently and to say there is is just an outright lie.
    http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...intinker.shtml

    That's lore.

  9. #169
    Jesus Christ I could shit in you people's bowl of cereal you poured for breakfast and you'd think it was blizzard foreshadowing Tinkers at this point if it looked vaguely like a rocket.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
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    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  10. #170
    Not sure why people are so crazy for tinker class, but at this point I am sure blizzard will put anything in to keep players in..

  11. #171
    The Lightbringer Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Well...we don't know? But...speculation goes back to at least 2013...has to happen any day now, don't you think? ^^

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...r-class-in-WoW
    Teriz has been doing this for 8 years? Jesus christ
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I think we're going off the rails here and need to get back to the point; Abilities are a part of class lore.
    The ones that have been featured in the lore, yes.

    The ones that have not, are not canonical.

    ?


    Obviously it was, which is why it was returned to Demon Hunters when they entered the game as a class.
    The Warlock still has metamorphosis in the lore, and that hasn't changed.

    Lorewise there is a Tinker class. There is a class in Warcraft called Tinker. The WC3 backs that up, as does mentions of the Tinker in lore.
    WC3 refers to Tinkers as Engineers in the lore, as exemplified by Engineer Gazlowe.

    Again, see High Tinker, The Tinker's Union, Tinker's Court, New Tinkertown, etc.
    Yes, as a racial title for gnome and goblin Engineers. That is what that all refers to.

    The profession is also a gameplay abstraction of the lore. Engineer exists well beyond simply the Profession in the lore; since we know it also applies to vendors, trainers and other roles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Please show an item doing the exact same thing as an ability. I'd love to see it.



    In general yes, though some abilities are changed for balance purposes.



    Wouldn't a type of engineering that deale with crystals be a different from a type of engineering involving metal and gears?

    There's also Nightborne Artificers that use arcane magic to control and power mechanical constructs and machines. Are they the same as Goblin and Gnome Tinkers, Draenei Artificers using Naaru technology, or the profession?



    http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...intinker.shtml

    That's lore.
    I already told you I'm not wasting my time posting a link because the last time I did in another thread, you did mental gymnastics to try and invalidate it.

    If the ability is changed, that means it's not the same ability anymore so thank you for proving my point. And it doesn't matter what technology is being used. They're still ALL engineers with tinker just being the word gnomes/goblins use for it.

    That most certainly is not lore because in WoW, all tinkers are engineers according to lore. And not in the same way that paladins are "warriors". Tinker and engineer are synonymous. Whereas death knights and paladins are wildly different on a lore level despite being warrior types.

  14. #174
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The ones that have been featured in the lore, yes.

    The ones that have not, are not canonical.
    So wouldn't Gazlowe's ability to summon and pilot a mech be an example of a lore ability, since he does it in lore?


    ?
    An example of a warcraft necromancer with necromancer abilities.


    The Warlock still has metamorphosis in the lore, and that hasn't changed.
    Which shows how effectively meaningless lore is when we're talking about interactions with classes.

    WC3 refers to Tinkers as Engineers in the lore, as exemplified by Engineer Gazlowe.
    And Paladins are referred to as warriors in the lore multiple times. Again, just an umbrella term.


    Yes, as a racial title for gnome and goblin Engineers. That is what that all refers to.
    Wouldn't a title denote a level of difference between a standard engineer and a Tinker?

    The profession is also a gameplay abstraction of the lore. Engineer exists well beyond simply the Profession in the lore...
    Of course it does. That's the point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I already told you I'm not wasting my time posting a link because the last time I did in another thread, you did mental gymnastics to try and invalidate it.
    There was no trying involved. Saying that an unrelated engineering item is the same as an ability is the height of absurdity.

    If the ability is changed, that means it's not the same ability anymore so thank you for proving my point. And it doesn't matter what technology is being used. They're still ALL engineers with tinker just being the word gnomes/goblins use for it.
    Weren't you just arguing that engineering items that don't have the same name or function as a Tinker ability are the same thing as the Tinker ability?

    You should really make up your mind.

    That most certainly is not lore because in WoW, all tinkers are engineers according to lore. And not in the same way that paladins are "warriors". Tinker and engineer are synonymous. Whereas death knights and paladins are wildly different on a lore level despite being warrior types.
    What makes death knights and paladins different?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-07-20 at 04:27 AM.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So wouldn't Gazlowe's ability to summon and pilot a mech be an example of a lore ability, since he does it in lore?




    An example of a warcraft necromancer with necromancer abilities.




    Which shows how effectively meaningless lore is when we're talking about interactions with classes.



    And Paladins are referred to as warriors in the lore multiple times. Again, just an umbrella term.




    Wouldn't a title denote a level of difference between a standard engineer and a Tinker?



    Of course it does. That's the point.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There was no trying involved. Saying that an unrelated engineering item is the same as an ability is the height of absurdity.



    Weren't you just arguing that engineering items that don't have the same name or function as a Tinker ability are the same thing as the Tinker ability?

    You should really make up your mind.



    What makes death knights and paladins different?
    Lmfao so typical. I've absolutely shown you engineering items that did the exact same thing as alleged tinker abilities you've put forth and you nitpicked the hell out of it to avoid admitting you were wrong.

    If the ability doesn't do the same thing in WoW as it does in HotS, then they're not the same ability. That's the comparison I'm making but as usual, you are being purposely obtuse.

    Death knights gain their power from vampiric runeblades and are soldiers resurrected into undeath. Paladins wield the Light and use their devotion to the Light to empower themselves. The fact that I actually had to explain this means you are DEFINITELY being purposely obtuse.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    "Emerald Dream = Life" doesn't really make sense as the Emerald Dream is an Azeroth thing, not a cosmic realm like the Shadowlands.
    Emerald Dream can be anything that Blizzard wants it to be.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Soimu View Post
    Emerald Dream can be anything that Blizzard wants it to be.
    Except Blizzard has established in the current canon that the Emerald Dream was created by Freya as a blueprint for Azeroth. So he's right in saying it's not a cosmic realm like the Shadowlands as the Dream is only found on Azeroth and nowhere else.

  18. #178
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Lmfao so typical. I've absolutely shown you engineering items that did the exact same thing as alleged tinker abilities you've put forth and you nitpicked the hell out of it to avoid admitting you were wrong.
    Where and when?

    If the ability doesn't do the same thing in WoW as it does in HotS, then they're not the same ability. That's the comparison I'm making but as usual, you are being purposely obtuse.
    So does this mean that the engineering items that don't have the same name or same function as Tinker abilities are also not the same thing as said abilities?

    Death knights gain their power from vampiric runeblades and are soldiers resurrected into undeath. Paladins wield the Light and use their devotion to the Light to empower themselves. The fact that I actually had to explain this means you are DEFINITELY being purposely obtuse.
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sir_Zeliek

    A Death Knight that wields the Light and uses his devotion to light to empower himself.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Where and when?



    So does this mean that the engineering items that don't have the same name or same function as Tinker abilities are also not the same thing as said abilities?



    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Sir_Zeliek

    A Death Knight that wields the Light and uses his devotion to light to empower himself.
    It was in another tinker thread and I don't remember how far back. But you definitely did everything you could to try and invalidate the examples I gave and none of your logic made ANY sense.

    First off, there are no tinker abilities so there is no tinker class. Second of all, if the engineering item doesn't have the same name OR function, it's obviously not the same ability. That's a no brainer.

    LMFAO SO YOU BRING UP THE ONE EXCEPTION. Zeliek is literally the ONLY lore character in Warcraft history that manages to do what he does. So using him as an example is nothing but extreme reaching on your part.
    Last edited by TheRevenantHero; 2021-07-20 at 05:16 AM.

  20. #180
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    As per normal, this topic has derailed itself into pointless back-and-forth arguing. Closing this.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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