Are the Titans to bring the Tinker class?

[Teriz]

No it's more that tinker is just another word for engineer. I hope you stretched before all that reaching though.

So is the argument that Blizzard wouldn’t create a Tinker class because in lore the Tinker is a type of engineer?

Wouldn’t Blizzard simply assume that the Tinker is a different type of engineer than the profession? I mean after all, the Tinker hero from WC3 and HotS have abilities not in the profession, and those abilities have already been translated into WoW.

[LordVargK]

Maiden of Vitality is one such thing. Made of stone, but talks and produces sparks like a machine.

You're right. Mechagnomes also spark.

Still they are sentient. That raises an interesting question: Is the creator of something sentient at fault, if it does something unintented by the creator? Is it really "broken" if it follows it's own will?

[TheRevenantHero]

So is the argument that Blizzard wouldn’t create a Tinker class because in lore the Tinker is a type of engineer?

Wouldn’t Blizzard simply assume that the Tinker is a different type of engineer than the profession? I mean after all, the Tinker hero from WC3 and HotS have abilities not in the profession, and those abilities have already been translated into WoW.

No. The lore states they simply ARE engineers. Tinker is just another word for them. It's like how draenei call paladins Vindicators. Also, HotS is incredibly irrelevant to the discussion so stop bringing it up every single time. Just because a few abilities were brought into WoW doesn't mean ALL of them will be. There are numerous abilities that never carried over into WoW from WC3 which means if they haven't been then they likely never will be.

[Teriz]

No. The lore states they simply ARE engineers. Tinker is just another word for them. It's like how draenei call paladins Vindicators.

Except the lore specifically states that Vindicators are a type of Paladin, and Paladins are champions of the light. No where does it state that the only type of engineers are the profession based engineers. This is also backed up by the fact that Tinkers exhibit abilities not found in the profession.

Also, HotS is incredibly irrelevant to the discussion so stop bringing it up every single time. Just because a few abilities were brought into WoW doesn't mean ALL of them will be. There are numerous abilities that never carried over into WoW from WC3 which means if they haven't been then they likely never will be.

Since HotS abilities are in WoW that does make it relevant to the discussion. We have engineer-based characters utilizing the abilities of hero characters. Traditionally (frankly every single case), those hero characters and their abilities form the basis of WoW classes, which explains why they're not in the profession.

[Triceron]

Maiden of Vitality is one such thing. Made of stone, but talks and produces sparks like a machine.

Being made of stone and talking like a machine doesn't mean you can't be sentient in the Warcraft universe.

Hell, Xalatath is a talking inanimate (well... slightly animated...) dagger and that's still considered sentience.

[username993720]

You're right. Mechagnomes also spark.

Still they are sentient. That raises an interesting question: Is the creator of something sentient at fault, if it does something unintented by the creator? Is it really "broken" if it follows it's own will?

Well, how do we know they are sentient?

Being made of stone and talking like a machine doesn't mean you can't be sentient in the Warcraft universe.

Hell, Xalatath is a talking inanimate (well... slightly animated...) dagger and that's still considered sentience.

So, how do you determine a machine from a non-one?

[Triceron]

Except the lore specifically states that Vindicators are a type of Paladin, and Paladins are champions of the light. No where does it state that the only type of engineers are the profession based engineers.

The lore doesn't make a distinction between 'that type of Engineer' and 'Profession based Engineers', they are one and the same in the lore. If you're talking about the lore, then at face value, an Engineer has only one meaning.

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So, how do you determine a machine from a non-one?

Machines can be sentient in WoW, so it there's no purpose in determining a difference as a means to dismiss sentience.

It's kind of like how you can regard Undead as either being a mindless construct or a sentient being. It's not just brainless because it's 'Undead', the classification doesn't differentiate between sentience.

Xt-002 deconstructor is a machine, but it's clearly also sentient, even if its intelligence is only that of a childs. Or you could look at the complete opposite at Mimiron, who is also a construct and a highly intelligent, sentient being. Even if one argues that he's purely mechanical and all his thoughts are 'AI type of programming', Warcraft as a fantasy universe adapts that all as being sentience as opposed to a real world definition with rules that separate the two. Technology in WoW is generally pseudo-science that is effectively magic. Real world explanations and definitions don't really apply when we're talking about whether a mechanical being can be sentient or not. I mean if we take the conversation one step deeper, everything in the game is a programmed NPC so none of them are actually sentient :P But as long as we're talking about the Warcraft universe, there's really no difference. Any machine *can* become sentient given that there's some means to do it. In current lore, "Titan tech" is one of those means.

[TheRevenantHero]

Except the lore specifically states that Vindicators are a type of Paladin, and Paladins are champions of the light. No where does it state that the only type of engineers are the profession based engineers. This is also backed up by the fact that Tinkers exhibit abilities not found in the profession.



Since HotS abilities are in WoW that does make it relevant to the discussion. We have engineer-based characters utilizing the abilities of hero characters. Traditionally (frankly every single case), those hero characters and their abilities form the basis of WoW classes, which explains why they're not in the profession.

It is actually said in the lore that tinkers are engineers. Period. You can do mental gymnastics to try and say that it's not the same but that would be nothing but your own headcanon. Also, tinkers aren't official class. so looking at NPC abilities and saying their abilities denote what the class has is 100% wrong and more reaching on your part.

And as always, I'm going to disregard any comment you make about HotS when trying to talk about something in WoW. Because it's all conjecture that you spew out as fact. Which is really annoying, honestly.

[LordVargK]

Well, how do we know they are sentient?

At least Ra Den had a part of a titans soul within him. Also him getting depressed would not have happened without him being sentient. Mechagnomes are sentient, we have no reason to assume otherwise.
So by extension we can assume that this extends to other titanforged constructs as well.

[TheRevenantHero]

Well, how do we know they are sentient?



So, how do you determine a machine from a non-one?

Do....do you not know what the word sentient means? Mecha-gnomes absolutely are sentient because they have consciousness. They're not 100% mindless robots.

[username993720]

Do....do you not know what the word sentient means? Mecha-gnomes absolutely are sentient because they have consciousness. They're not 100% mindless robots.

Depends on how far they're gone.

[Teriz]

It is actually said in the lore that tinkers are engineers. Period. You can do mental gymnastics to try and say that it's not the same but that would be nothing but your own headcanon.

Where in the lore does it state that the engineering profession represents every engineer shown in WoW? Where does the lore state that Mekkatorque and Gazlowe are profession engineers?

Also, tinkers aren't official class. so looking at NPC abilities and saying their abilities denote what the class has is 100% wrong and more reaching on your part.

Tinker is an official hero though, and the WoW classes are based on the Warcraft heroes, and the Tinker’s abilities aren’t in the class lineup.

And as always, I'm going to disregard any comment you make about HotS when trying to talk about something in WoW. Because it's all conjecture that you spew out as fact. Which is really annoying, honestly.

You’re disregarding the HotS abilities because they disprove what you’re arguing here. It is a fact that the Tinker’s HotS abilities are in WoW and it is also a fact that HotS abilities are in multiple WoW classes.

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The lore doesn't make a distinction between 'that type of Engineer' and 'Profession based Engineers', they are one and the same in the lore. If you're talking about the lore, then at face value, an Engineer has only one meaning.

This is an assumption based on an omission. If we look at the WC3 hero and prominent Goblins and Gnomes, there’s a rather clear difference between the profession and the “hero” character’s version of engineering.

[Triceron]

This is an assumption based on an omission. If we look at the WC3 hero and prominent Goblins and Gnomes, there’s a rather clear difference between the profession and the “hero” character’s version of engineering.

The WC3 hero doesn't exist in WoW either, so you're also using an assumption based on omission?

Whereas the Engineer in lore has no direct distinctions between 'profession' 'trainer' 'vendor' or 'class'. It's all the same in the lore, an Engineer is an Engineer. There are no differences between one type or another as far as the lore is concerned, so it is not an assumption, it is literally how lore treats the terminology.


Also, 'assumption based on an omission' is itself somewhat of a fallacy. Lore is taken at face value until we get new information that otherwise changes what we know. There is no assumption beyond what lore tells us. If it's omitted from the lore, then it's literally not lore. There's no assumption about it. Tinkers being heroes in WC3 is literally inserted into WoW lore as Engineers; like Gazlowe literally being an Engineer or Mekkatorque literally being an Engineer.

[Teriz]

The Tinker hero doesn't exist in WoW either, so you're also using an assumption based on omission.

Actually it does, since Gazlowe was showcased with the Tinker hero’s abilities in BFA.

[Triceron]

Actually it does, since Gazlowe was showcased with the Tinker hero’s abilities in BFA.

Which means Engineer NPCs are capable of Tinker abilities in BFA. Again, no lore conflict whatsoever. You're lending more evidence that the two are treated as one and the same in the lore. Tinkers are just Engineers, and Engineers can have Tinker abilities because Tinkers are Engineers.


The only instance where a Tinker is not an Engineer is if Blizzard ends up making a clear separation between the two in the lore.

So far? There are no separations in the lore.

[Teriz]

Which means Engineer NPCs are capable of Tinker abilities in BFA. Again, no lore conflict whatsoever. You're lending more evidence that the two are treated as one and the same in the lore.

Except players get access to those NPC abilities via classes. Where can players obtain access to the Tinker hero abilities since they can’t be handled by professions?

[Triceron]

Except players get access to those NPC abilities via classes. Where can players obtain access to the Tinker hero abilities since they can’t be handled by professions?

The same way classes get Dark Ranger abilities from Sylvanas, or the ability to use giant lightforged mechs.

These abilities aren't made exclusive to professions or classes, they're handed out however Blizzard sees fit

[Teriz]

The same way classes get Dark Ranger abilities from Sylvanas, or the ability to use giant lightforged mechs.

Hunters had Black Arrow for multiple expansions. Hunters currently have exclusive access to Wailing Arrow and Withering Force.

What Warcraft hero pilots a Lightforged mech?

These abilities aren't made exclusive to professions or classes, they're handed out however Blizzard sees fit

Unholy Aura, Death Pact, Death and Decay, Death Coil, Evasion, Immolation, Metamorphosis, Mana Burn, Storm Earth Fire, Drunken Brawler, Drunken Haze, Breath of Fire, etc. all went to WoW classes. None of them went to a profession.

If the Tinker and the Profession engineer are one in the same, why have we never seen any of the Tinker hero’s abilities show up in the profession?

[Triceron]

What Warcraft hero pilots a Lightforged mech?

Any one of them that chooses to quest on Argus.

If the Tinker and the Profession engineer are one in the same, why have we never seen any of the Tinker hero’s abilities show up in the profession?

They're one in the same in the lore. The lore isn't always reflected in gameplay mechanics, just as Sunwalkers don't have any actual Sun-related abilities in their kit despite the lore explaining their source of power.

We are talking about Engineers and Tinkers in lore, so I'm not quite sure you are asking about gameplay. Gameplay is literally whatever Blizzard wants it to be, like giving Metamorphosis to Warlocks.

[Teriz]

Any one of them that chooses to quest on Argus.

Which hero has the ability “Summon Lightforged Warframes”? I’m unaware of his or her existence.

They're one in the same in the lore. The lore isn't always reflected in gameplay mechanics, just as Sunwalkers don't have any actual Sun-related abilities in their kit despite the lore explaining their source of power.

Except Sunwalkers never had any specific Sunwalker abilities, thus despite lore they were always just Paladins, and Sunwalker was just a name for Tauren Paladins.

There’s actual Tinker abilities. That makes it more than just a name.

We are talking about Engineers and Tinkers in lore, so I'm not quite sure you are asking about gameplay. Gameplay is literally whatever Blizzard wants it to be, like giving Metamorphosis to Warlocks.

Gameplay reflects the lore, and isn’t backing up your argument here.