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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    The issues about the implemented systems and the flaws those issues were kept to cover became overly apparent during Legion's first patch.
    It was either a deliberate design choice, or a poor move in a premium service.
    I'm leaning towards the former, since, as I said, assuming your feedback will be obeyed is nothing but ego.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    What do you mean "not in the way they want"?

    Legendaries:
    Blizzard didn't change jackshit about the acquisition during Alpha / Beta, the way you acquired them remained unchanged.
    At best, they added a "bad luck protection", but considering they also implemented a softcap past the 4th legendary (and only admitted its existence after some people with hundreds of MoS runs called them out that), i think that cancelled itself out.

    Azerite:
    Blizzard straight up admitted that they dismissed most player feedback because the system was hardly implemented throughout Beta, hence they assumed the feedback is useless because "Players don't have the full picture".

    There is a difference between "not implementing suggestions in a 1:1 fashion" and "rejecting feedback".
    Blizzard rejected Feedback and only changed things once it hit live servers and the outcry forced their hands.
    The difference is reality. On PTR they have maybe thousands of people testing things. They get feedback saying such and such. They think this is a minor issue but not a big deal so they leave it as is. Then it goes live and millions of people are testing things. And suddenly what looked like a minor problem is now revealed to be much more.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  2. #22
    Elemental Lord Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Blizzard rejected Feedback and only changed things once it hit live servers and the outcry forced their hands.
    The case of Legiondaries first, and Azerite later were especially egregious, since the fixes they implemented had already been suggested like 2598362945 times by beta testers, including the likes of Preach or T&E.
    Current state of WoW lore:
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Who'd have known that the Domination guy whose aesthetics are 80% chains wasn't into freedom. Nobody could have seen this coming.

  3. #23
    Pandaren Monk Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I love the ego of the player base to assume that feedback not being implemented in the way they want someone means they didn't see or care about it.
    I don't know, it just seems that a lot of the time we see consistent negative feedback on how stories are developing (or even many in-game systems [such as Azerite armor]) and then proceed to implement as-is anyhow, typically stating that players don't have the perspective to understand (which is sometimes undermined by players predicting the outcomes of systems and key plot points). The problems introduced in the story have even gotten to the point that large content creators like Nobbel, who has always been fairly positive about WoW lore, has been voicing discontent in his discussions on Shadowlands. It's like, how many times can Blizzard seriously ask why there are so many wasps while they are hitting the nest until people feel comfortable asking why they keep hitting the nest in the first place?
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    The difference is reality. On PTR they have maybe thousands of people testing things. They get feedback saying such and such. They think this is a minor issue but not a big deal so they leave it as is. Then it goes live and millions of people are testing things. And suddenly what looked like a minor problem is now revealed to be much more.
    This isn't bugtesting, those are design issues.

    Blizzard designed the legendaries in a way that their acquisition was completely random, they designed a softcap that you were more or less stuck with a limited collection of legendaries.
    Mate, they set the terms, they can run sims how fast on average a player will acquire a legendary, they could sim how big the dps discrepancy was between certain legendaries.

    If they haven't done that, they didn't do their homework, if their numbers were inacurrate, they need to have a serious discussion with their data analysts.
    If they had remotely decent numbers and disregarded them, they are plain incompetent.

    This has nothing to do with getting numbers from thousands of players, Blizzard wanted it that Legiondaries are quite rare and not every player has a full assortment.
    You should get a random one and play around that accordingly.
    That was the design intent, that design was fulfilled, the problem was, that designed sucked.

    And in case of the Azerite system, i want to reiterate: they disregarded feedback, they said "Players don't have the full picture, the feedback is useless!".
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-22 at 03:54 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    This isn't bugtesting, those are design issues.

    Blizzard designed the legendaries in a way that their acquisition was completely random, they designed a softcap that you were more or less stuck with a limited collection of legendaries.
    Mate, they set the terms, they can run sims how fast on average a player will acquire a legendary, they could sim how big the dps discrepancy was between certain legendaries.

    If they haven't done that, they didn't do their homework, if their numbers were inacurrate, they need to have a serious discussion with their data analysts.
    If they had remotely decent numbers and disregarded them, they are plain incompetent.

    This has nothing to do with getting numbers from thousands of players, Blizzard wanted it that Legiondaries are quite rare and not every player has a full assortment.
    You should get a random one and play around that accordingly.
    That was the design intent, that design was fulfilled, the problem was, that designed sucked.

    And in case of the Azerite system, i want to reiterate: they disregarded feedback, they said "Players don't have the full picture, the feedback is useless!".
    I'm not talking about bug testing. Do you think the guys doing the ptr are the mom and pop casual people? No. The guys going on ptr are like the guys here on these forums. More serious players more invested in the game. The problems ptr testers see, cause, and report are completely different from what others see. Designing around the 1% is what you're complaining they didn't do and are subjectively dismissing it.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I'm not talking about bug testing.
    You don't need thousands of people to call out design issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    No. The guys going on ptr are like the guys here on these forums. More serious players more invested in the game. The problems ptr testers see, cause, and report are completely different from what others see.
    Those peope called out the problems with those systems.
    Blizzard dismissed them.
    Said Problems actually ocurred.

    This has nothing to do with how "other people see" something, this has something to do with knowing your playerbase and knowing how they react to certain systems.
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Designing around the 1% is what you're complaining they didn't do and are subjectively dismissing it.
    In other words, casuals were actually pretty happy with the initial version of legiondaries and Azerite?

    So...why were those systems panned by the larger audience when they hit live servers, just like those Beta testers predicted?
    Last edited by Kralljin; Yesterday at 06:45 AM.

  7. #27
    How about WoW memes instead?

    A turtle made it to the water.

    An illusion! What are you hiding?

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You don't need thousands of people to call out design issues.

    Those peope called out the problems with those systems.
    Blizzard dismissed them.
    Said Problems actually ocurred.

    This has nothing to do with how "other people see" something, this has something to do with knowing your playerbase and knowing how they react to certain systems.

    In other words, casuals were actually pretty happy with the initial version of legiondaries and Azerite?

    So...why were those systems panned by the larger audience when they hit live servers, just like those Beta testers predicted?
    In order. Designing around the 1% who actually do the PTR and who are hardcores is a bad thing. Something being a problem for a mythic raider won't even be noticed by an average player. Mythic raider complains about some tuning or design issue, the casual will go "I didn't notice."

    As for your "panned by the larger audience", do you mean the people on these forums who, again, are neither casuals nor in any way a larger audience. 100% of these forums is not 0.01% of the playerbase.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  9. #29
    Imagine someone actually defending legiondaries, azerite, and Choreghast. Bonus points, blaming the players. "Maybe Ion-sempai will n-notice me!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Imagine someone actually defending legiondaries, azerite, and Choreghast. Bonus points, blaming the players. "Maybe Ion-sempai will n-notice me!"
    I defend Torghast. I have no problem with it. But I don't blame the players, Torghast has still much room for improvement.

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