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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    The issues about the implemented systems and the flaws those issues were kept to cover became overly apparent during Legion's first patch.
    It was either a deliberate design choice, or a poor move in a premium service.
    I'm leaning towards the former, since, as I said, assuming your feedback will be obeyed is nothing but ego.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    What do you mean "not in the way they want"?

    Legendaries:
    Blizzard didn't change jackshit about the acquisition during Alpha / Beta, the way you acquired them remained unchanged.
    At best, they added a "bad luck protection", but considering they also implemented a softcap past the 4th legendary (and only admitted its existence after some people with hundreds of MoS runs called them out that), i think that cancelled itself out.

    Azerite:
    Blizzard straight up admitted that they dismissed most player feedback because the system was hardly implemented throughout Beta, hence they assumed the feedback is useless because "Players don't have the full picture".

    There is a difference between "not implementing suggestions in a 1:1 fashion" and "rejecting feedback".
    Blizzard rejected Feedback and only changed things once it hit live servers and the outcry forced their hands.
    The difference is reality. On PTR they have maybe thousands of people testing things. They get feedback saying such and such. They think this is a minor issue but not a big deal so they leave it as is. Then it goes live and millions of people are testing things. And suddenly what looked like a minor problem is now revealed to be much more.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  2. #22
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Blizzard rejected Feedback and only changed things once it hit live servers and the outcry forced their hands.
    The case of Legiondaries first, and Azerite later were especially egregious, since the fixes they implemented had already been suggested like 2598362945 times by beta testers, including the likes of Preach or T&E.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomoprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  3. #23
    Warchief Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I love the ego of the player base to assume that feedback not being implemented in the way they want someone means they didn't see or care about it.
    I don't know, it just seems that a lot of the time we see consistent negative feedback on how stories are developing (or even many in-game systems [such as Azerite armor]) and then proceed to implement as-is anyhow, typically stating that players don't have the perspective to understand (which is sometimes undermined by players predicting the outcomes of systems and key plot points). The problems introduced in the story have even gotten to the point that large content creators like Nobbel, who has always been fairly positive about WoW lore, has been voicing discontent in his discussions on Shadowlands. It's like, how many times can Blizzard seriously ask why there are so many wasps while they are hitting the nest until people feel comfortable asking why they keep hitting the nest in the first place?
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    The difference is reality. On PTR they have maybe thousands of people testing things. They get feedback saying such and such. They think this is a minor issue but not a big deal so they leave it as is. Then it goes live and millions of people are testing things. And suddenly what looked like a minor problem is now revealed to be much more.
    This isn't bugtesting, those are design issues.

    Blizzard designed the legendaries in a way that their acquisition was completely random, they designed a softcap that you were more or less stuck with a limited collection of legendaries.
    Mate, they set the terms, they can run sims how fast on average a player will acquire a legendary, they could sim how big the dps discrepancy was between certain legendaries.

    If they haven't done that, they didn't do their homework, if their numbers were inacurrate, they need to have a serious discussion with their data analysts.
    If they had remotely decent numbers and disregarded them, they are plain incompetent.

    This has nothing to do with getting numbers from thousands of players, Blizzard wanted it that Legiondaries are quite rare and not every player has a full assortment.
    You should get a random one and play around that accordingly.
    That was the design intent, that design was fulfilled, the problem was, that designed sucked.

    And in case of the Azerite system, i want to reiterate: they disregarded feedback, they said "Players don't have the full picture, the feedback is useless!".
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-22 at 03:54 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    This isn't bugtesting, those are design issues.

    Blizzard designed the legendaries in a way that their acquisition was completely random, they designed a softcap that you were more or less stuck with a limited collection of legendaries.
    Mate, they set the terms, they can run sims how fast on average a player will acquire a legendary, they could sim how big the dps discrepancy was between certain legendaries.

    If they haven't done that, they didn't do their homework, if their numbers were inacurrate, they need to have a serious discussion with their data analysts.
    If they had remotely decent numbers and disregarded them, they are plain incompetent.

    This has nothing to do with getting numbers from thousands of players, Blizzard wanted it that Legiondaries are quite rare and not every player has a full assortment.
    You should get a random one and play around that accordingly.
    That was the design intent, that design was fulfilled, the problem was, that designed sucked.

    And in case of the Azerite system, i want to reiterate: they disregarded feedback, they said "Players don't have the full picture, the feedback is useless!".
    I'm not talking about bug testing. Do you think the guys doing the ptr are the mom and pop casual people? No. The guys going on ptr are like the guys here on these forums. More serious players more invested in the game. The problems ptr testers see, cause, and report are completely different from what others see. Designing around the 1% is what you're complaining they didn't do and are subjectively dismissing it.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I'm not talking about bug testing.
    You don't need thousands of people to call out design issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    No. The guys going on ptr are like the guys here on these forums. More serious players more invested in the game. The problems ptr testers see, cause, and report are completely different from what others see.
    Those peope called out the problems with those systems.
    Blizzard dismissed them.
    Said Problems actually ocurred.

    This has nothing to do with how "other people see" something, this has something to do with knowing your playerbase and knowing how they react to certain systems.
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Designing around the 1% is what you're complaining they didn't do and are subjectively dismissing it.
    In other words, casuals were actually pretty happy with the initial version of legiondaries and Azerite?

    So...why were those systems panned by the larger audience when they hit live servers, just like those Beta testers predicted?
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-23 at 06:45 AM.

  7. #27
    How about WoW memes instead?

    A turtle made it to the water.

    An illusion! What are you hiding?


  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    You don't need thousands of people to call out design issues.

    Those peope called out the problems with those systems.
    Blizzard dismissed them.
    Said Problems actually ocurred.

    This has nothing to do with how "other people see" something, this has something to do with knowing your playerbase and knowing how they react to certain systems.

    In other words, casuals were actually pretty happy with the initial version of legiondaries and Azerite?

    So...why were those systems panned by the larger audience when they hit live servers, just like those Beta testers predicted?
    In order. Designing around the 1% who actually do the PTR and who are hardcores is a bad thing. Something being a problem for a mythic raider won't even be noticed by an average player. Mythic raider complains about some tuning or design issue, the casual will go "I didn't notice."

    As for your "panned by the larger audience", do you mean the people on these forums who, again, are neither casuals nor in any way a larger audience. 100% of these forums is not 0.01% of the playerbase.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  9. #29
    Imagine someone actually defending legiondaries, azerite, and Choreghast. Bonus points, blaming the players. "Maybe Ion-sempai will n-notice me!"

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Imagine someone actually defending legiondaries, azerite, and Choreghast. Bonus points, blaming the players. "Maybe Ion-sempai will n-notice me!"
    I defend Torghast. I have no problem with it. But I don't blame the players, Torghast has still much room for improvement.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    In order. Designing around the 1% who actually do the PTR and who are hardcores is a bad thing.
    ...okay?

    Were those systems designed around the 1%?
    No.

    If you want to tell me that "Legiondaries should have had a more deterministic acquisition" is "designing the system around the 1%" then you are just out of your mind.

    Blizzard acted on the feedback that already given during Beta only after the system was exposed to a larger audience - except only far too late, meaning those very fixes were never about "designing it around the 1%".
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    As for your "panned by the larger audience", do you mean the people on these forums who, again, are neither casuals nor in any way a larger audience. 100% of these forums is not 0.01% of the playerbase.
    So you want to say that the larger audience actually liked the Legiondaries and Azerite system?
    Despite Blizzard the fact that Blizzard heavily altered the acqusition of those Legendaries down the line and the Azerite system was essentially retired by the time of 8.2?

    Is your best argument really "You don't know what the larger audience wants!", despite that people already predicted those serious issues with the system on the PTR and in the case of Legiondaries, Blizzard didn't implement this feedback until ~7.3?

    Mate, you are choosing to do die on a hill that Blizzard doesn't even defend, because Blizzard admitted that these two systems frankly didn't work out at all.
    Despite players pretty much predicting during Beta why those systems won't work, Blizzard went ahead and implemented them.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-24 at 08:52 AM.

  12. #32
    DRAENOR IS F(REEEEEE) is my favorite.
    - Everything that lives is designed to end. We are perpetually trapped in a never ending spiral of life and death. Is this a curse? Or some kind of punishment? I often think about the god who blessed us with this cryptic puzzle… and wonder if we’ll ever get the chance to kill him.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    ...okay?

    Were those systems designed around the 1%?
    No.

    If you want to tell me that "Legiondaries should have had a more deterministic acquisition" is "designing the system around the 1%" then you are just out of your mind.

    Blizzard acted on the feedback that already given during Beta only after the system was exposed to a larger audience - except only far too late, meaning those very fixes were never about "designing it around the 1%".

    So you want to say that the larger audience actually liked the Legiondaries and Azerite system?
    Despite Blizzard the fact that Blizzard heavily altered the acqusition of those Legendaries down the line and the Azerite system was essentially retired by the time of 8.2?

    Is your best argument really "You don't know what the larger audience wants!", despite that people already predicted those serious issues with the system on the PTR and in the case of Legiondaries, Blizzard didn't implement this feedback until ~7.3?

    Mate, you are choosing to do die on a hill that Blizzard doesn't even defend, because Blizzard admitted that these two systems frankly didn't work out at all.
    Despite players pretty much predicting during Beta why those systems won't work, Blizzard went ahead and implemented them.
    No, but any problems the 1% found with them would be non-issues to those outside the 1%. Ergo demanding that things be fixed so the 1% didn't have a problem would be... designing around the 1%.

    You have no evidence that the legiondaries system and azerite systems weren't liked. As it has been proven, the people on these forums making the noise, are the 1%.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans Dartz1979's Avatar
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    i dont care what anyone says sylvanas and jaina are my waifus they keep me inspired
    You can't take what ya can't see... *rolls d20* You rolled a natural 20* The skill of stealth is successful.

    Duelingnexus name: Jaina1337
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  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    No, but any problems the 1% found with them would be non-issues to those outside the 1%. Ergo demanding that things be fixed so the 1% didn't have a problem would be... designing around the 1%.

    You have no evidence that the legiondaries system and azerite systems weren't liked. As it has been proven, the people on these forums making the noise, are the 1%.
    And you have no evidence that they were liked.

  16. #36
    i came lookin for memes and scrolled past a lot of text.

  17. #37
    The Cosby Suite. Now there's a pretty meme. Exquisite!

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Thestrawman View Post
    And you have no evidence that they were liked.
    So why argue a point that can't be proven either way?
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    The Cosby Suite. Now there's a pretty meme. Exquisite!
    I wonder if that and the (still alive) pet family saint count as WoW memes? They directly relate to the WoW team I guess. It's certainly less clean cut that underpriviliged phone ownership memes which relate to diablo first and foremost.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    DRAENOR IS F(REEEEEE) is my favorite.
    Good choice for sure. We really need something that encompasses all of SL in one short sentence as well, everything that comes to mind requires either visual aid or lengthy explanations as to the absurdity of it all.
    MMO-C should be glad that the British Empire is no more, because they'd want a piece of all the copium trade here.
    Angry players come to the forums to complain about the game... but what loser only comes to the forums to complain about the forums and its users?
    Felating Blizzard too eagerly may lead to oxygen deficiency and worst case asphyxiation. Long-term effects range from delusions up to cerebral necrosis.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You have no evidence that the legiondaries system and azerite systems weren't liked.
    Blizzard heavily reworked the acquisition of the Legiondaires, which was the most criticized point, they also had to significantly buff the Legiondaries which didn't provide any direct throughput because most people treated them as a "dead slot".

    Which by the way, is feedback that was already provided during Beta.
    Then there's the softcap which Blizzard implemented, where people had_to_call Blizzard out to even admit its existence and subsequent removal.

    As for the Azerite System, Blizzard openly admitted that the system didn't work and effectively discontinued the system past 8.1 and rather focused on the essence system from then on.
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    As it has been proven, the people on these forums making the noise, are the 1%.
    This doesn't prove that the feedback is incorrect, either.

    If you're going by that argument, then we might as well stop PTR / Beta testing entirely, because any sort of feedback there is given by "the 1%".
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-25 at 12:27 PM.

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