If 10.0 is a massive revamp was it worth dealing with Shadowlands?

[Queen of Hamsters]

Rival MMO? I'm assuming you mean Final Fantasy based on the recent band wagon. Too bad it's a grindy bore or a game. (and that's coming from someone that hasn't been subbed to wow in over 8 months)

Not to mention that they're basing it on 3rd party "data", big streamers pulling viewership (which they'd do anywhere) and hyperboly. They shut up fast once the Mythic race streams began though, lol.

[NineSpine]

Even Cataclysm was mostly phased. Zones that had a drastic change had NPC's that could transport you to the vanilla content. Blizzard can just stack phases on top of phases.

However, they want to create something catastrophic, it should be done in a temporary phase, a phase that the player can work to remedy and close the phase again.

The entire end-game could take place in the format of invasions that way. Sounds exhausting, but keep in mind that phases can have different periods. There can be phases that last a few hours, some last an entire week, and some only close after a collective effort is made to complete them.

This is also the perfect way to time-gate content. Players can always play the content but they're not guaranteed to have all the content available all the time.

Nothing more I like in an MMO than being in the same zone and on the same server and not able to see each other because of phasing

[pahbi]

I hope 10.0 is a 100% revamp.

I never want to see anything even remotely similar to shadowlands ever again.

In fact, lets just go ahead and pour gas on shadowlands, light on fire, and just go straight to 10.0

[Ivarr]

Nothing more I like in an MMO than being in the same zone and on the same server and not able to see each other because of phasing

That's currently mostly caused by sharding rather than phasing.

I don't like personal phases either. They should be shared by large groups of players. The advantage isn't that you can split players, but rather that you can do crazy stories without permanent consequences like Cataclysm inflicted on the game.

[Nite92]

No because shadowlands burned so many bridges at the same time as a certain rival MMO has hit its stride that I don't think any revamp can possibly save WoW.

I don't think WoW needs saving. Especially after playing FF14. I just cannot get my head around how people enjoy this game over WoW.

I mean there are lots of complaints regarding alts, which I can understand - but I really don't see why a 2nd character should be so much less "effort" than your main character.
Besides that, I like this patch WAY more than 8.0 and 7.0. And those two patches generated record sales for SL.

Then there is the "Blizzard managed to lose subs over Covid". Which is IMO quite easily explained - Classic.

[NineSpine]

Not to mention that they're basing it on 3rd party "data", big streamers pulling viewership (which they'd do anywhere) and hyperboly. They shut up fast once the Mythic race streams began though, lol.

It's based on FF14 getting a massive, unreal influx of new players that was so huge it broke their online store.

While this season WoW's Mythic+ ladder is showing lower engagement than BFA season 4.

The titanic is on fire aand sinking and you are crowing about how it never sank before.

[Nite92]

Jailer is out there doing "Reality's end" stuff. If he's a plot point to usher in a massive 10.0 world revamp and redone systems and classes, etc. do you think that would change your perspective on Shadowlands?

Basically knowing they were doing a ton of work for the massive rework and Shadowlands would just be a WoD to a mega-Legion.

I don't see why. WoW does not need every spec to change.

What I really find funny, is that people COMPLAINED SO MUCH about the AP grinds - due to them being tied to power. Now it is detached, and people still complain. People will ALWAYS complain about daily/weekly required tasks.

[shadowmatrix]

No because shadowlands burned so many bridges at the same time as a certain rival MMO has hit its stride that I don't think any revamp can possibly save WoW.

Hit it's stride, more like people praising it in hopes of spiting blizzard. The people I listen to when it comes to how good Shadowbringer is are people who actually played because they like FF XIV. People who ran to the game because of anger will quickly leave the game once something new comes along such as something made by a ex-Blizzard employee.

[NineSpine]

I don't think WoW needs saving. Especially after playing FF14. I just cannot get my head around how people enjoy this game over WoW.

I mean there are lots of complaints regarding alts, which I can understand - but I really don't see why a 2nd character should be so much less "effort" than your main character.
Besides that, I like this patch WAY more than 8.0 and 7.0. And those two patches generated record sales for SL.

Then there is the "Blizzard managed to lose subs over Covid". Which is IMO quite easily explained - Classic.

Here are some reasons:

1. It has an unbelievably good story.
2. It is based on a model where the vast majority of content and systems are optional and exist for people who like them and want to do them.
3. It doesn't constantly deprecate old content. It makes as much content as possible evergreen.
4. It has very, very simple player power systems, which results in fantastic balance.
5. It constantly adds new jobs (classes) and makes them very easy to experience without having to jump through alt hoops.
6. It very rarely timegates content.
7. Aside from a handful of cosmetics, there are no giant grinds and certainly no giant grinds that reset every patch.
8. Raid content is all bosses, no trash.
9. Raids are tuned more around mechanics than around hard DPS checks.
10. Very little ilvl inflation.
11. This is only a partial list.

This isn't to say WoW has nothing that is better than FF14, especially from a subjective point of view, but if you can't understand why those points are appealing to people then the problem is you.

[Kohtra]

Pretending the competition could never overtake you is the road to ruin. Maybe a lot of you don't like FFxiv but the reality is we are now seeing a first in MMO history. It's undeniable FFxiv has done something that no other MMO has ever done. It's making Blizzard bleed. There's blood in the water and everyone knows it.

[NineSpine]

Hit it's stride, more like people praising it in hopes of spiting blizzard. The people I listen to when it comes to how good Shadowbringer is are people who actually played because they like FF XIV. People who ran to the game because of anger will quickly leave the game once something new comes along such as something made by a ex-Blizzard employee.

An MMO made by those folks is a minimum of 5-6 years away at best.

[Queen of Hamsters]

Pretending the competition could never overtake you is the road to ruin. Maybe a lot of you don't like FFxiv but the reality is we are now seeing a first in MMO history. It's undeniable FFxiv has done something that no other MMO has ever done. It's making Blizzard bleed. There's blood in the water and everyone knows it.

Show us the data proving it. Should be easy to produce. Mind you, 3rd party data is the same as no data. Give us official numbers from FFXIV and WoW.

[Kohtra]

Show us the data proving it.

Show me data WoW is still on top.

You know there is no data. But would it really surprise you?

[NineSpine]

Show us the data proving it.

We both know that no data will satisfy you. There will be excuse after excuse for the massive influx of players into FF14, a game which also steadily grows *between expansions*, a feat that WoW hasn't done in over a decade. You will also have excuses for everything WoW related getting ratioed. You will have excuses for the forums being full of seething hatred for the game. You will have excuses for the biggest wow streamer getting *bigger* when he switched to FF14.

You'll have excuses for all of it, so why waste time asking for it?

[Queen of Hamsters]

Show me data WoW is still on top.

You know there is no data. But would it really surprise you?

So how then does "everyone know it"...?

I know there's no data and that 3rd party data is useless, do you? Or anyone else making the same claims you made?

The data we have on WoW is the latest quarterly, it recited growth, not loss. That's all there is in terms of something official. The next quarterly is when there'll be something new. Simple as that. As for WoW being "on top", what's to say it's on top to begin with? We. Don't. Know, because neither company gives such figures.

It's not rocket science. If ya'll out here confidently claiming that FFXIV is making WoW bleed, then it's not surprising that I and others might get curious and ask for proof. Provide said proof, or stop making bogus claims, would be my course of action.

[Kohtra]

So how then does "everyone know it"...?

I know there's no data and that 3rd party data is useless, do you? Or anyone else making the same claims you made?

It's... pretty obvious Blizzard is hurting right now. You aren't doing yourself any favors pretending it's fine.

[shadowmatrix]

Here are some reasons:

1. It has an unbelievably good story.
2. It is based on a model where the vast majority of content and systems are optional and exist for people who like them and want to do them.
3. It doesn't constantly deprecate old content. It makes as much content as possible evergreen.
4. It has very, very simple player power systems, which results in fantastic balance.
5. It constantly adds new jobs (classes) and makes them very easy to experience without having to jump through alt hoops.
6. It very rarely timegates content.
7. Aside from a handful of cosmetics, there are no giant grinds and certainly no giant grinds that reset every patch.
8. Raid content is all bosses, no trash.
9. Raids are tuned more around mechanics than around hard DPS checks.
10. Very little ilvl inflation.
11. This is only a partial list.

This isn't to say WoW has nothing that is better than FF14, especially from a subjective point of view, but if you can't understand why those points are appealing to people then the problem is you.

1. That is based on personal preference.
2. Yet a new player is forced to play old content whether they like it or not. Even if your level 6 million you still have to complete the MSQ to move forward.
5. New jobs locked in new expansions.
6. Don't know enough about max level play to comment on.
7. The giant grinds are for leveling alt jobs, the story quests are one and done as far as getting xp goes. They have story replay but from what I heard it gives 0 xp.
8. WOW tried that and players didn't like it.
9. FF XIV still has DPS checks, Ifrit's nails being the first one I remember running into. Kill the nails quickly or wipe.

[NineSpine]

So how then does "everyone know it"...?

I know there's no data and that 3rd party data is useless, do you? Or anyone else making the same claims you made?

The data we have on WoW is the latest quarterly, it recited growth, not loss. That's all there is in terms of something official. The next quarterly is when there'll be something new. Simple as that. As for WoW being "on top", what's to say it's on top to begin with? We. Don't. Know, because neither company gives such figures.

It's not rocket science. If ya'll out here confidently claiming that FFXIV is making WoW bleed, then it's not surprising that I and others might get curious and ask for proof. Provide said proof, or stop making bogus claims, would be my course of action.

Quote the quarterly report.

[Queen of Hamsters]

It's... pretty obvious Blizzard is hurting right now. You aren't doing yourself any favors pretending it's fine.

"Pretty obvious" by what metrics? What data are you basing it on?

People such as yourself said the same thing throughout BfA, yet it was not once reflected in official metrics and earnings. "Trust me bro, it's pretty obvious!" based on negativity on social media surrounding this game holds no water when one's been through it for 13 years straight.

I'm not pretending anything's "fine", I'm one of the staunchest critics of SL, but that doesn't mean I'll abandon facts for feels and listen to streamers and 3rd party sites for my information.

[Caerrona]

Show me data WoW is still on top.

You know there is no data. But would it really surprise you?

That's not how this works? You can't make a baseless claim, be asked for *official* proof (not player feelings proof kek) and then come back and ask the person to prove a negative.

I can't wait for 6 months from now, when all the asmongold fan boys and the 7 other people that left for FF reach endgame and realise that there is less content at max lvl and the endgame is piss easy. It's going to be a wild ride