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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Do I REALLY need to explain gameplay and story segregation to you?
    Doesn't matter. We play a game that replaces bosses with literal loot crates when it suits them and this is a thread about undermining apparent death

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Doesn't matter. We play a game that replaces bosses with literal loot crates when it suits them and this is a thread about undermining apparent death
    Gameplay and story segregation takes place when the established lore of a franchise is not properly represented ingame by mechanics. In this case, when we beat Kael in Tempest Keep his body says "Dead" because that's what bodies do when their health reaches 0. Later on by MoP they'd added the coding for beaten bodies to show as Unconscious as they did with Garrosh. It was immediately revealed to players after they returned a drop from Kael to A'dal in Shattrath that he had not been killed. The existence of the hearthstone is another common one. As Varian Wrynn, King of Stormwind, believed them to be a myth until Anduin showed him one Jaina gave him. You know, that thing that appears in our bags by magic when we come into being and that every innkeeper will give us an infinite amount of for free?
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Gameplay and story segregation takes place when the established lore of a franchise is not properly represented ingame by mechanics. In this case, when we beat Kael in Tempest Keep his body says "Dead" because that's what bodies do when their health reaches 0. Later on by MoP they'd added the coding for beaten bodies to show as Unconscious as they did with Garrosh. It was immediately revealed to players after they returned a drop from Kael to A'dal in Shattrath that he had not been killed. The existence of the hearthstone is another common one. As Varian Wrynn, King of Stormwind, believed them to be a myth until Anduin showed him one Jaina gave him. You know, that thing that appears in our bags by magic when we come into being and that every innkeeper will give us an infinite amount of for free?
    And this is all well and good except the fact remains that a nearby container spawning or existing and being the loot container was a thing in TBC and earlier. Gauntlet style fights ring a bell? I know in later expansions they started having shit like the boss leaving with an bit of RP and something else popping up as the loot crate or a giant chest spawning huge and obvious... but it wasn't totally NOT present that clearing an encounter spawned a loot source NOT based on the apparent boss remains. Like the seven dwarves encounter in vanilla BRD.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    And this is all well and good except the fact remains that a nearby container spawning or existing and being the loot container was a thing in TBC and earlier. Gauntlet style fights ring a bell? I know in later expansions they started having shit like the boss leaving with an bit of RP and something else popping up as the loot crate or a giant chest spawning huge and obvious... but it wasn't totally NOT present that clearing an encounter spawned a loot source NOT based on the apparent boss remains. Like the seven dwarves encounter in vanilla BRD.
    Not sure what you're expecting. You beat a boss, took his loot to town, and immediately got laughed at by the boss for thinking you've beaten him.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Not sure what you're expecting. You beat a boss, took his loot to town, and immediately got laughed at by the boss for thinking you've beaten him.
    I'm just saying they HAD boss encounters where the "dead" tagged boss wasn't the "loot box" we accessed prior to the first Kael fight. Kael going out in an explosion of power and the orb or a 'box' with an orb wouldn't have been some crazy new concept.

    and your comment here is exactly my point about how the encounter cheapened his "death" or if you want to stay on this... his "defeat". WE had this shit for Kael in TBC, basically the full roster of major bosses in Wrath. Cata digging up our favorite dragons... and Legion... well... cause demons don't stay dead and Illidan had to further make the TBC lore complicated.

  6. #66
    Nowadays? Death has been meaningless since TBC when they brought Kael back.

  7. #67
    What's that chain even worth now? You'll just be popping around Maldraxxus or Bastion and there's old Bridenbrad like "oh, hey Steve!"
    Exactly. Knowledge of the afterlife should bring massive societal change to Azeroth. We've been there, collected the bear asses, and returned. But will the developers acknowledge it?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The Light covenant in the Shadowlands. That would have been even more ridiculous.

    I think it would have been better if the Shadowlands remained an actual "nightmarish realm of decay" as described in Chronicles that functions as a sort of purgatory and isn't meant to be navigated by living beings + Uther simply shouldn't be in the Shadowlands.

    Ardenweald being the place where druids and other nature aligned beings go after death is also a direct retcon as it was previously stated that they enter the Emerald Dream when they die (we learn this from a dead druid in the Furbolg cave on Teldrassil all the way back in classic).

    I just very much dislike the entire premise of the Shadowlands being the definitive afterlife for every species as it was never presented this way in the older lore (and there are several occasions where people commune with the dead) and it fucks with a lot of established things while also further demystifying the Warcraft universe. It never should have been an expansion setting to begin with.
    It's frustrating for sure, especially since we so far has only seen 4 of the potential afterlives which doesn't really fit for half the races. For example where is the endless planes the Tauren dream of?
    It think the Shadowlands had been easier to accept had we seen the variety but the 4 zones we got are presented like the only afterlives there are and it feels wrong shoehorning in every race into these realms.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    The Light covenant in the Shadowlands. That would have been even more ridiculous.
    Also weird how the Shadow pantheon is trying to invade the Shadowlands. I'm not making the rules Blizzard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pakheth View Post
    It's frustrating for sure, especially since we so far has only seen 4 of the potential afterlives which doesn't really fit for half the races. For example where is the endless planes the Tauren dream of?
    It think the Shadowlands had been easier to accept had we seen the variety but the 4 zones we got are presented like the only afterlives there are and it feels wrong shoehorning in every race into these realms.
    That's easily the weakest part about this expansion. It's rather ethnocentric and urban. We basically got a ton of new lore nobody ever asked for while the afterlife references in the actual lore are being ignored.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Also weird how the Shadow pantheon is trying to invade the Shadowlands. I'm not making the rules Blizzard.



    That's easily the weakest part about this expansion. It's rather ethnocentric and urban. We basically got a ton of new lore nobody ever asked for while the afterlife references in the actual lore are being ignored.
    Exactly. If the first patch had been about the other afterlives, or we had seen the others through dungeons I wouldn't have been so frustrated but we didn't and I don't expect us to see any of the others in the rest of the patches either since most of the focus seems to be on the 4 plus the Maw. And I am bloody tired of those 5 places already.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    I'm just saying they HAD boss encounters where the "dead" tagged boss wasn't the "loot box" we accessed prior to the first Kael fight. Kael going out in an explosion of power and the orb or a 'box' with an orb wouldn't have been some crazy new concept.

    and your comment here is exactly my point about how the encounter cheapened his "death" or if you want to stay on this... his "defeat". WE had this shit for Kael in TBC, basically the full roster of major bosses in Wrath. Cata digging up our favorite dragons... and Legion... well... cause demons don't stay dead and Illidan had to further make the TBC lore complicated.
    True enough with the "boss's body isn't the thing we loot" thing.

    As for the rest I really don't get, especially the "making the lore complicated" bit.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

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