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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by OrcsRLame View Post
    Ah, I see I confused you.
    Was your response to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    That's where I think you got confused.
    o_O

    That's pretty weird...

    When I said hundreds of people, I was not talking about fans. Hundreds of streamers. Literally hundreds of streamers have talked about how lucrative sponsored content is. You thought that I changed the subject because you assumed that hundreds of people must refer to fans instead of streamers. Looks like I did get what I want.

    I think the thing that amazes me most is that you hate streamers so much but you don't trust them to sellout to big companies. You're skeptical that the selling out is real lol. That just amazes me.
    I don't hate streamers nor did I mention anything about selling out. Don't strawman this discussion because I'm not doing that to you. I said I do not trust them (many of them, not all). I don't understand why you streamer fans cannot fathom that there are people out there who do not watch, like or even know who your webcam person is.

    Me personally, I just don't see what the big deal is with average Joe people who panhandle in front of a webcam and random people on the internet put them on a pedestal. It's even more awkward that they actually fork out their own money. I mean, if people are so naive, I'll go buy a webcam, play a game that I'm not any good at, insult the creators, make weird faces/noises if anyone here wants to toss me some cash.
    Last edited by Necromantic; 2021-07-20 at 01:04 PM.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    How would you do Blitzball? As a game in which you have teams of players competing against each other, like maybe an 8v8? I'd be nervous as to how that'd work due to the input delay. Or a 1v1 RTS (or perhaps even turn based?) where each player control a whole team of NPC Blitzball players?
    Underwater Knockout City and then build in all associated social features necessary. Try to do their absolute best to make it as smooth and buttery as possible (I know I know, a stretch). They don't need to reinvent the wheel, just find the most similar successful game that kind of mimics it's gameplay and be done with it.

    I still wish they just fucking copied Mario Kart or Crash Team Racing when they made Chocobo Racing, but unfortunately we got a crappy iteration.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Show me one person who has actually done both who says that anything in FFXIV is more challenging / competitve WoW's mythic raiding and keep ignoring that FFXIV has no real PvP to speak of.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    What weird bias? I've played both games, one is clearly better for the social aspect, and one is clearly better for high end PvE and PvP. You suggesting that anything in FFXIV is equivalent to WoW's mythic raiding in terms of challenge is laughable.
    Hi, ex top 20 US mythic Ret Paladin raider, ~99% parse in heroic, ~93-95% mythic. Have held dozens of top 10 world parses over the years. I play tank/PLD in FF14 (~85% most tiers, but thats because <----too broke to pentameld) so it's not a 1:1 comparison.

    I actually think both sides might be right though because I'm not confident that both people are actually talking about the same thing. In that vein I will discuss this as a cutting edge raider in both games assuming you are progressing before there are guides written:

    FF14 has stupidly obscure mechanics that make no sense at first. Figuring these out and their solutions is where most of the challenge actually comes from. Once an encounter is figured out, executing it is actually not that challenging. Having only 7 other mouthbreathers to worry about also makes things much easier with the help of infinite resses to speed up the learning process.

    However, on the other hand, personal responsibility is CONSIDERABLY higher in FF14 than WoW Mythic raiding. In Mythic raiding an encounter generally has like 3-4 all stars (pretty much responsible for the entire raids success mechanically speaking).

    DPS Optimization in FF14 feels much harder than WoW, but that's mostly a byproduct of it's combat engine within the encounter mechanics. I have historically had very little issue optimizing my DPS in WoW inside an encounter (a lot more done outside to find a play pattern I like that works for me, does the output it needs to be competitive, and makes sense for the encounter).

    In WoW solving for mechanics has historically not been challenging to us at all. Coming up with a solution for those mechanics sometimes takes a little work (who to assign and why, timing of critical cooldowns, gear shortage issues, where people should position to maximize their effectiveness). The difference becomes managing the stress of a deteoriating situation and making the appropriate calls to ensure there's a chance to clear. This type of decision fatigue rarely occurs in FF14 since most mechanics at the savage/ultimate level dictate a restart if failed.

    The advantage of 20 players is that your weak link might not get the critical mechanic that wipes the entire party which is nice. In FF14 your top 100 Mythic Mage friend playing BLM is required to do the mechanics almost every time, which apparently he felt were optional in FF14 much to our chagrin.

  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Yes my posts where I criticize Blizzard instead of taking the easy route of just blaming Activision and I criticize Blizzard for the extremely dumb decisions they make. The posts where I compare Blizzard not to an evil soulless mega corporation but to the family golden retriever that shits on the carpet randomly, those just ooze fanboy. If that's the only retort you've got to me simply pointing out that FFXIV occupies an entirely different space in the MMO market than WoW that's kind of sad tbh.







    Show me one person who has actually done both who says that anything in FFXIV is more challenging / competitve WoW's mythic raiding and keep ignoring that FFXIV has no real PvP to speak of.

    I like how saying that FFXIV is a successful game but disagreeing with the narrative pushed by your favorite streamers at the moment who are profiting off of the angst of disgruntled WoW fans generates so much toxicity from the FFXIV mega fans. I'll praise FFXIV for its strong points like a much more social experience in-game, but I'm not going to pretend that it has difficult content.

    As far as calling me an an oozing / raging / whatever adjective you like fanboy, I get called both a Blizzard hater and a fanboy interchangeably with such frequency that if I paid any attention to it I'd have whiplash. You want to talk about what Blizzard does wrong I'll gladly tell you, you want to talk about how FFXIV is the only other MMO than WoW to have a decent amount of staying power over the past couple decades? I'm right there with you. You want to pretend that FFXIV has some amazingly challenging content that rivals what WoW offers in both PvE and PvP spaces? Yeah I'm not your guy there, I prefer to stick to non-fiction. I'll praise a good game for being good, I'll not lie about it to make it seem better than it is, you can tune in to whatever streamer is currently siphoning cash off you for that.
    You said that nothing in FFXIV is anywhere near as difficult as mythic raiding in WoW. This pretty much proves you've either never played the game or just never went past level 40.

  4. #244
    The Lightbringer Ragnarocket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    Yes my posts where I criticize Blizzard instead of taking the easy route of just blaming Activision and I criticize Blizzard for the extremely dumb decisions they make. The posts where I compare Blizzard not to an evil soulless mega corporation but to the family golden retriever that shits on the carpet randomly, those just ooze fanboy. If that's the only retort you've got to me simply pointing out that FFXIV occupies an entirely different space in the MMO market than WoW that's kind of sad tbh.







    Show me one person who has actually done both who says that anything in FFXIV is more challenging / competitve WoW's mythic raiding and keep ignoring that FFXIV has no real PvP to speak of.

    I like how saying that FFXIV is a successful game but disagreeing with the narrative pushed by your favorite streamers at the moment who are profiting off of the angst of disgruntled WoW fans generates so much toxicity from the FFXIV mega fans. I'll praise FFXIV for its strong points like a much more social experience in-game, but I'm not going to pretend that it has difficult content.

    As far as calling me an an oozing / raging / whatever adjective you like fanboy, I get called both a Blizzard hater and a fanboy interchangeably with such frequency that if I paid any attention to it I'd have whiplash. You want to talk about what Blizzard does wrong I'll gladly tell you, you want to talk about how FFXIV is the only other MMO than WoW to have a decent amount of staying power over the past couple decades? I'm right there with you. You want to pretend that FFXIV has some amazingly challenging content that rivals what WoW offers in both PvE and PvP spaces? Yeah I'm not your guy there, I prefer to stick to non-fiction. I'll praise a good game for being good, I'll not lie about it to make it seem better than it is, you can tune in to whatever streamer is currently siphoning cash off you for that.
    There are tons of people who are commenting on this specifically with their own examples and I watched this video the other day that did a good job of comparing the two.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96KtLjdlaRw
    “The rains have ceased, and we have been graced with another beautiful day. But you are not here to see it.”

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    This thread is sad. Its really obvious Asmongold is very popular. Its really obvious MMOC is dying because it is drowning in toxic behavior. And now we have a bunch of hyper toxic people on MMOC attacking Asmongold.
    Asmongold is an always has been an utter piece of shit troll with an exceptionally toxic fanbase. Talking about how he's a piece of shit doesn't suddenly make someone toxic. That would be like calling someone toxic for pointing out all the bad things a politician has done.

  6. #246
    Can't believe people took the very obvious bait of @RobertMugabe seriously.

    The one thing I've found that has seemed true is that the toxicity has noticeably increased around the discourse of this game ever since Asmongold and his...followers...joined the scene. But while I find him pretty loathsome, the toxicity isn't really from him or them. But rather WoW players and WoW players only and are throwing a tantrum about it every chance they can get. Or people claiming things about the game (Like this conversation about difficulty) when its so obvious that they haven't actually played the thing they're pretending to have.

    Is that Asmongold and his followers fault? Still, yes. They cultivated the toxicity that pretty much everybody sees them as. And even if they aren't the ones being toxic, it's not exactly a stretch to see why some FF14 players wouldn't want that kind of madness in their scene. However I would say the most...I don't know...pathetic? group are probably the ones who are contorting themselves to find any reason to hate FF14 they can find.

    I don't remember the exact quote but Square Enix was out there saying that preorders for Endwalker were increased over Shadowbringers by something like 150% and I remember reading this before Asmongold even got involved in playing the game. Sure he's brought more eyes to it, but to pretend that he's responsible for its success is just absurd on its face.
    Last edited by Drindorai; 2021-07-20 at 01:25 PM.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Asmongold is an always has been an utter piece of shit troll with an exceptionally toxic fanbase. Talking about how he's a piece of shit doesn't suddenly make someone toxic. That would be like calling someone toxic for pointing out all the bad things a politician has done.
    Your view on this streamer (while I do not personally disagree) simply proves Kokolums's comment correct.

    Calling anyone a "piece of shit" is toxic. While I get your mindset is "I'm just calling a spade a spade", it's still what Koko was talking about.

    The flipside are those who are just disproving all the ridiculous claims that some of his apparent fans in this thread are unsuccessfully trying to get people to believe. These are not insulting comments.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drindorai View Post
    Can't believe people took the very obvious bait of @RobertMugabe seriously.
    When it comes to his followers, it sometimes seems like bait but they're absolutely serious. When they say "he's done so much for this game", any rational person will smile, shake their head and look past it but they really believe these things.
    Last edited by Necromantic; 2021-07-20 at 01:23 PM.

  8. #248
    Scarab Lord TriHard's Avatar
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    It was actually over 2 million unique views on the first FF14 stream he did, that is a shit ton of people.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    This thread is sad. Its really obvious Asmongold is very popular. Its really obvious MMOC is dying because it is drowning in toxic behavior. And now we have a bunch of hyper toxic people on MMOC attacking Asmongold.
    You need to unlearn the word 'toxic' You're throwing it around willy nilly like as if it actually pertains to this discussion. Stop breathing life into the concept by acknowledging it. Don't throw the crap back at them, instead bury it so they can't keep catching it back and throwing it at someone else.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    Your view on this streamer (while I do not personally disagree) simply proves Kokolums's comment correct.

    Calling anyone a "piece of shit" is toxic. While I get your mindset is "I'm just calling a spade a spade", it's still what Koko was talking about.

    The flipside are those who are just disproving all the ridiculous claims that some of his apparent fans in this thread are unsuccessfully trying to get people to believe. These are not insulting comments.

    - - - Updated - - -



    When it comes to his followers, it sometimes seems like bait but they're absolutely serious. When they say "he's done so much for this game", any rational person will smile, shake their head and look past it but they really believe these things.
    He has gleefully told people to troll others in the past. Now he "disapproves of it" but the damage has already been done. His entire career was built off being a troll and encouraging his fans to be trolls. People in FFXIV are already frustrated with Asmongold fans making things difficult in game. Thankfully SE is pretty good about banning trolls.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    He has gleefully told people to troll others in the past. Now he "disapproves of it" but the damage has already been done. His entire career was built off being a troll and encouraging his fans to be trolls. People in FFXIV are already frustrated with Asmongold fans making things difficult in game. Thankfully SE is pretty good about banning trolls.
    You're not wrong in any of that, trust me. I know how he is, which is why my brain cannot compute why people STILL not only watch this guy but reference him, give him free money and take what he says as gospel. I honestly (and I mean that sincerely) do feel bad for these people. There is naive and then there is this level which goes well above and beyond.

    The point I was making was that Koko was just talking about people insulting him but it was mostly people pointing out how many of the claims about him are simply not true, such as "he's done so much for the game." Lol please, the game had over 10M subscribers before he was even an entity and it's only been on a decline since his existence.

    Sycophant: B..b..b..but... the population went up a lot at the beginning of the expansion, RIGHT AFTER he made a stream talking about the expansion!

    Everyone else: ... it's a new expansion... many people come back to try it. That's why the population spiked.

    Sycophant: Noooooooo! It's because he talked about it!
    Last edited by Necromantic; 2021-07-20 at 01:35 PM.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Drindorai View Post
    Can't believe people took the very obvious bait of @RobertMugabe seriously.

    The one thing I've found that has seemed true is that the toxicity has noticeably increased around the discourse of this game ever since Asmongold and his...followers...joined the scene. But while I find him pretty loathsome, the toxicity isn't really from him or them. But rather WoW players and WoW players only and are throwing a tantrum about it every chance they can get. Or people claiming things about the game (Like this conversation about difficulty) when its so obvious that they haven't actually played the thing they're pretending to have.

    Is that Asmongold and his followers fault? Still, yes. They cultivated the toxicity that pretty much everybody sees them as. And even if they aren't the ones being toxic, it's not exactly a stretch to see why some FF14 players wouldn't want that kind of madness in their scene. However I would say the most...I don't know...pathetic? group are probably the ones who are contorting themselves to find any reason to hate FF14 they can find.

    I don't remember the exact quote but Square Enix was out there saying that preorders for Endwalker were increased over Shadowbringers by something like 150% and I remember reading this before Asmongold even got involved in playing the game. Sure he's brought more eyes to it, but to pretend that he's responsible for its success is just absurd on its face.
    To be honest, I think the XIV community has been giving as good as it gets recently. I've seen some pretty incredible crap coming out of people in-game aimed at, "You toxic WoW people!!" like some kind of crazy immigrants-gonna-ruin-my-neighborhood paranoia or something.

  13. #253
    So, what we've seen in this thread is a couple things:

    A) People who hate Asmongold will call anything positive about him as toxic and a bunch of other derogatory things.

    B) People who like Asmongold will defend anything he says or does from those who hate him, regardless of what he's said or done.

    C) Both A and B realizing that both can be both right and wrong in their stances at the same time, but often are too stubborn to accept thus.

    I'm not really a fan of him per se, but I do find him somewhat entertaining at times and honestly feel that he's been a positive thing for FFXIV and his presence alone will draw in a healthy amount of people to the game. The proble is that we get into some subtle elitism as a result, as it starts to get into the "Country Club Golf Course" style viewing from some folks who will look as some of the new players as "not our kind of people we want here" and turn their nose up at them. Naturally, they'll deny that's not how they're acting and will resort to lengthy retorts of denial or simply result to insults. Still doesn't change the fact of how they are.

    Personally, Asmongold helped push me over from "kinda sorta maybe thinking about it" to actually paying for the game and having an active monthly sub now.

  14. #254
    Honest question:

    Did Asmongold behave in a toxic manner whatsoever while he was playing?
    I really couldn't care less about what he did in the past and in other games tbh.
    People lose their shits about how easy it is to ban a player when he acts like a dick and stuff - but now all of a sudden, they fear about their "safe place" or something?
    Jeez, if some Asmon-fanboy is acting like a dick, report him and be done with it.

    Can't really say Asmongold himself acted like a dick when he was playing, but that might have been youtube cherrypicking the good scenes of him playing FFXIV.

    Can't help but think that once again, there is this minority of mouthbreathers who think they are more important than others and they own a really loud keyboard.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-07-20 at 01:50 PM.

  15. #255
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Did Asmongold behave in a toxic manner whatsoever while he was playing?
    No, it's a meme that keeps getting regurgitated by people who don't even watch him because some people don't like that he's popular. He's unironically chiller than many people on the official FFXIV forums.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2021-07-20 at 02:03 PM.

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  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Honest question:

    Did Asmongold behave in a toxic manner whatsoever while he was playing?
    Yeah, to echo what Val said, Asmongold actually seemed to be incredibly chill and positive while playing.

    I'm not a fan of the guy at all, but honestly he gave nothing but positive impressions to anyone watching him play XIV.

  17. #257
    I've stopped caring about the term 'toxic' because it's laughably overused and generally pushed by those who make an effort to go out of their way to be offended by things because they're either uptight or extremely manipulative and ready to weaponise such terms in an effort to benefit themselves.

    I'd also note, the FFXIV community has a major issue with gatekeeping. Asmongold being as popular as he is makes it impossible for him to be shut out of the community, however - which I suspect is why there's a lot of grumbling about him from certain parties.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    No, it's a meme that keeps getting regurgitated by people who don't even watch him because some people don't like that he's popular. He's unironically chiller than many people on the official FFXIV forums.
    I'm sure it's a meme for the video of him joining FFXIV but in general, he's not good. And surely people don't like that he's popular. There are people in the world who are popular because they've actually done something. There are also people in the world who are popular for the wrong reasons and probably shouldn't be such as him, Bhad Bhabie or the Kardashians

    And anyone is chiller than people on the official FFXIV forums. I've seen people there give newer players death threats for simply saying they're not comfortable doing DPS as a healer.

  19. #259
    I doubt getting a swarm of drooling 14 year old twitch kids is a good thing for a community.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantic View Post
    And anyone is chiller than people on the official FFXIV forums. I've seen people there give newer players death threats for simply saying they're not comfortable doing DPS as a healer.
    One time, in an XIV stream, someone asked about healer DPS and I said something to the effect of, "Green DPS isn't just a meme, you can easily out-damage DPS classes on dungeon pulls, not that it really matters." (Meaning that it doesn't really matter if a healer is above a DPS on a quick dungeon trash pull.)

    But people thought I meant that it didn't matter if you were DPSing as a healer, and boy did I suddenly get a metric fuckton of @'s telling me, "People like you just waste everyone's time, what's wrong with you, why are you so lazy, your entitlement is disgusting, we don't want to spend a hour in a dungeon, etc etc"

    Yeah, my fault for being vague, but damn there are just some things that the community is fucking rabid about. As soon as they're out from under the watchful eye of SE, they'll let you know it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Farora View Post
    I doubt getting a swarm of drooling 14 year old twitch kids is a good thing for a community.
    It's an MMO community, you're a little late to the party there.

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