Who's to blame here?

[Lolites]

Should do away with keys really and just let people select the difficulty they want.

not that i disagree, but how would that help with "problem" op have?

[Smallfruitbat]

I had this argument with a guildie recently. Players are far too quick to blame 'the system' when they get declined.

Sorry, but if you apply to a key as a DPS warrior and the group prefer a caster with blood lust or a battle rezzer or a specific covenant and you get declined its purely that you weren't what they were looking for. There is no means to communicate this and so people throw their hands up in horror and start blaming toxicity or Blizzard when its neither.

[Lolites]

People get declined, because they are 1 lower ilvl than the next guy.

in other words, you wanted to be invited even though there is better candidate... bit self-centered isnt it?
or to rephrase, why decline the other guy and invite you, he have better gear (even though by tiny bit), so he is better candidate, WHY should you get ahead of him?
i mean lets ignore other, literaly hundreds of reasons (armor stack, melee/caster, bloodlust, covenant, experience, just to name few big ones), and say its only about the gear, why should you get invited and not the guy with BETTER gear?

[Blightrose]

It's the players fault, definately the players.

[Lolites]

It's the players fault, definately the players.

ofc it is, that shouldnt even be a question... its like OP never played any other multiplayer game...

[Hellobolis]

I had this argument with a guildie recently. Players are far too quick to blame 'the system' when they get declined.

Sorry, but if you apply to a key as a DPS warrior and the group prefer a caster with blood lust or a battle rezzer or a specific covenant and you get declined its purely that you weren't what they were looking for. There is no means to communicate this and so people throw their hands up in horror and start blaming toxicity or Blizzard when its neither.

while that's a fair reason to get declined, there certainly are big differences in the desirability of some classes/specs.

if one group doesn't need your class there should be some other configuration that does want you. but there's always a handful of specs that fall through the cracks (and not just in m+).

and all too often the answer these days is that you are expected to reroll.

[Onikaroshi]

and all too often the answer these days is that you are expected to reroll.

no, the answer is make your own groups or find a guild to do these and stop pugging.

[Smallfruitbat]

while that's a fair reason to get declined, there certainly are big differences in the desirability of some classes/specs.

if one group doesn't need your class there should be some other configuration that does want you. but there's always a handful of specs that fall through the cracks (and not just in m+).

and all too often the answer these days is that you are expected to reroll.

No one EXPECTS you to reroll, but if you want an easier time in LFG then that may be the path of least resistence. There are ways to increase your chances, if you are the relevant covenant for the instance, whisper the leader. Are you an engineer with a battle res? Let them know. Its not a guarantee but it ups your chances.

[dacoolist]

Who's to blame here?


[1]Blizzard for developing such systems where it breeds toxic behaviour or the type of players that are in the WoW Community?


Scenario Case:

Mythic+ as a function is great idea. It produces replayability, may replace raiding to an extent, but the premade LFG system is a disaster. I now see people more speaking about the mythic+ situation, where you get declined for many hours at a time, leaving majority of players frustrated.

On the flip side I understand mythic+ key holders want a smooth/fast run, because it is too punshing if you fail, the cycle will continue, unless Blizzard decides to lesser the punishements, then people wouldn't care about success/failure ratio and decrease the decline ratio followed by increased Accept ratio in the LFG Premade tool.

Coming back to the point made in [1], who is to blame, at the end of the day?

Blizzard creates great content like M+ all of the time, the issue is that the community doesn't accept that the system is the best system possible and comes onto the forms to complain because they can't handle being denied into M+

I was in the top 500 in the world last Tuesday when I got KSM day 1 in North America. Was that tough? No, because everyone was busy raiding so I spent multiple hours running 15/16s to get KSM as quickly as I could - my point: Just because I was the top 500 on earth in terms of IO, I still got denied a TON.. Did I give a shit? No.

People need to grow some thicker skin and understand that being denied in M+ doesn't mean you have to come to the forums and QQ that you got denied, just queue up for another and move the F on.

[Smallfruitbat]

There are also a lot of communities out there aimed at running keys. Most advertise on the forums. You have to abide by their rules, the ones I belong to are pretty strict on behaviour (no toxicity) its an easy way to make some friends.

[Mardux]

That's easy- BOTH

1) Players are completely responsible for their own behavior. Just because the reward system is poorly designed does not give someone free reign to act like a douche. Those people are childish and immature (obviously).

2) Blizz does bear responsibility towards the community in it's games and the poor design of a reward/ end game system that directly promotes this behavior.
To just throw up your hands and say something like "it's a community problem" just makes them look ignorant, lazy and ineffective (they can't fix the system they designed).

If I had to chose who was more at fault, I would say Blizzard for one reason:

They allow the situation to continue because they profit off it and they don't want to crack down on the try hards because they are afraid to lose subs. When you take the money, the responsibility comes with it, whether you like it or not.

The “douche” players reward off of it just as well. There is no downside to the community just rolling along with the hate train it continues to foster towards certain specs. They lose nothing by deciding “yeah, fuck surv hunters and feral druids and spriests and etc.”

Blizzard could change those specs to make them more desirable in keys, but the players would just pick a different spec to pariah for the sake of it.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard creates great content like M+ all of the time, the issue is that the community doesn't accept that the system is the best system possible and comes onto the forms to complain because they can't handle being denied into M+

I was in the top 500 in the world last Tuesday when I got KSM day 1 in North America. Was that tough? No, because everyone was busy raiding so I spent multiple hours running 15/16s to get KSM as quickly as I could - my point: Just because I was the top 500 on earth in terms of IO, I still got denied a TON.. Did I give a shit? No.

People need to grow some thicker skin and understand that being denied in M+ doesn't mean you have to come to the forums and QQ that you got denied, just queue up for another and move the F on.

Nice job on completely missing the point of the entire post.

[Alroxas]

Who's to blame here?
[1]Blizzard for developing such systems where it breeds toxic behaviour or the type of players that are in the WoW Community?

Players

Scenario Case:Mythic+

The M+ issue is 100% a player issue. First off, consider the intended audience for M+ as defined by Blizzard: it's for folks who regularly play together (i.e. Guild mates, online friends). In those a aforementioned audience, you don't have rage-quity issues because there already exists a social contract to enforce unacceptable behavior.

However, the community of WoW has taken M+ to PuG levels because of various reasons which we won't rehash here. The general issue is that the anonymity of being able to group up across servers means that players don't have any social accountability. But at the same time, since these are player created groups, the ultimate responsibility of picking/choosing players is up to the group leader and not Blizzard's.

Granted, could Blizzard provide more tools to allow a group leader to make a better decision? Sure, I think we would all like better tools and M+ score is a step in that direction.

[Mardux]

I had this argument with a guildie recently. Players are far too quick to blame 'the system' when they get declined.

Sorry, but if you apply to a key as a DPS warrior and the group prefer a caster with blood lust or a battle rezzer or a specific covenant and you get declined its purely that you weren't what they were looking for. There is no means to communicate this and so people throw their hands up in horror and start blaming toxicity or Blizzard when its neither.

Really? What’s all that “note if [covenant]” or “need lust” stuff I see in group names and/or group descriptions all the time? How is that not communicating what the group is looking for?

[Smallfruitbat]

Really? What’s all that “note if [covenant]” or “need lust” stuff I see in group names and/or group descriptions all the time? How is that not communicating what the group is looking for?

In the sense that you don't give a reason for declining/accepting people. It's not a job interview. And a lot of players (in my experience) just click to apply without adding details.

[dacoolist]

The “douche” players reward off of it just as well. There is no downside to the community just rolling along with the hate train it continues to foster towards certain specs. They lose nothing by deciding “yeah, fuck surv hunters and feral druids and spriests and etc.”

Blizzard could change those specs to make them more desirable in keys, but the players would just pick a different spec to pariah for the sake of it.

- - - Updated - - -



Nice job on completely missing the point of the entire post.

Yeah great job not even making any sense or bringing anything valuable to any topic anytime anywhere. Maybe instead of not knowing anything - do some research and backup what nonsense you're spewing with something else. You're the issue OP is talking about

[Nnyco]

Its the players fault.

If you decide to pug which should be the last resort not your first choice, instead of playing with friends, guildies or a community its on you.

But of course that requires alil bit of work and blaming blizzard instead is MUCH easier.

[Itori]

Blizzard never jumped on stemming out toxic behavior early on, it was up to community policing by blacklisting players from raids until cross server play was implemented and toxicity started to reign.

Blizzard then moved away from the company created by gamers for gamers and transformed into a monopoly ran by accountants and shareholders and now only cares about profits and producing easy recyclable content with an infinite difficulty window and giving rng gear with stat modifiers based on ilvl so mythic can essentially keep players occupied and give them the illusion of fun while devs focus on creating sub par filler content.

Tl;dr: both

[Loveliest]

Both.

Toxic puggers are toxic people in general.
I have a friend who is your typical toxic pugger and his views are very skewed. For example:
- even when he runs with my other friends and i, he wants to not finish a dungeon and drop it if it looks like it will not be timed; the concept of "we need this for vault or a piece of loot even if we don't time it" is foreign to him
- he learns how to play a route in an exact way, as seen in some stream and has no concept of "this grp cant make these pulls"; because of this he can't adapt to changes and is convinced the rest of the grcan't adapt to how "it should be done"
- when he wants to do a key, he has neigh unlimited chances to do it with pugging, repeating until stars align and all works; this means that all grps who failed are stupid, gives him confidence that he can do it with the right people and ensures he never adapts; pure pugs eventually convince themselves that nothing is ever their fault and never try to ask themselves "could i have done better? Could i have prevented a wipe?"
- whines for hours he cant get in a high key group but refuses to befriend ppl; sort of understands that you can only push so far in a grp but does not have the concept of friends ingame
- even with myself and my friends (irl friends) he has a hard time understanding you have to commit and align to play as a group; you cant just want to come when you feel like it, you have to be reliable or you wont get invited unless the more reliable ppl are not available
- he is fine with insulting ppl because they "wasted his time" by not timing the key; for all the reasons above and because none of the pugs are "friends"


But yeah, why do I also blame blizz? Because they don't do much to help the befriending and social aspect. They also have no proper ingame resources to help players get better. This guy has no grasp on things because he started in Legion and was playing solo, learning from streams from world first players only. His understanding is flawed, his expectations are flawed and his social interaction is almost non existant.

Also, blizz allows boosting which for a lot of players has become the easier way to get something instead of making friends and trying ti get better. My friend is also a booster and sometimes but boosts for raids himself, so this is another thing that has convinced him that you don't need to be part of anything to get what you want.

[rhorle]

People get declined, because they are 1 lower ilvl than the next guy.

But that will always happen as long as the group leader has a choice. People want the best choices for the runs they take and that means that things like item level, meta specs, M+ rating (or raider.io) will be a factor if presented with a choice. That will never change. Have you ever created your own group? I take it that you haven't because you would see how there are usually dozens of applicants.

In most cases you are being declined or not invited because there are dozens of others competing for the same few slots.

[Onikaroshi]

It most cases you are being declined or not invited because there are dozens of others competing for the same few slots.

Yup, people don't see the group leader side of it, when you post a key there can be 20/30/40 dps signing up.