Who's to blame here?

[Blackmist]

Any endgame system based on progression and actually playing well is always going to turn into a fucking shit show when you partner up with what are basically randoms. And that's what the group finder does.

It doesn't matter if you're finding groups in General chat, through the group finder, through a website, or a completely random group maker. It is going to create tension and anger as your 35 minute run ends in failure.

Personally, I think the penalty for failure is too harsh and the fact that one diva leaving the group in a strop instantly wastes the key and makes sure nobody else gets anything either is just crap. Keys should only go down if you make a conscious choice to do that. Go up when you beat the timer. Allow replacements (and invalidate the timer) if somebody leaves.

I only run in a guild group. And frankly I don't even do that most of the time. The gogogo mentality was already a cancer before M+, and basing an entire game mode around it has only made it malignant.

[Queen of Hamsters]

The players.

The playerbase has always been mostly young adults, and player behaviour shapes the game. I blame Blizzard for designing the game and staring themselves blind on engagement metrics, I blame players for behaviour issues and whinging about being bored.

[Hyperaffe]

OP you really need to run your own key like 10-20 times and see the other side of it. It's like people complaining about broken things in strategy games. Just do it, you will understand. You will apply to groups differently afterwards and not take a decline with resentment. Walk a mile in someone else's shoes.

[Ryzeth]

I take who I want, decline who I don't want.

If you find that to be toxic, well then that's on you and nobody else. The amount of people I've had who link me random achievements and get mad when I either don't respond, or decline them, is kinda funny to be completely honest.

The onus is entirely on the player, not the system or the company who designed the system. The only ones who are toxic, are the ones who pack tantrums because they're either doing something too hard for them, or something doesn't go their way.

So I stand by what I said where it's the players who get toxic, people just blame the system or the company because they're incapable of controlling themselves or admitting they're at fault.

[sam86]

company... u gave them rights to control game not u a single player
This is like blaming a citizen who passed by ur shop and stole it, while government has no laws against stealing, you don't pay taxes (or money to gaming company) so u also regulate it urself
in that case then blizz has no rights over wow and u can do whatever u want like running private server and hacking it and take all cash shop shit, only then u are blamed for not regulating other players behavior

[Aleksej89]

i like playing dungeons but imho the m+ time limit is the worst mechanic ever conceived.

if i wanted to rush shite i would be playing Need for speed or mario cart, not a mmorpg.

[Better]

They allow the situation to continue because they profit off it and they don't want to crack down on the try hards because they are afraid to lose subs. When you take the money, the responsibility comes with it, whether you like it or not.

What do you want Blizzard to do to "crack down on the try hards"? Force them to take somebody they don't think will be able to time the key, because it will make them feel better? It's their group, and their rules for how you get invited. If they want to only invite people with all the battle pet achieves they're fully in their right to do it.

I don't understand why people get so upset about not getting in random people's 5 man groups. Blizzard has a solution to this, do any Mythic at all and you'll get a key. Take that key as high as you want with your own group. You can invite anybody you want to that group.

[Lurker1]

M+ is sooo boring to me it pushed me to final fantasy 14.

[Mr. Smith]

I think it's ultimately on Blizzard. They want to foster this hypercompetitive speedrunning community for dungeons, but that kind of environment just doesn't work well when you have to balance for like thirty different specs across twelve different classes with wildly differing strengths and weaknesses, plus specs that are close to being outright nonviable in M+. It especially doesn't work well in an MMO where you have to spend tens of hours leveling a class that you like, only to find that oops, this class sucks in your favorite kind of content! Better spend all that time investing in another class!

Mind you, I don't think it's bad to have a hypercompetitive speedrun mode for dungeons, I just think that it's unhealthy for the game that it's the """easiest""" way to gear up for your average Joe. IMO, the best way to do it would be to make a timerless version of Mythic+ for regular players which still scales upwards in difficulty and rewards gear, and then have the version with the timer that awards unique cosmetics/mounts for the people who want to speedrun dungeons competitively.

[Triceron]

M+ is just Diablo 3 Greater Rifts.

The reason it works well in Diablo 3 is because you can solo. It's not mandatory group content.

[Irian]

The players behave and act within the constraints of the game. It's never the playerbase's fault when some system is used poorly, because the developers can and should be able to design with the intent of the players in mind. Even if it is the player's fault, it's still the developer's fault for not thinking of what would happen.

When M+ first was shown and tested, people threw a bevy of complaints at Blizzard stating that exactly this would happen. This isn't some unexpected, unintended behavior, they put in an excessive punishment mechanic and a time limit to boot to amplify the amount of pressure on the people playing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that high pressure and punishment for failure will breed toxicity and elitism.

[shadowmatrix]

M+ is just Diablo 3 Greater Rifts.

The reason it works well in Diablo 3 is because you can solo. It's not mandatory group content.

It's not mandatory in WOW either, have yet to find anyone forced to run them. people who run mythic plus are doing so because they decided to run mythic plus. If you want to know what mandatory group content is then ask people going through FF 14's MSQ.

[jellmoo]

I don't have a dog in the fight since I avoid M+ like the plague, but...

Isn't the 'problem' simply that there are way more people looking for spots than there are spots available? If somebody has a spot to fill and gets 20 people looking to fill it, that's 19 rejections. It largely doesn't matter why they get rejected.

Isn't the simplest solution ti simply incentivize more groups, so that more people have a chance to get in, and the people forming the groups are therefore less picky about who they invite?

[crakerjack]

The issue is that the average player sucks and there’s no clear metric to gauge how well someone can play their class. WoW would be more fun if people just played their classes correctly and lead to more timed runs. That’s not the scenario, so group leaders just look for those with the highest scores with hope that they’ll be competent.

[Asrialol]

I am sorry, but this does not equal to real life terms.

People get declined, because they are 1 lower ilvl than the next guy.

It is a huge problem, that you decline majority of the people.

It is too punshing.

Feels like you are playing a different game than me

When 50+ dps signs up for a key within a minute, of course most of them will be declined.

[Triceron]

It's not mandatory in WOW either, have yet to find anyone forced to run them. people who run mythic plus are doing so because they decided to run mythic plus. If you want to know what mandatory group content is then ask people going through FF 14's MSQ.

I meant mandatory to have a group, not mandatory to do for end game.

As in, it's not soloable content, which is what the core design of Greater Rifts is actually meant for. It's a solo challenge mode with a time limit that gives more rewards based on how well you do. The meta for group dynamics for D3 are composed very differently, and the rewards systems work differently and isn't the primary motivator for doing Greater Rifts of higher levels. WoW is very reward-centric, where you're doing the content for the reward, and group play has an expectation of having runs go well and smoothly and being picky about who gets to join the group.

This generally isn't a problem in Diablo 3 Greater Rifts because the expectations of reward vs time investment is different, and the content can be soloable as an alternative to grouping.

[Seranthor]

Who's to blame here?


[1]Blizzard for developing such systems where it breeds toxic behaviour or the type of players that are in the WoW Community?


Scenario Case:

Mythic+ as a function is great idea. It produces replayability, may replace raiding to an extent, but the premade LFG system is a disaster. I now see people more speaking about the mythic+ situation, where you get declined for many hours at a time, leaving majority of players frustrated.

On the flip side I understand mythic+ key holders want a smooth/fast run, because it is too punshing if you fail, the cycle will continue, unless Blizzard decides to lesser the punishements, then people wouldn't care about success/failure ratio and decrease the decline ratio followed by increased Accept ratio in the LFG Premade tool.

Coming back to the point made in [1], who is to blame, at the end of the day?

Blaming Blizzard because JohnnyMythic wont invite BillyTryHard to a Mythic+ group is garbage. 'At the end of the day' its Billy's choice not to start his own group and instead whine about it and blame everyone else but himself, Therefore it is solely Billy's fault.

[shadowmatrix]

I meant mandatory to have a group, not mandatory to do for end game.

Mythic plus works fine as end game group content, some people just use it as an excuse to be toxic. Even the time limit isn't a problem for groups who don't like the time limit since your not actually kicked out of the dungeon, just let people know your group isn't going by the timer.

[Triceron]

Mythic plus works fine as end game group content, some people just use it as an excuse to be toxic. Even the time limit isn't a problem for groups who don't like the time limit since your not actually kicked out of the dungeon, just let people know your group isn't going by the timer.

And the system isn't really designed to have both parties co-exist. The time limit is an intentionally designed punishment, so of course the meta will be driven towards higher standards of 'gatekeeping' who gets to join the M+ pug run.

The time limit is less of an issue in D3 GR because the reward system is much different, you aren't going to lose out on much besides a low chance at a gem upgrade that you don't really need. The loot drops are the same whether you beat the limit or not; the reward of a faster clear is that you save on time and have a *slight chance* of gem upgrade power progression (which in WoW would be like... a chance of upgrading +2 secondary stat on your bracers). And you don't lose out on progression keys, since obtaining keys is not based on beating the time limit. So its not really a punishment to go over the timer at all.

[rhorle]

M+ is just Diablo 3 Greater Rifts.

Timed runs were added to WoW in Mists of Pandaria in 2012. Greater Rifts were added to D3 in 2014. WoW did the concept first.