Who's to blame here?

[Elim Garak]

Nah. Engaging with liars and doomers got us to this point already. No amount of coddling will ever get them to accept that they are entirely responsible for their own failure to achieve whatever it is they set out to achieve, rather than Blizzard, or other players, or their class, or their spec, or whatever other bullshit excuse they've invented to protect their fee fees. Kowtowing to the weak-minded and/or weak-willed only makes everything worse.

It wasn't about coddling. But humbling. And for someone who doesn't want to engage with liars and doomers you seem to be quite engaging.

[Raisei]

Who's to blame here?


[1]Blizzard for developing such systems where it breeds toxic behaviour or the type of players that are in the WoW Community?


Scenario Case:

Mythic+ as a function is great idea. It produces replayability, may replace raiding to an extent, but the premade LFG system is a disaster. I now see people more speaking about the mythic+ situation, where you get declined for many hours at a time, leaving majority of players frustrated.

On the flip side I understand mythic+ key holders want a smooth/fast run, because it is too punshing if you fail, the cycle will continue, unless Blizzard decides to lesser the punishements, then people wouldn't care about success/failure ratio and decrease the decline ratio followed by increased Accept ratio in the LFG Premade tool.

Coming back to the point made in [1], who is to blame, at the end of the day?

The premise is flawed.

The problem is that people run content only to get rewarded for it. I understand that the rewards are an important part of the equation, but if you only ever look at the rewards and just mechanically run dungeons for no other reason then rating and gear, then the kind of behaviour you mean happens, because sometimes people don't get that reward and thus (for them) the entire dungeon was pointless.

I don't understand this mindset and I probably never will. I run dungeons and raids with friends because I enjoy them, not because of that rating number and that possibility of gear. If you employ this mindset you will soon realize that you are much more relaxed about failing the key.

I know at least one person in my guild who only runs keys for their rating and thus is constantly on edge when in a key, jumping ahead of the tank and dying because they literally cannot take it if a key isn't timed and then proceeds to blame everyone in the group for that. The result is that very few people want that person in their group anymore.

So to answer your question: The player's mindsets are to blame for the toxic behaviour. The system itself works completely fine and if you relax about gear and rating there suddenly is very little reason to be toxic. On top of that, you actually will have smoother runs, because people are not so tense about that timer.

[lockybalboa]

The rot starts from within if you get what I mean

[Twdft]

The game has a level of difficulty always like every game. However there were NO mechanics to judge players prior to rio and when gearscore was implemented blizzard killed it. That was ofc before blizzard was selling gold. Now that its more into the gold selling business than into making enjoyable games the game is going full blown p2w with a subscription to add insult to injury.

Dude what? Everything you just wrote is wrong.

Blizzard "killed" gearscore because it lagged servers the fuck out the more people used it. Blizzard immediately started showing ilvl ingame. Also: before gearscore players were judged by "come IF bridge" and got inspected since the beginning of the world (of warcraft).

[Malania]

Who's to blame here?


[1]Blizzard for developing such systems where it breeds toxic behaviour or the type of players that are in the WoW Community?


Scenario Case:

Mythic+ as a function is great idea. It produces replayability, may replace raiding to an extent, but the premade LFG system is a disaster. I now see people more speaking about the mythic+ situation, where you get declined for many hours at a time, leaving majority of players frustrated.

On the flip side I understand mythic+ key holders want a smooth/fast run, because it is too punshing if you fail, the cycle will continue, unless Blizzard decides to lesser the punishements, then people wouldn't care about success/failure ratio and decrease the decline ratio followed by increased Accept ratio in the LFG Premade tool.

Coming back to the point made in [1], who is to blame, at the end of the day?

Mythic plus creates more toxicity than LFG ever does.

The issue in my eyes is M+ is a self managed player ran system which is why they stick so many self imposed hurdles on it to ensure it's a smooth run. These do and don't work always work. So you have a player base split on it saying hours of declines is shit but at the same time, "I really don't want to wipe and screw the key and waste my time so you all better not be shitters because I'm not".

LFG is basically a levelling system which is irrelevant to anything end game so it's very rare people will create a major drama out of it as ultimately people can be replaced with a click of a button with minimal fuss and you aren't losing a key.

The problem is the self managed system. We as the players create the problems in M+, we do not want to bring people to learn or gear up even in low mid m+ which breeds the current system and it's problems with shit like batshit r.io requirements, mental ilvl requirements exceeding gear drops and a general player base which is hostile to itself.

[KrayZ33]

It was blizzard who decided that you cannot "queue" for a random party mythic+, and that allows people to be toxic when picking the party, and during the whole experience.

What's your point.
Blizzard doesn't allow me to queue into a guild either, so it allows people to be toxic when picking their guildies?

[M1r4g3]

Nope, you choose how you react to things. That's an undeniable fact.

If someone rages at me, I make the conscious decision to either a) be toxic back, b) remain calm in my talking to them, or c) distance myself from them. Only one of those reactions are 'unacceptable'

And why are they unacceptable(in the context of the game), go ahead and tell us.

[rhorle]

Nowdays most players reject playing so they can sell playing with others as a service. Even guilds have started asking for gold to take members in. Everything has a price and blizzard takes its cut. Why change this?

Players are not rejected just so those groups can sell a carry to those same players. They are rejected because the amount of groups are lower then the amount of applicants. You also just dismiss how people have always been rejected from groups even prior to gear score. Armory checking used to be a thing. Gear score, Radier.io and the other tools used over time has all come about because players wanted a way to find out who would be a weak link in the group.

The Token being part of the game has nothing to do with that. Rejection has always been a part of WoW. There have always been guilds that require X from new members.

[rhorle]

Difference today is that if you offer to pay there won't be such scrutiny and many many times offering gold will cut through all the red tape.

You could pay for carries in the past as well. Auction runs were a thing where everyone would bid on items and the gold earned would get split amongst people. WoW group play is not mostly for sale. Don't confuse seeing a lot of advertisments with it being the primary way to play. The community is crap partly because of attitudes like yours. You are not a prophet with some great revelation about the game.

[Ryzeth]

And why are they unacceptable(in the context of the game), go ahead and tell us.

If you're not sure why it's bad to be toxic, I'm not sure what to tell you.

[M1r4g3]

If you're not sure why it's bad to be toxic, I'm not sure what to tell you.

You could start by telling me why its bad to be toxic in wow, if you cant, well, that sums up how much thought you put into it i guess.

[rhorle]

I never claimed to be a prophet, it seems you have a great worry that opinions that you disagree with may be voiced. I didn't even care enough to insult you like you did. Our difference is I can tolerate your opinion. Hopefully you can do the same or at least stop quotting me and move on.

"So next time you or anyone wonders why the community is shit why the subs are dwindling why the game goes to hell, you can come back and read this post. "

Seems like you are trying to be prophetic there. I don't care if opinions that are different from mine are voiced. Just don't try to act with authority and that claim is the only correct one just because you are making it. You keep trying to pin all the problems on carries while ignoring how those things all existed prior to them gaining in popularity.

Carries may have magnified issues but they didn't create them. And most group play is not done through carries.

[Ryzeth]

You could start by telling me why its bad to be toxic in wow, if you cant, well, that sums up how much thought you put into it i guess.

If you need to be told not to be toxic, then chances are you're already toxic and beyond help.

Which, in my case I'm gonna take option C of distancing myself from you, and just blocking you so I don't have to deal with your idiocy.

Thanks for playing, that was easy.

[M1r4g3]

If you need to be told not to be toxic, then chances are you're already toxic and beyond help.

Which, in my case I'm gonna take option C of distancing myself from you, and just blocking you so I don't have to deal with your idiocy.

Thanks for playing, that was easy.

Good, glad we could come to the conclusion that you have no arguments, the ''mom told me to be nice'' one isn't really working in a discussion about human psychology.

[Elim Garak]

What's your point.
Blizzard doesn't allow me to queue into a guild either, so it allows people to be toxic when picking their guildies?

What does guild have to do with LFG?

[KrayZ33]

What does guild have to do with LFG?

What does Blizzards decision to not allow random group for difficult content to do with the problem -since you randomly started mentioning it?
Normal/HC/Mythic has the same "issue" - that's isn't actually an issue at all.

Same thing with guilds.
I have to pick the guys I play with or apply to a certain guild I want to play with.

[erifwodahs]

Right, but coming back to my case, Mythic+ is too punishing, hence why keystone holders are taking the time to find that perfect group not realising that they are declining vast majority of the sign ups. The problem here is that Blizzard made the Mythic+ in a way that breeds that kind of behaviour.

I decline vast majority of sign ups because vast majority of people can't get into the party? You get 60 sign ups for 2 spots. If m+ didn't deplete keys or was way easier, I would still invite best people who sign up because that's logical and rational.

[Syferite]

Who's to blame here?
[1]Blizzard for developing such systems where it breeds toxic behaviour or the type of players that are in the WoW Community?

The game has been designed to focus on raiding/mythic/pvp, and in a way that encourages competitiveness and player segregation since being inefficient or unoptimized will get in the way of other player's ability to attain their goals. I can see how that can be considered toxic to people especially when there are multiple cases of poor behavior, but for many others, this is common sense since their satisfaction comes from working towards clearing those type of content.

I think this is a very simple concept of: if you don't like the group, then don't join them. WoW's end-game content is something I don't like to engage with because I prefer a game to be a RPG first, and optimization second. So I've come to terms that WoW isn't for me, and the only thing I enjoy is the story content that I can do for 1-2 months at the end of every expansion.

I'd suggest others who feel that way to make a similar conclusions because there's nothing to be gained from trying to force them to change their entire design philosophy just cause you had an amazing experience in WoTLK. If the entire m+, endgame raiding, or high-level PvP isn't your cup of tea, then leave instead of going through this entire drama of "who is to blame at the end of the day?" Cause, quite honestly, the only person you have to blame is yourself for subjecting yourself to something you don't enjoy.

[Azerate]

Players: for being toxic manchildren pretty often

Blizzard: for not reacting to toxic behavior strongly enough.

If you get slapped with a monthly ban for using insults, and second time it happens for half a year, you learn (or you are removed from the fray at least). Blizzard seems too lenient, for whatever reason, on such people.

[I HATE CHAOS]

Blizzard for making a system where only one person has a stake in the risk. The key holder takes on all risk involved better systems would have every risk some thing in a run or would remove risk by having the difficulties be something that is just selected rather then it being a commodity.