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  1. #141
    The problem is that a lot of people wanna play a MMO like a solo game and do ALL content available. 99% of time you will be declined because there are applicants with better resume than you (ilvl, class, IO) and the keyholder doesnt have a reason to invite you over them. It is not about toxicity.

    You have 4 easy ways to fix this problem:

    1- Play a tank/healer, If you are competent, people will fight over you in their Group.

    2- Join a guild and talk to people.

    3- Use your own key, then you can invite whoever you want.

    4- Go play a solo game, It probably will suit you better.

    The only thing Blizzard could do to help alleviate this problem is to create some incentives to tank/healers (a bag of gold, extra item for the tank/healer). Or maybe give a bag of gold to players who bring low ilvl people on their runs (boosters would love It).

    But I belive any player can fix this issue, to themselves, with some effort. And stop act like strangers on a virtual world own you something.

  2. #142
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    What does Blizzards decision to not allow random group for difficult content to do with the problem -since you randomly started mentioning it?
    Normal/HC/Mythic has the same "issue" - that's isn't actually an issue at all.

    Same thing with guilds.
    I have to pick the guys I play with or apply to a certain guild I want to play with.
    If you could queue for mythic+ you wouldn't have the discussed problem, at all. People who want a premade would be forming parties manually, people who don't want to deal with elitist creeps - would match in a queue. Eventually, everyone will be using the queue except for fully formed parties of friends or guildies. Zero toxicity in both. Since it's difficult content everyone in the random party would want to win and act accordingly. The trolls will get blocked.

    The same reason normal, heroic, and mythic raids should be queue-able. There's absolutely no reason no to allow that. Except for Blizzard's idiocy.


    So I ask again what do the guilds have to do with that?
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    If you could queue for mythic+ you wouldn't have the discussed problem, at all. People who want a premade would be forming parties manually, people who don't want to deal with elitist creeps - would match in a queue. Eventually, everyone will be using the queue except for fully formed parties of friends or guildies. Zero toxicity in both. Since it's difficult content everyone in the random party would want to win and act accordingly. The trolls will get blocked.

    The same reason normal, heroic, and mythic raids should be queue-able. There's absolutely no reason no to allow that. Except for Blizzard's idiocy.


    So I ask again what do the guilds have to do with that?
    People couldn't even queue for Heroics being hard in Cata without being toxic.

  4. #144
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    People couldn't even queue for Heroics being hard in Cata without being toxic.
    There will always be toxic people. So it shouldn't be the goal to get rid of them. The goal is to reduce the opportunities for people to be toxic.

    The toxicity in Cata came primarily from guild groups who needed 1-2 more people. Totally random groups were fine.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    There will always be toxic people. So it shouldn't be the goal to get rid of them. The goal is to reduce the opportunities for people to be toxic.
    Yes, and people making their own groups is the best way to do so because they get those they will get along with, as opposed to having people they dont want to work with being forced upon them.

    How is declining someone a spot on a limited team toxic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    The toxicity in Cata came primarily from guild groups who needed 1-2 more people. Totally random groups were fine.
    I would say my experience in cata was quite the opposite, with random groups being a waste of time and partial guild runs being rather smooth. You can even see it today in LFR where if its full of randos content has to have its difficulty continously nerfed into oblivion because randoms dont want to properly communicate.

    But supposing I am wrong and you are right. So are you saying you'd ban guilds from using a queue to fill their raid slots then?

  6. #146
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Yes, and people making their own groups is the best way to do so because they get those they will get along with, as opposed to having people they dont want to work with being forced upon them.

    How is declining someone a spot on a limited team toxic?
    Declining someone in itself is not toxic. Just think who gets picked and based on what superficial criteria. This is a system that breeds toxicity without requiring people to be toxic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    But supposing I am wrong and you are right. So are you saying you'd ban guilds from using a queue to fill their raid slots then?
    Lol, no. I would just allow queueing for any content. The freedom will sort everything out.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  7. #147
    Easy fix to mythic+ get rid of the stupid timer and if you fail you don't lose your key. Done and Done.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Definitely the developers, and more specifically whoever was in charge when m+ was implemented.

    Designing a good online video game is more about player psychology than anything else. If you can't predict how players will behave, react and feel your systems will be shit.
    please give me ONE, just one example of multiplayer game design where people cant be toxic...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by rhrrngt View Post
    Easy fix to mythic+ get rid of the stupid timer and if you fail you don't lose your key. Done and Done.
    and people will still invite whoever they want...
    so what exactly will that fix?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dominatedd View Post
    After reading many responses in this thread, I am still convinced, if Mythic+ was less punishable, than players would get less declines. You are correct about the psycholigical factor regarding M+. Players in LFD are seeking the best people to avoid failure in the runs, because if you do, you will get punished for it.
    just ... no
    people would STILL invite whoever they want/think is best how would any change to M+ help that in any way ffs?!
    people would still want run without any issues whatsoever so they would get whoever they think will do best...
    only thing that would lead to less declined people in M+ is if M+ needed 10 players instead of 5
    Last edited by Lolites; 2021-07-22 at 07:28 PM.

  9. #149
    Scarab Lord Master Guns's Avatar
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    Sounds to me like OP can’t do higher than a 5 keystone and is mad

    Check out the directors cut of my project SCHISM, a festival winning short film
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiHNTS-vyHE

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    So I ask again what do the guilds have to do with that?
    Because all you have written could be done for guilds too, and it's not. And you aren't questioning that either.
    The people who want to form a guild could gather signatures, the other peeps could simply queue for a random guild.

    It's funny that you think people who don't want to deal with elitist creeps would pick the random queue btw.

    Because in FFXIV, it's not working like that either - at least not in the west. Not sure if the japanese are actually disciplined enough to have something like a community.
    You have people expecting other people to be the best of the best when queue randomly -> "Everyone who queues randomly should be at *this* level"
    You have people expecting other people to be the worst when they queue randomly -> "Everyone who queues randomly should know that they can get basically every kind of player - good or bad - so it's fine for me to learn this fight, right?"

    You'll never reach a consensus as to who should queue for what and who should use the party finder.
    And that's not really the only problem with that.
    Gear+temlevel, is the goal to clear or is it to time it etc. etc.? all of that has to be taken into account for that.
    You can't just allow a fucking ilvl 200 into a +15 in a random queue. So you want Blizzard to gate it instead of players?
    At that point I'm still wondering why that one guy can't just use the party finder himself to open a group for his +5 key or whatever and invite whoever.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-07-22 at 07:58 PM.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I also disagree with the symptom of the problem stuff. For some people the open world is their endgame. They've been upset for years that they were basically second class citizens because they had time or interest constraints. Now that the gap between casuals and hardcores is smaller, now a different subsection of the community is complaining. The "why do these filthy casuals get to come within 20 ilvls of me doing just open world content" folks.
    And that is exactly what I am talking about; making a proper open world, where there's something to actually do and achieve, making the easier gearing and obtaining of loot senseful for those who have the open world as their de facto endgame.

    The gap between casuals and hardcore players in terms of gearing should be determined by the effort put into the game. If someone objectively falls into the category of a casual, then there's nothing to really complain about when it comes to gearing for these players; casuals in fact do not even need that good gear, unless they tend to explore content beyond casual difficulty.

    Besides, the easier gearing is fine within the current system and people are always going to find something to complain about; people complaining about something doesn't mean said complaining needs to necessarily be addressed by appeasement, so I'll leave it there.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-07-22 at 07:55 PM.

  12. #152
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Because all you have written could be done for guilds too, and it's not. And you aren't questioning that either.
    The people who want to form a guild could gather signatures, the other peeps could simply queue for a random guild.
    Again, what do the guilds have to do with LFG?
    Guild is not an activity. It is not even needed for anything other than itself. You are trying to make a ridiculous argument. That's all.
    And yes, it can be done for guilds and there are games that have that, you can literally press a button, and you will join the guild that allows that and have room. What? You thought it's not a thing? That's how ridiculous your argument gets if we think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    It's funny that you think people who don't want to deal with elitist creeps would pick the random queue btw.
    If you want to do mythic+ but get rejected all the time and don't want to start your own party - YOU WILL GO QUEUE.
    That's a scientific fact of life.
    But most people who are not into creating a party and have no reliable people to play with will PREFER to queue, naturally.
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Because in FFXIV, it's not working like that either.
    You have people expecting other people to be the best of the best when queue randomly -> "Everyone who queues randomly should be at *this* level"
    Lol, no. In FF14 there's LEVEL SYNC. It doesn't matter what level everybody is - they all get the same level in the instance (well within the min and max allowed), it also syncs ITEM-LEVEL and abilities availability. It actually takes special effort to go queuing without level sync, and there are no issues you are imagining.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Declining someone in itself is not toxic. Just think who gets picked and based on what superficial criteria. This is a system that breeds toxicity without requiring people to be toxic.

    Lol, no. I would just allow queueing for any content. The freedom will sort everything out.
    Yes, the freedom to now kick people out of the group for superficial critera instead of just declining an invite. How is having random people forced into your group freedom?

    Making everything queable while maintaining difficulty isn't suddenly going to make groups accepting of randoms. Queable content is designed to be largely face rolled because you can't really expect random people mashed together to properly coordinate.

  14. #154
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myradin View Post
    Yes, the freedom to now kick people out of the group for superficial critera instead of just declining an invite. How is having random people forced into your group freedom?
    Why are you having randoms in your party if you don't want them in your party, to begin with?
    Just because you can queue for everything doesn't mean you can only play with randoms.
    Duh.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post

    Lol, no. In FF14 there's LEVEL SYNC. It doesn't matter what level everybody is - they all get the same level in the instance (well within the min and max allowed), it also syncs ITEM-LEVEL and abilities availability. It actually takes special effort to go queuing without level sync, and there are no issues you are imagining.
    Uhm... when was the last time you played FFXIV?




    and yes, there are *exactly* the issues I'm mentioning.
    It's just not working well for difficult content.
    What's the point of random queues if the group gets disbanded 5 seconds later.

    Unlike in FFXIV Savage content, you don't "learn" a dungeon in M+. You get one guy who wants to finish it quickly and one who wants to take his time.

    And I have no idea why people just don't do this. That's after *6* seconds.. at night.



    Guess what will happen if I wait another 50 seconds before I press accept?
    20 guys will get declined and scream "THATS SO TOXIC"
    I mean, these poor fellas got rejected because I delisted my group as I don't even own that key... but... if you just understand that this is how the system works, there is basically no reason to think you are getting rejected because "all players" are trying to keep you out of it or whatver.
    DPS slots are filled after like 2 seconds. That's just how it is in this game. Play a tank or healer and you'll get more invites. Simple as that.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-07-22 at 08:21 PM.

  16. #156
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    And what exactly are you trying to show? You don't need level sync if everyone is level 80. And there are item-level requirements to queue unless you go premade.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    And what exactly are you trying to show? You don't need level sync if everyone is level 80. And there are item-level requirements to queue unless you go premade.
    "At *this* level" was meant as "at this skill level". So that might be where you and me started talking about two different things.

    on japanese servers it's more common for people who have cleared everything to use the dungeon finder and people who want to practice or don't mind wiping for 2 hours will form dedicated groups.
    In the west, it's 100% random who and what type of player you get.
    It doesn't work here. It's really simple.
    When you say "well these guys can just keep using the dungeon finder", well... then so can they.
    In fact, you can actually do that right now without any problem.
    As seen above with my group finder screenshot of WoW.

    Open group finder -> insert keylevel -> insert intention -> wait for 1000 people trying to get into you group, 960 of them are dps.

    edit: oh and let me tell you, if you haven't cleared the new raid (even on normal, lol) after like 1 day, you are considered shit tier as well and will have problems getting back on the "train" in FFXIV too. So the random queue really doesn't do much. The way to catch up again is with the party finder. But that's probably a bit off-topic - what I wanted to say with it, is that this "service" doesn't reduce toxicity at all when it comes to the "competitive content"
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-07-22 at 08:35 PM.

  18. #158
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    "At *this* level" was meant as "at this skill level". So that might be where you and me started talking about two different things.
    It takes skill to unlock those dungeons so everyone who can queue for them - has the skills.
    It's high end content. For high-end peeps. They can queue just fine for it and they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    In the west, it's 100% random who and what type of player you get.
    It doesn't work here. It's really simple.
    That's some bullshit. it seems to be working just fine. No one claimed it to be perfect. But there's definitely less toxicity in FF14 compared to WoW. Like magnitudes less toxicity.
    All right, gentleperchildren, let's review. The year is 2024 - that's two-zero-two-four, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of still-masked clots ridden infertile senile sissies who want the Last Ukrainian to die so they can get on with the War on China, with some middle-eastern genocide on the side

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    I
    That's some bullshit. it seems to be working just fine. No one claimed it to be perfect. But there's definitely less toxicity in FF14 compared to WoW. Like magnitudes less toxicity.
    Not really in savage content, no.
    Otherwise, I agree. But there is no hard content other than savage/ultimate...so I guess that's probably the reason.

    It takes skill to unlock those dungeons so everyone who can queue for them - has the skills.
    boosts and "help a friend" exists.
    it's high end content. For high-end peeps. They can queue just fine for it and they do.
    my experience is completely different.
    The average wait time for that queue is like an hour for me and not only because the content is "done" now.
    Way more success with the group finder.

    edit: I mean... I wouldn't mind for WoW to have a random queue (yay choice), but it would just be there not fixing the problem.
    That's my opinion on that matter.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-07-22 at 08:46 PM.

  20. #160
    I am in the vast minority here, but I hate Mythic +. To me it has zero place in a MMO. There should be one difficulty and it should never be timed with the exception of enrage stopping cheese mechanics.

    Blizzard games have a habit of attracting immature players, but they have made it even worse with the direction they have taken the game. WoW used to be the casual players mmo, but it is hyper competitive now. Put an already antagonistic community into an even more competitive environment and the fangs come out.

    I put 90% of the blame on Blizzard myself.

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