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  1. #1

    Do you feel like the Arcane mage spec flows nicely in end game?

    I felt after the outcry of other players (non-Mages) after the Firelands era: the spec was turned a bit "overengineered" so it seemed to have had a bit of annoying rotations for a while (especially that targeted rune of power that felt like the clunkiest thing in the entire game). However: I noticed now it is automatically placed and I suspect some guides about rotations "overengineer" the suggested talents picked because they give extreme weight to simulation results when players may actually get better numbers if they make their own optimal style so I don't know; what do you think?
    Last edited by epigramx; 2021-07-21 at 02:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Still rocking Fire. Normally i solo'd wow until SL, i main'd a Hunter (ofc) MM or BM excellent at both, and a Warlock Affliction is my claim to fame, and will do Destruction. I mostly main'd a Paladin at launch and that was to heal and defend my youngsters who at that time loved to chase rabbits, lmao, anyway they are CE players now.

    They, like i, essentially didn't play at all for the last decade (since wrath), returned for every expac but meh. I returned for BFA, the solo questing was outstanding.

    Shadowlands i solo'd where my two boys came back and got into raiding. 4 months in i met the right peeps and they needed a Mage, i never played fire before so thought ok, with no idea what i was getting into, in BFA i leveled all classes to cap just before SL dropped, tested all specs but usually leveled with one spec and that was Acrane, loved it, great flow, smooth.

    I didn't realize fire is a deep spec that requires so much practice and time to start to excel at it, but i stuck with it, and got really good at it, our little raid team downed Daddy D in a 2-2-6 Heroic

    Then... so awesome, thanks for gutting my spec blizz.

    So ofc Arcane to the rescue, i remember excelling at that spec, and so glad you asked this as i wasn't sure if it was the spec as it is now or i was too used to fire, i found it wildly awkward, so much so i'm sticking with fire for the time being, frost is an option but gawd the one button spam is a bit much.

    So far in normal i'm holding my own in 30 man's and can beat out frost and arcane whom are 230+ where i'm only 221 atm (just getting rolling again, was 218 for daddy d 2-2-6), and not always, depends on boss as well, at times i'm left in the dust, but my il is really low comparatively atm so.

    Hope there is more insightful feedback, one thing i know i enjoyed Arcane so much more, as Fire can be frustrating to play at times, timing always has to be on time perfect, all the time, which the nerfs didn't help.
    Last edited by xpsync; 2021-07-21 at 02:31 PM.

  3. #3
    Arcane is best in M+, but you may as well be a brick in Raids.

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  4. #4
    I am Murloc!
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    Arcanes rotation has virtually never changed. Was always two phases: conserve mana and burn mana.

    Burn is simply pop CD's and spam ablast until oom.
    Then you evocate. Then you conserve you're mana. Maybe ablast x2 or x3 and then abarr to clear stacks, depending on your gear. Of course amiss on procs.

    That's about it. The talents really don't change much.

    Fire was always about crit farming. Has much more excitement, especially when you get a nice crit streak.

    I've played mage through each expansion and era at this point. Arcanes rotation has always been the simplest, since it was made a full fledged dps spec.

  5. #5
    Really love arcane in Shadowlands. The Arcane Echo talent with TotM really gives the rotation something else other than the usual AB spam.
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  6. #6
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    The RoP + TotM changes were a real improvement. That being said, I really dislike that Arcane is a second class citizen when compared to Fire or Frost in raids, and even in M+, where it is supposed to shine, it really isn't anything special when compared to Fire/Frost. The fact that a fire mage can burst harder than #$&%ing Arcane while also having superior (or at the very least equal) mobility to Arcane really rubs me the wrong way.

    The only thing that Arcane has going for it is just... Greater Invisibility. Meh.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Arcanes rotation has virtually never changed. Was always two phases: conserve mana and burn mana.

    Burn is simply pop CD's and spam ablast until oom.
    Then you evocate. Then you conserve you're mana. Maybe ablast x2 or x3 and then abarr to clear stacks, depending on your gear. Of course amiss on procs.

    That's about it. The talents really don't change much.

    Fire was always about crit farming. Has much more excitement, especially when you get a nice crit streak.

    I've played mage through each expansion and era at this point. Arcanes rotation has always been the simplest, since it was made a full fledged dps spec.
    Ha ha ha. Arcane is the "hardest" of the 3 specs to play. Fire being middle and frost the easiest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    The RoP + TotM changes were a real improvement. That being said, I really dislike that Arcane is a second class citizen when compared to Fire or Frost in raids, and even in M+, where it is supposed to shine, it really isn't anything special when compared to Fire/Frost. The fact that a fire mage can burst harder than #$&%ing Arcane while also having superior (or at the very least equal) mobility to Arcane really rubs me the wrong way.

    The only thing that Arcane has going for it is just... Greater Invisibility. Meh.
    ? A Kyrian arcane mage bursts higher than a fire mage and a venthyr arcane even higher. WHile being currently better in the raid than frost and fire especially on the later boss (those that counts anyway).

  8. #8
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    I enjoy it. It requires some planning but I got used to it. Before it would give me headache but since Kyrian is my destiny I would not replace this spec for any other. It's good for raid and mythic +, no need to even swap legendaries.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by xpsync View Post
    So far in normal i'm holding my own in 30 man's and can beat out frost and arcane whom are 230+ where i'm only 221 atm (just getting rolling again, was 218 for daddy d 2-2-6), and not always, depends on boss as well, at times i'm left in the dust, but my il is really low comparatively atm so.
    This is just playing with less skilled normal mode players. Equal ilvl/equal skill on SoD bosses, fire is behind both specs.

    OT: I don't personally like the flow of the spec so my short answer would be no. I would suggest testing it yourself and doing some questing or low keys to feel it out. The bummer is that certain legendaries change play style and farming ash is just annoying if, like me, you don't like Torghast.
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  10. #10
    @SirReal

    We're getting in where we can, our team lost players to bcc after CN, so yeah, that's what i figured. I used to love Arcane, and tbh i hated fire at first i just didn't seem to be able to get it flowing right, but that was the lure right, it's prolly what hooks most FM's amirite.

    It's a love/hate relationship with the spec for me, i find arcane whacked, frost meh, the one button thing/stigma. With FM i always feel like there's more to learn, to perfect, to squeeze out of it, it never lets me get lazy.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Arcanes rotation has virtually never changed. Was always two phases: conserve mana and burn mana.
    You must be joking. Before the targetted Rune of Power talent: it was extremely easier to be practically optimal (even if the odd blink was always required) and after it: almost everyone dropped the spec (now slightly improved though still busy according to most talent guides at least).

    By the way: generally about this subject: I feel like most fire mages that hate arcane just want it easy since fire is extremely easier to rotate and it's nothing hard to understand since people like the path of least resistance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    Ha ha ha. Arcane is the "hardest" of the 3 specs to play. Fire being middle and frost the easiest.

    - - - Updated - - -



    ? A Kyrian arcane mage bursts higher than a fire mage and a venthyr arcane even higher. WHile being currently better in the raid than frost and fire especially on the later boss (those that counts anyway).
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    I enjoy it. It requires some planning but I got used to it. Before it would give me headache but since Kyrian is my destiny I would not replace this spec for any other. It's good for raid and mythic +, no need to even swap legendaries.
    Quote Originally Posted by SirReal View Post
    This is just playing with less skilled normal mode players. Equal ilvl/equal skill on SoD bosses, fire is behind both specs.

    OT: I don't personally like the flow of the spec so my short answer would be no. I would suggest testing it yourself and doing some questing or low keys to feel it out. The bummer is that certain legendaries change play style and farming ash is just annoying if, like me, you don't like Torghast.
    I feel like the true core of the discussion around Arcane is that it requires so darn much CASTING IN PLACE in order to work. They doubled down EXTREMELY after the Rune of Power and DOTs additions back in ~late Cata/MoP and since then players of average skill don't go near it hence the flocking to fire.

    However: I suspect the best secret about the situation is that minmaxers probably overengineer their guides based on simulations meaning: it might be an extremely better spec for a guild if certain casting talents are dropped in some encounters.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    You must be joking. Before the targetted Rune of Power talent: it was extremely easier to be practically optimal (even if the odd blink was always required) and after it: almost everyone dropped the spec (now slightly improved though still busy according to most talent guides at least).

    By the way: generally about this subject: I feel like most fire mages that hate arcane just want it easy since fire is extremely easier to rotate and it's nothing hard to understand since people like the path of least resistance.

    - - - Updated - - -







    I feel like the true core of the discussion around Arcane is that it requires so darn much CASTING IN PLACE in order to work. They doubled down EXTREMELY after the Rune of Power and DOTs additions back in ~late Cata/MoP and since then players of average skill don't go near it hence the flocking to fire.

    However: I suspect the best secret about the situation is that minmaxers probably overengineer their guides based on simulations meaning: it might be an extremely better spec for a guild if certain casting talents are dropped in some encounters.
    No ? You always pick Rop because it is far better than the other two for instance.

    Which talent would you drop ? They all work well in all content.

    It is just that people have no clue about the game and just follow their favorite streamer (even when the guy has also no clue) and/or guides (which are sometimes written by people who does not play the spec and do not understand it). And let's not forget those that just look at simC and just pick the highest one on the list when a simC is a patchwerk fight type.

  13. #13
    With Arcane Explosion STILL after FIFTEEN YEARS requiring you to be Disco-Mage-5000 in melee range? Absolutely not
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2021-07-22 at 08:47 AM.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    No ? You always pick Rop because it is far better than the other two for instance.

    Which talent would you drop ? They all work well in all content.

    It is just that people have no clue about the game and just follow their favorite streamer (even when the guy has also no clue) and/or guides (which are sometimes written by people who does not play the spec and do not understand it). And let's not forget those that just look at simC and just pick the highest one on the list when a simC is a patchwerk fight type.
    I don't know if we play the same game. In certain encounters it's a benefit to eliminate the long casts as much as possible. And before you say the obvious: you can't avoid it by learning the encounters since some fire on the ground is randomly placed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    With Arcane Explosion requiring you to be disco-Mage 5000 in melee range? Absolutely not
    I also believe Arcane deserves a change there. E.g. explode on the target. It's already extremely movement-handicapped because it has a mountain of long casts it has to do.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I also believe Arcane deserves a change there. E.g. explode on the target. It's already extremely movement-handicapped because it has a mountain of long casts it has to do.
    I'd probably keep Arcane Explosion the way it is but vastly reduce the damage so PvPers still have a way to like de-stealth Rogues or whatever it is they do.

    And then I'd take something like Supernova and give it 1. A cast time since spamming an instant cast ability feels weird as hell 2. Dramatically increase the damage and 3. Remove the knock up to just make it a damaging ability.

    Bish bash bosh I've fixed Arcane

    Fix blink so you don't blink in place if you do it on top of a small rock or literally anything

    Fix Arcane Orb so it doesn't just scoot accross the ground like a roomba, following every decline in the terrain

    And boom you've got the perfect class and spec.
    Last edited by LarryFromHumanResources; 2021-07-22 at 08:54 AM.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    I don't know if we play the same game. In certain encounters it's a benefit to eliminate the long casts as much as possible. And before you say the obvious: you can't avoid it by learning the encounters since some fire on the ground is randomly placed.

    - - - Updated - - -


    I also believe Arcane deserves a change there. E.g. explode on the target. It's already extremely movement-handicapped because it has a mountain of long casts it has to do.
    I really wonder how am I doing then ? Check timer, use PoM if fire pops under you or FB in last case and continue your burst. Or use better placement. We do play at the same game but not at the same level it seems.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    I'd probably keep Arcane Explosion the way it is but vastly reduce the damage so PvPers still have a way to like de-stealth Rogues or whatever it is they do.

    And then I'd take something like Supernova and give it 1. A cast time since spamming an instant cast ability feels weird as hell 2. Dramatically increase the damage and 3. Remove the knock up to just make it a damaging ability.

    Bish bash bosh I've fixed Arcane

    Fix blink so you don't blink in place if you so it on top of a small incline or literally anything

    Fix Arcane Orb so it doesn't just scoot accross the ground like a roomba

    And boom you've got the perfect class and spec.
    Supernova should be baseline for Arcane so you would something like DB and you would bring an AoE CC to your group. There I fixed Arcane.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    I really wonder how am I doing then ? Check timer, use PoM if fire pops under you or FB in last case and continue your burst. Or use better placement. We do play at the same game but not at the same level it seems.
    Personally attack people as "noobs" all you want: you still don't get the point. Sure: if you are in your isolated world of your 1 guld and 1 group and 1 way of doing everything yes: you may make an Arcane that has a mountain of casts to do become predictable.
    Try now to do that in a group you weren't playing with for the last 20 wipes and come again.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Personally attack people as "noobs" all you want: you still don't get the point. Sure: if you are in your isolated world of your 1 guld and 1 group and 1 way of doing everything yes: you may make an Arcane that has a mountain of casts to do become predictable.
    Try now to do that in a group you weren't playing with for the last 20 wipes and come again.
    Then join a guild ? Like you should do in a MMO ? And anyway, how would that resolve your issue to not burst when a mecanic is incoming ? They would look at timers for you ?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by LarryFromHumanResources View Post
    I'd probably keep Arcane Explosion the way it is but vastly reduce the damage so PvPers still have a way to like de-stealth Rogues or whatever it is they do.

    And then I'd take something like Supernova and give it 1. A cast time since spamming an instant cast ability feels weird as hell 2. Dramatically increase the damage and 3. Remove the knock up to just make it a damaging ability.

    Bish bash bosh I've fixed Arcane

    Fix blink so you don't blink in place if you do it on top of a small rock or literally anything

    Fix Arcane Orb so it doesn't just scoot accross the ground like a roomba, following every decline in the terrain

    And boom you've got the perfect class and spec.
    Your post makes me think about something general about the entire class. Maybe it's not Arcane that has an unfair amount of long casts and other utility handicaps like the proximility of explostion. Perhaps fire is extremely easy to play for being high on the charts on any patch (e.g. the situation with them in Legion was abysmal since they were first in the ENTIRE GAME and they were EXTREMELY easy to play compared to arcane and perhaps even frost).

  20. #20
    Community perception often differs from reality. Arcane seems like an obvious example of this, sadly.

    "Arcanes rotation has virtually never changed".
    False. In Shadowlands, for instance, it changed with the addition of covenants. Many mages are playing Kyrian Arcane now, which is very different from traditional Arcane.

    "Fire has superior mobility".
    Maybe. Scorch pre-execute is mostly placebo for movement, as it is a huge DPS loss. While Slipstream for Kyrian Arcane is very strong, casting your main filler on the run. You also have Presence of Mind, which is great.

    During execute Fire has unlimited mobility, of course. But Arcane mobility is underrated, while Fire mobility is overrated. Learn the spec, practice it, you'll be surprised. Also Scorch/Searing Touch is useless on Sylvanas, as she doesn't enter execute range.

    "Fire and Frost is better than Arcane in raids".
    Arcane is just as strong as Frost in Sanctum of Domination, even stronger on some of the later bosses. Fire is behind. The only boss in SoD that is kind of bad for Arcane is Eye of the Jailer. Arcane was also very strong in Castle Nathria, but not many people played it because of Fires strength in M+.

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