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  1. #621
    Pandaren Monk Yadryonych's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    all of you bitch to high heaven whenever a video game developer does something inclusive and accuse them of "going woke"
    If you drop your agenda for a while, you might notice that valid criticism of someone's art and criminal accusations based on someone's art are two quite different things
    Lives matter

  2. #622
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    No, I just have to live in the same community as people that do.
    You really don't have to. You can go make your own community of like minded people, or join one that exists. But instead you join one that has had a certain aesthetic and then try to critique and change it.

  3. #623
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    If you drop your agenda for a while, you might notice that valid criticism of someone's art and criminal accusations based on someone's art are two quite different things
    Only if you believe that the law is the arbiter of morality. /yawn

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    You really don't have to. You can go make your own community of like minded people, or join one that exists. But instead you join one that has had a certain aesthetic and then try to critique and change it.
    And they say *we're* the ones who want safe spaces. Lol.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  4. #624
    well this took a turn.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  5. #625
    When you're caught like this, with accusations this insidious, in the political climate we are now in, the only thing you can really do is straight up lie and say "no, we're actually good" and hope people believe you.

  6. #626
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    where in that whole video did she or they mention behavior? it wasn't mentioned.

    its insane to think any of that is an indicator that someone would harass another at work. totally insane. a developer does not need to get rid of what they think is attractive, its THEIR game, they are making it. you dont get to force an aesthetic on them.
    Without taking a position regarding Blizzard on this specifically, "it's the creator's aesthetic" is not, in any way whatsoever, a defense against an accusation of it being offensive/bigoted.

    If I make a game where the main character wears red and black with a big obvious swastika symbol, and you go around killing bearded enemies with outrageously, cartoonishly large noses, everyone would be very, very correct to say my game was pro-Nazi and using Nazi-type antisemitic symbolism to support a Nazi outlook. And that I'm a Nazi/Neo-Nazi myself, for creating that game to glorify those things. The creator cannot claim immunity by saying "it's a creative choice", or indeed, even "that's what the character thinks/would do". The creator is the one making those choices, and they bear full responsibility for what those choices express.

    To pick a different example that hopefully won't be political, imagine creating a movie where the protagonist, a 40 year old man, falls in love with and eventually inculcates a physically intimate relationship with a 12 year old girl, and this is just presented as magical and romantic and wonderful. The creator of that work is expressing support and glorification of/for pedophilia. It's gross and wrong, and the author should be rightly called a pedophile over it.

    And before anyone says "but Lolita", A> Nabokov is literally the guy I'm thinking of, and such accusations did fly around, and still do, and there's good reason, and B> Humbert Humbert is presented as an unreliable narrator and not really idealized in the way I was talking above, to boot.


  7. #627
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Without taking a position regarding Blizzard on this specifically, "it's the creator's aesthetic" is not, in any way whatsoever, a defense against an accusation of it being offensive/bigoted.

    If I make a game where the main character wears red and black with a big obvious swastika symbol, and you go around killing bearded enemies with outrageously, cartoonishly large noses, everyone would be very, very correct to say my game was pro-Nazi and using Nazi-type antisemitic symbolism to support a Nazi outlook. And that I'm a Nazi/Neo-Nazi myself, for creating that game to glorify those things. The creator cannot claim immunity by saying "it's a creative choice", or indeed, even "that's what the character thinks/would do". The creator is the one making those choices, and they bear full responsibility for what those choices express.

    To pick a different example that hopefully won't be political, imagine creating a movie where the protagonist, a 40 year old man, falls in love with and eventually inculcates a physically intimate relationship with a 12 year old girl, and this is just presented as magical and romantic and wonderful. The creator of that work is expressing support and glorification of/for pedophilia. It's gross and wrong, and the author should be rightly called a pedophile over it.

    And before anyone says "but Lolita", A> Nabokov is literally the guy I'm thinking of, and such accusations did fly around, and still do, and there's good reason, and B> Humbert Humbert is presented as an unreliable narrator and not really idealized in the way I was talking above, to boot.
    *puts the Lolita sign down* god damn it
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  8. #628
    Herald of the Titans The Oblivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Without taking a position regarding Blizzard on this specifically, "it's the creator's aesthetic" is not, in any way whatsoever, a defense against an accusation of it being offensive/bigoted.

    If I make a game where the main character wears red and black with a big obvious swastika symbol, and you go around killing bearded enemies with outrageously, cartoonishly large noses, everyone would be very, very correct to say my game was pro-Nazi and using Nazi-type antisemitic symbolism to support a Nazi outlook. And that I'm a Nazi/Neo-Nazi myself, for creating that game to glorify those things. The creator cannot claim immunity by saying "it's a creative choice", or indeed, even "that's what the character thinks/would do". The creator is the one making those choices, and they bear full responsibility for what those choices express.

    To pick a different example that hopefully won't be political, imagine creating a movie where the protagonist, a 40 year old man, falls in love with and eventually inculcates a physically intimate relationship with a 12 year old girl, and this is just presented as magical and romantic and wonderful. The creator of that work is expressing support and glorification of/for pedophilia. It's gross and wrong, and the author should be rightly called a pedophile over it.

    And before anyone says "but Lolita", A> Nabokov is literally the guy I'm thinking of, and such accusations did fly around, and still do, and there's good reason, and B> Humbert Humbert is presented as an unreliable narrator and not really idealized in the way I was talking above, to boot.
    this is all total bull. lol it IS an argument. making a video game in an aesthetic you want in NO WAY indicates you will harass co workers. that correlation is bat shit crazy.

    were the orcs in wow running a boar clothing company and then harassing their blood elf female workers? lmfao

    "The creator cannot claim immunity by saying "it's a creative choice", or indeed, even "that's what the character thinks/would do""

    yes, yes they can, like every horrible scene ever made. rape, murder, torture etc. none of that being present means the creator would do those things. total lunacy.

    and finally, your whole, entire, complete post, has NOTHING to do with that was being discussed.
    Last edited by The Oblivion; 2021-07-24 at 12:28 AM.

  9. #629
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    yes, yes they can, like every horrible scene ever made. rape, murder, torture etc. none of that being present means the creator would do those things. total lunacy.
    No. Diegetic justifications for creepy and flawed shit are worthless when the author is also responsible for creating the diegesis.

    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  10. #630
    Herald of the Titans The Oblivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    yes. and your opinion holds no more weight than mine on that.

  11. #631
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    yes. and your opinion holds no more weight than mine on that.
    Yes, considering I just linked a supporting argument for mine.

    Once again: diegetic justifications for creepy and flawed shit are not valid because the diegesis itself is also the author's creation.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  12. #632
    Herald of the Titans The Oblivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Yes, considering I just linked a supporting argument for mine.

    Once again: diegetic justifications for creepy and flawed shit are not valid because the diegesis itself is also the author's creation.
    thats not a supporting argument. thats just some random dude with an opinion. it holds no weight. lol its just another opinion.

    once again, every horrible scene ever made including rape, murder, torture etc. , the presence of those scenes does not mean or indicate in ANY WAY that the creator would do those things.
    Last edited by The Oblivion; 2021-07-24 at 12:36 AM.

  13. #633
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    thats not a supporting argument.
    You can just say you didn't look at the argument rather than pretend it isn't one. Lol.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  14. #634
    Herald of the Titans The Oblivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    You can just say you didn't look at the argument rather than pretend it isn't one. Lol.
    its not an argument, its an opinion. one based almost entirely on a sjw's feelings with no basis in reality. one you can have, but a very, very incorrect one. like having the opinion dog poop tastes good.

  15. #635
    isnt this whole argument close to the whole "Violent video games make people more violent" bs that anti-video game people keep parroting?
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

  16. #636
    Herald of the Titans The Oblivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    isnt this whole argument close to the whole "Violent video games make people more violent" bs that anti-video game people keep parroting?
    its exactly that but worse. its saying if you make a violent game you want to murder your IRL co workers.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    They can think of women as objects and still not harass them? Self-control exists? Why do i even have to explain basics to a stranger online?
    Yeah they can, but do you really want people with narrow minded, and sexist views developing characters for a game that people of all sexes and races play?

  18. #638
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Council View Post
    isnt this whole argument close to the whole "Violent video games make people more violent" bs that anti-video game people keep parroting?
    No, it isn't.

    Media doesn't inform action, but media -does- inform worldview which can then inform action.

    Moreover, this is a discussion of media creators, not media consumers.
    You're not "playing devil's advocate", you're making someone who is likely speaking from personal experience defend themselves against the shitty and oppressive opinion you're too embarrassed to admit you actually believe in. It's you. You're the devil.

  19. #639
    Herald of the Titans The Oblivion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muto View Post
    Yeah they can, but do you really want people with narrow minded, and sexist views developing characters for a game that people of all sexes and races play?
    i could care less who develops a game if its good and they didn't actually harass/hurt anyone.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by The Oblivion View Post
    if they didn't actually harass/hurt anyone.
    which they did, which is why they are being sued by a state's government... which is why we are talking about them fostering a toxic work environment.. Jesus Christ.

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