Activision-Blizzard Sued By California

[Evilfish]

This applies to live as well. Your subscription has never entitled you to new content, it only entitles you to access to the game.

As far as I know new expansions aren't free. Like I said, if all I wanted were functional servers I wouldn't bother buying new expansions and they wouldn't bother making them.

[Bakis]

Wonder when Fran will get sacked in the name of damage control.

- - - Updated - - -

As far as I know new expansions aren't free. Like I said, if all I wanted were functional servers I wouldn't bother buying new expansions and they wouldn't bother making them.

You understand that an expansion is maybe 20-25% of the total content of that "expansion"?`

So you got a point if you never ever played a major or minor patch.

[Evilfish]

Wonder when Fran will get sacked in the name of damage control.

- - - Updated - - -


You understand that an expansion is maybe 20-25% of the total content of that "expansion"?`

So you got a point if you never ever played a major or minor patch.

Are you people dumb or something? I wouldn't care if it's 1% or 100% of the expansion if I didn't care about anything aside a functioning server. Is that too hard to understand or are you just arguing with me cause it turns you on?

[Katchii]

I think the reason that people are calling it out as morally wrong is because the implication that the question gives being asked right at this moment is that if it got patches out faster and higher quality, the customer base would be in favor of allowing the sexual harassment to continue. Because that's a big part of what was happening, it got pushed under the rug and hidden not because everyone thought it was okay, but because dealing with it would mean firing otherwise talented people who weren't easy to replace and it would set the games back to do so. It's like that guy on a raid team that everyone knows is an asshole and everyone hates, but he's also top DPS and you're /barely/ making enrages, so even though everyone knows it'd be better with him gone nobody wants to risk regressing a boss or two by pulling the trigger on kicking him.

People may not be intending to give this implication, but the reality is that maintaining quality and timeline 'at all costs' is directly responsible for what happened.

While that's all fair, without trying to sound insensitive or that I don't care about the people who were involved in this horrible stuff, because I do... but, that's not really my problem to worry about as a customer who is no way associated with how Blizzard decided to treat their employees. That's shit that Blizzard needs to figure out and deal with internally. It's their game, their timeline, their project, their responsibility, not mine or any other customers, to ensure they have their house in order and are doing what they need to as both an employer (taking care of their employees) and a service provider (taking care of their customers).

If their way of doing things was "at all costs," which apparently means forgetting and tossing their own HR directives about equality and everything else to cultivate a good working environment out the window, that was a decision THEY made. It's up to THEM to ensure they deliver to both their employees and their customers what they promised based on their own goals. They failed at one and are struggling with the other. Both of the parties they have a responsibility towards have the right to be upset, for obviously different reasons.

Their employees, and now that it's all public, their customers are speaking out and holding them accountable for not delivering on their promises to their employees. I don't think it's unfair, or morally wrong, for customers to also hold them accountable to the promises they made to their customers since they have a responsibility to both.

We can, and should, stand with the employees and prioritize their well being over our enjoyment of the game. That doesn't mean we have to be happy about the fact that we have to make that decision.

- - - Updated - - -

Your wish is granted: Servers are live.

That's all your subscriptions have ever paid for. Ever.

This is a bit disingenuous.

That money is being used to fund more than JUST server maintenance, and you know it.

[Muzjhath]

As far as I know new expansions aren't free. Like I said, if all I wanted were functional servers I wouldn't bother buying new expansions and they wouldn't bother making them.

So you paid for the content. With the expansion! The subscription is for the servers and profit, not the content. Sorry to burst your bubble.

While that's all fair, without trying to sound insensitive or that I don't care about the people who were involved in this horrible stuff, because I do... but, that's not really my problem to worry about as a customer who is no way associated with how Blizzard decided to treat their employees. That's shit that Blizzard needs to figure out and deal with internally. It's their game, their timeline, their project, their responsibility, not mine or any other customers, to ensure they have their house in order and are doing what they need to as both an employer (taking care of their employees) and a service provider (taking care of their customers).

Aside from Striking, how are the employees to actually send a message to management, board, and stock-owners?

[Draco-Onis]

This applies to live as well. Your subscription has never entitled you to new content, it only entitles you to access to the game.

MMORPGs are live services especially WOW which charges a subscription on top of freemium services, it's part of the deal. I understand your side of it however it's not customers fault that blizzard's house is on fire they did that to themselves.

[Katchii]

Aside from Striking, how are the employees to actually send a message to management, board, and stock-owners?

Each company works differently, with slightly different policies and ways of escalating and reporting stuff like this. A single employee has very little power, their only recourse is usually just quitting, reporting it to some authority and sending an e-mail to the entire company distribution list where it ends up turning in to something like this.

That said, that's really not up to me, I can't answer that I'm not associated in any way shape or form with the company or it's employees aside from my sub fee paying for people to work there.

[Muzjhath]

Each company works differently, with slightly different policies and ways of escalating and reporting stuff like this. A single employee has very little power, their only recourse is usually just quitting, reporting it to some authority and sending an e-mail to the entire company distribution list where it ends up turning in to something like this.

That said, that's really not up to me, I can't answer that I'm not associated in any way shape or form with the company or it's employees aside from my sub fee paying for people to work there.

And since this has been going on for years, I assume lots of employees have tried all of those ways. But this happening, and the Acti-Blizz leadership response having been catastrophically bad is acting as the straw that broke the camels back.
Hence, they are not working.

And strikes work.

[Endus]

As far as I know new expansions aren't free. Like I said, if all I wanted were functional servers I wouldn't bother buying new expansions and they wouldn't bother making them.

This is a bit disingenuous.

That money is being used to fund more than JUST server maintenance, and you know it.

Feel free to go look at the marketing materials for pretty much any expansion of WoW. You won't see any promises of future content release on there. Blizzard could launch a new expansion, charge the full $50, and then do nothing but server maintenance for 4 years, no additional content or balance patches, and you'd get what you're paying for. Those extra content releases aren't actually part of what you paid for; they're a bonus.

It's an expectation you've developed, because Blizzard has typically had 3-4 major content patches per expansion, and even going back to the original game. But it's not what you actually paid for. It's effectively "bonus content"; freebies Blizzard gives away.

Could Blizzard have been successful without those updates? Nope. But the point is, they could at any time just . . . not do more updates, and customers would have zero legal recourse or capacity to claim they were defrauded. You weren't. The expansion cost covers launch material. The sub fee covers server access. That's it. Everything else is a freebie. Precisely so when issues come up, like this, fans can't cause legal trouble for the developers.

- - - Updated - - -

MMORPGs are live services especially WOW which charges a subscription on top of freemium services, it's part of the deal. I understand your side of it however it's not customers fault that blizzard's house is on fire they did that to themselves.

If it's "part of the deal", feel free to point to where it's spelled out in writing.

Assumptions by customers aren't actually part of contractual agreements.

[Draco-Onis]

If it's "part of the deal", feel free to point to where it's spelled out in writing.

Assumptions by customers aren't actually part of contractual agreements.

That's where the customers can leave and take their money elsewhere but to pretend that updates are not part of the live services model is ludicrous.

[Sodia]

Feel free to go look at the marketing materials for pretty much any expansion of WoW. You won't see any promises of future content release on there. Blizzard could launch a new expansion, charge the full $50, and then do nothing but server maintenance for 4 years, no additional content or balance patches, and you'd get what you're paying for. Those extra content releases aren't actually part of what you paid for; they're a bonus.

It's an expectation you've developed, because Blizzard has typically had 3-4 major content patches per expansion, and even going back to the original game. But it's not what you actually paid for. It's effectively "bonus content"; freebies Blizzard gives away.

Could Blizzard have been successful without those updates? Nope. But the point is, they could at any time just . . . not do more updates, and customers would have zero legal recourse or capacity to claim they were defrauded. You weren't. The expansion cost covers launch material. The sub fee covers server access. That's it. Everything else is a freebie. Precisely so when issues come up, like this, fans can't cause legal trouble for the developers.

- - - Updated - - -


If it's "part of the deal", feel free to point to where it's spelled out in writing.

Assumptions by customers aren't actually part of contractual agreements.

well, there is a simple way to fix it and it is to stop giving them money for a simple month or two and just watch how the 5 billion bubbles are bursting. When the ungrateful bastard loos the golden goose and their stocks start to crumble and no more bonus for Boby! They will change their tones.

[Katchii]

Feel free to go look at the marketing materials for pretty much any expansion of WoW. You won't see any promises of future content release on there. Blizzard could launch a new expansion, charge the full $50, and then do nothing but server maintenance for 4 years, no additional content or balance patches, and you'd get what you're paying for. Those extra content releases aren't actually part of what you paid for; they're a bonus.

It's an expectation you've developed, because Blizzard has typically had 3-4 major content patches per expansion, and even going back to the original game. But it's not what you actually paid for. It's effectively "bonus content"; freebies Blizzard gives away.

Could Blizzard have been successful without those updates? Nope. But the point is, they could at any time just . . . not do more updates, and customers would have zero legal recourse or capacity to claim they were defrauded. You weren't. The expansion cost covers launch material. The sub fee covers server access. That's it. Everything else is a freebie. Precisely so when issues come up, like this, fans can't cause legal trouble for the developers.

If it's "part of the deal", feel free to point to where it's spelled out in writing.

Assumptions by customers aren't actually part of contractual agreements.

No one has said, that I'm aware of, anything about contractual agreements or any other kind of legal commitment. It's the expectation that players have come to expect based on years of Blizzard cultivating that relationship where you pay a subscription and they'll keep working on the game and pushing out new content that entices you to come back and continue paying that sub.

It not being a legal commitment is just as you said, so they can't get into legal trouble if they don't meet that agreement, that doesn't mean they won't lose customers or get a bad reputation as a result of them not delivering on the things they've committed to.

[Specialka]

No one has said, that I'm aware of, anything about contractual agreements or any other kind of legal commitment. It's the expectation that players have come to expect based on years of Blizzard cultivating that relationship where you pay a subscription and they'll keep working on the game and pushing out new content that entices you to come back and continue paying that sub.

It not being a legal commitment is just as you said, so they can't get into legal trouble if they don't meet that agreement, that doesn't mean they won't lose customers or get a bad reputation as a result of them not delivering on the things they've committed to.

It was already like that when EQ was live, or DAOC if that matters. It is expected because it always has been like that..

[Deadite]

That's where the customers can leave and take their money elsewhere but to pretend that updates are not part of the live services model is ludicrous.

Enough of them don't no matter how long there is no content. Was it 14 months or something at the end of MoP? People just kept on playing. They have enough core players who will throw money at them no matter what they do.

[Forogil]

This is a bit disingenuous.

That money is being used to fund more than JUST server maintenance, and you know it.

People are confused legal obligations with practical obligations, and it's not as clear-cut - but it seems that people love making disingenuous claims here.

Similarly as when you go to a restaurant and order from the menu you expect that the chef did more than just cook the listed ingredients.
And if that fails you are unlikely to go back, and you don't see many 5-star reviews saying just "the fish was cooked and could be eaten".

And it's not clear that it's factually correct, as people not only buy subs but also buy expansions, and what WoW expansions has advertised since Wrath is a bit more than is contained in the original patch. In Wrath you were told you would face the Lich King, and in Shadowlands we are told we must investigate a conspiracy to unmake the cosmos, and help Warcraft legends journey back... or fulfill their ultimate destiny. To say that the original patch contained that would be too stretch it a far bit.

However, even if people want more and more better stories from WoW-developers the first part would be to get their act together; and have their own redemption arc.

[Draco-Onis]

Enough of them don't no matter how long there is no content. Was it 14 months or something at the end of MoP? People just kept on playing. They have enough core players who will throw money at them no matter what they do.

I disagree the decline of the player base is the reason Blizzard no longer releases subscription numbers but engagement. The base has been in decline for a long time now. It's simple math the less people play the less they can monetize, world of warcraft could lose 50% of their customers and still be fine.

Wow is simply too old and iconic to just fail but just because the game can't die doesn't mean losing billions of dollars in potential customers doesn't hurt.

[Yuujin]

Ignorance is not a bliss. People like you is the reason why game industry has turned into such a shit show. Game companies and developers have no accountability, no sense of responsibility, so they rape, plunder and move on. Congratualtions on enabling a disgusting culture.

Really, because you seem to be pretty ignorant about the contract you entered into when you gave Blizzard your subscription money.

You're feeding money to a company and enabling that disgusting culture that you are accusing others of enabling and lying to yourself to make yourself feel better about it. Reality doesn't care about your feelings so I congratulate you on enabling a disgusting culture.

[Lynarii]

While that's all fair, without trying to sound insensitive or that I don't care about the people who were involved in this horrible stuff, because I do... but, that's not really my problem to worry about as a customer who is no way associated with how Blizzard decided to treat their employees. That's shit that Blizzard needs to figure out and deal with internally. It's their game, their timeline, their project, their responsibility, not mine or any other customers, to ensure they have their house in order and are doing what they need to as both an employer (taking care of their employees) and a service provider (taking care of their customers).

If their way of doing things was "at all costs," which apparently means forgetting and tossing their own HR directives about equality and everything else to cultivate a good working environment out the window, that was a decision THEY made. It's up to THEM to ensure they deliver to both their employees and their customers what they promised based on their own goals. They failed at one and are struggling with the other. Both of the parties they have a responsibility towards have the right to be upset, for obviously different reasons.

Their employees, and now that it's all public, their customers are speaking out and holding them accountable for not delivering on their promises to their employees. I don't think it's unfair, or morally wrong, for customers to also hold them accountable to the promises they made to their customers since they have a responsibility to both.

We can, and should, stand with the employees and prioritize their well being over our enjoyment of the game. That doesn't mean we have to be happy about the fact that we have to make that decision.

There's a reason why I mentioned "at this moment" in the post you quoted. You're absolutely right in that at the end of the day, you are customers of Blizzard and not friends of Blizzard. Their product is the primary manner in which you interact with them, and their internal workings are neither your responsibility nor strictly your concern while their game very much IS relevant to you if you're playing it.

But it's a time and place issue. People have had (and will have) tons of time to complain about product quality and timing. And tons of places to do so, there is practically an entire forum in WoW General full of people making threads to talk about their dissatisfaction with Shadowlands and the release schedule. When they specifically enter conversations about other topics, like in this case a topic about sexual harassment, to air their grievances over the product it is very dismissive of the abuse that occurred. It's very much a "Why are you folks talking about something silly like women being harassed when you should be talking about their game quality" kinda move.

[Saltysquidoon]

1. An end to mandatory arbitration clauses in all employee contracts, current and future. Arbitration clauses protect abusers and limit the ability of victims to seek restitution.

Every time I read this I'm shocked that mandatory arbitration clauses for employees with no bargaining power(i.e not executive or partner-level) are even or could be legal. I mean I know it's the States but this shit is whack.

Also, google informs me the Feds and California have tried to ban it but it's wrapped up in litigation by big business (shocking).

[Draco-Onis]

Every time I read this I'm shocked that mandatory arbitration clauses for employees with no bargaining power(i.e not executive or partner-level) are even or could be legal. I mean I know it's the States but this shit is whack.

Also, google informs me the Feds and California have tried to ban it but it's wrapped up in litigation by big business (shocking).

Our crazy right wing supreme court made sure employees were screwed.