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  1. #1121
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Except players complaining about the lack of content should be admonished for having shitty priorities.

    If, during a strike, your chief concern is how you'll be impacted rather than the conditions motivating the work stoppage you are broadcasting you are more concerned with your convenience rather than the wellbeing of the people who furnish said convenience.
    Not necessarily but I get your point.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  2. #1122
    To be honest I'm not sure how at least wow and maybe Blizzard come back from this. Metzen and Morhaime, 2 people who aren't even Blizzard employees (and Metzen not for a long time) have had the only sincere apologies. The internal letters were thee worst response they could have and only made it worse.

    So (so) many people I know have stopped playing wow, stopped their subscriptions, stopped their wow podcasts, etc. over this and have no intention of ever returning. This is FAR beyond something where adding or removing an in-game NPC will help. Not to say there won't be people that don't care and will continue to play and/or support wow. But the combination of 9.x and The Maw being super-underwhelming had it reeling, and this lawsuit was like the knockout uppercut. The timing of FF and New World actually being quality mmo competition also didn't help. But mostly, this has been self-inflicted by Blizzard.

    The odd thing is I'm not sure Blizzard even realizes yet the size of the tsunami that is hitting them. From their lack of response (near victim-blaming) it appears they are really seriously underestimating it. Every wow player I know has moved to FF or New World, and many have made comments to the effect of refusing to ever financially support Blizzard again. Meanwhile Blizzard remains quiet and seems to think this is just a minor issue that will pass if they ignore it, which is colossally wrong.

  3. #1123
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    Firstly, actions speak louder than words. When African American women were micromanaged (more than others) at Blizzard (as the lawsuit states) it indicates that a racist (and sexist) attitude where they are seen as less effective at their work, regardless of whether it was stated in those terms or other.

    Secondly, you are plain wrong - and the definition neither included systemic or ideology, and the link between personal hygiene and superiority runs deep - there's a reason the Nazis talked about "racial hygiene".

    Similarly when a Blizzard employee believes that another employee who is member of another "race" must be sexist (or machismo) that is racist. The superiority part is somewhat complicated - historically the same racial stereotype action can go from being seen as bad to good over the years - so that racial stereotyping of a former worker at Blizzard is racist regardless of whether machismo is seen as a good or bad.
    Nazis are a perfect example of what I'm trying to say. I would say that the debunked (thanks Human Genome Project) scientific racism, eugenics, and Nordic race myths propagated by the Nazis are accurately described as an ideology, "a set of beliefs of the superiority of one 'race' over another based on inherit traits." That's how they justified ghettos, the Holocaust and German expansion over Europe. Likewise, White Supremacy is an ideology that has shaped the culture in the United States via slavery, segregation, discrimination in the work place, voter rights, incarceration rates, policing, and so on. The technical term for an ideology of the superiority of one "race" over another is Racism and people who hold these beliefs and act on them are racist. It follows that people acting on these beliefs create systemic discrimination in law and culture.

    Why else would a supervisor at Blizzard ask a black female employee to write an essay on why they deserve vacation time and how they would spend that time but not ask their white counterparts to do the same? I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the reason may have something to do with biases or underlying beliefs about the productivity of that employee based entirely on superficial, racist and/or sexist reasons.

    I also think you can make the same argument about sexism being an ideology as I'm doing here for racism, too.

    My earlier point is that you can reduce these definitions down to just mean bigotry. Which is what some people (not you, specifically) try to do in response to accusations of racism from white people. "B-b-but black people can be racist too!" they say. If you reduce the meaning of the word racist down to meet the criteria you want it to mean, sure. But it's not entirely accurate when you analyze the word beyond the surface. A better word to convey meaning there would be bigoted. Maybe they do hold some beliefs their "race" is superior to the one they're being bigoted against, but do those beliefs qualify as a commonly held ideology? Not as commonly held as white supremacy in the United States or Nazism in the 20th century I'll bet.

    Similarly people can view their own race/sex as inferior in some way and they are still racist/sexist.
    The "Chief People Officer" at Blizzard is a woman (not unusual for tech companies). It possible that she tried and failed to handle this, but it's also possible that she was sexist and thought that women were inferior to men in developing games.
    This kind of behavior is usually called internalized misogyny/racism, but the use of such words are usually handwaved away as "woke" jargon.

    However, the definition of who is a racist and sexist isn't the important part here.
    Let's focus on their behavior being bad regardless, and that it needs to change.
    I don't think you can have one without the other. Which is unfortunate, because discussing the reasons for the bad behavior is usually means for closing a thread like this.
    Last edited by downnola; 2021-07-27 at 04:03 PM.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
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  4. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Except players complaining about the lack of content should be admonished for having shitty priorities.

    If, during a strike, your chief concern is how you'll be impacted rather than the conditions motivating the work stoppage you are broadcasting you are more concerned with your convenience rather than the wellbeing of the people who furnish said convenience.
    I get your point, but "how will this impact your service/ my experience" or any variation of that is a legitimate question in situations like this. It doesn't mean the people involved are not cared about it just means there's additional logistics involved, besides the people, that are impacted by the situation and customers/ others want to understand HOW they're impacted. There's nothing inherently shitty, wrong, incorrect, etc... about that.

  5. #1125
    The Insane Acidbaron's Avatar
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    Not sure if posted yet as i have not gone through all pages but this is a pretty good break down of what actually can happen.

    “My philosophy is: It’s none of my business what people say of me and think of me. I am what I am and I do what I do. I expect nothing and accept everything. And it makes life so much easier.
    ― Anthony Hopkins

  6. #1126
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I get your point, but "how will this impact your service/ my experience" or any variation of that is a legitimate question in situations like this.
    Considering all the sub has ever paid for is "access to the server", not at all. You'll still have access to the servers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    There's nothing inherently shitty, wrong, incorrect, etc... about that.
    I disagree, but it would hardly be the first and won't be the last time that gamers look at the people who make the games they enjoy as soulless automaton to be viewed with more suspicion and mistrust than anything else. But that's a whole separate problem.

  7. #1127
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Considering all the sub has ever paid for is "access to the server", not at all. You'll still have access to the servers.
    Whether you think it's a good question, valid question, or morally right question is not what I'm saying. It's legitimate in the fact that it needs an answer, people wonder about it and would like an answer. Why is wanting an answer to a legitimate question morally wrong? Why does asking the question automatically mean the peope asking don't care about the developers and the situation?

    I disagree, but it would hardly be the first and won't be the last time that gamers look at the people who make the games they enjoy as soulless automaton to be viewed with more suspicion and mistrust than anything else. But that's a whole separate problem.
    Asking how or if the situation affects the timeline for putting out new content, and how it affects the game is not "seeing the developers as soulless automatons" it's a logistically valid question. People who understand that the situation affecting the company will also affect the work the company does, does not make those people evil.

    It's like if you happened to get into a car accident and be put out of commission, either temporarily or permanently, and you were working on a major project at work and your boss asked the team you were working on how your situation will affect that project timeline. That's not an evil, morally wrong question....unless it's asked at a very awkward time (which I suppose may be part of the issue here). It's a fact of life, the world keeps going, business keeps moving, etc... asking questions to understand how to keep that moving doesn't make you evil, or morally wrong or whatever.

  8. #1128
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    It's like if you happened to get into a car accident and be put out of commission, either temporarily or permanently, and you were working on a major project at work and your boss asked the team you were working on how your situation will affect that project timeline.
    It's a good thing the players aren't anyone's bosses, then. That's a question for the team internally, not an answer they owe consumers.

  9. #1129
    Just, like, don't sleep around at work, don't be baiting people at work, just use your time at work for you know, work. Do what you have to, go home, go to a pub, a concert, whatever. Not sure what so hard about it. You're asking for trouble otherwise.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcqY40Kx2RY

    Although this did indeed make me cringe hard. They were trying just a bit too hard to be on the edge of being on edge. Maximum edge.
    Last edited by awadh; 2021-07-27 at 04:16 PM.

  10. #1130
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    It's a good thing the players aren't anyone's bosses, then. That's a question for the team internally, not an answer they owe consumers.
    I don't necessarily disagree, but it's a question people will still ask, whether it's their business or not. I don't think the people asking are bad people for just asking the question. Whether they're owed the answer is a different discussion. Eventually I believe they are owed the answer. With Blizzard still apparently reeling from this and still figuring it out themselves, now is not a good time to do so and I'll agree asking for the answer now is insensitive. But insensitive is not the same as morally wrong, or whatever description was being attributed to them earlier.

  11. #1131
    High Overlord Chilela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biglog View Post
    So (so) many people I know have stopped playing wow, stopped their subscriptions, stopped their wow podcasts, etc. over this and have no intention of ever returning. This is FAR beyond something where adding or removing an in-game NPC will help. Not to say there won't be people that don't care and will continue to play and/or support wow. But the combination of 9.x and The Maw being super-underwhelming had it reeling, and this lawsuit was like the knockout uppercut. The timing of FF and New World actually being quality mmo competition also didn't help. But mostly, this has been self-inflicted by Blizzard.

    The odd thing is I'm not sure Blizzard even realizes yet the size of the tsunami that is hitting them. From their lack of response (near victim-blaming) it appears they are really seriously underestimating it. Every wow player I know has moved to FF or New World, and many have made comments to the effect of refusing to ever financially support Blizzard again. Meanwhile Blizzard remains quiet and seems to think this is just a minor issue that will pass if they ignore it, which is colossally wrong.
    If we're talking personal experiences, most of my own WoW guild is, at most, on the fence about continuing to play WoW as of now as a direct result of this controversy. The ones that stopped did so well before these allegations dropped, and by extension, for wholly different reasons. Although it's highly probable that it's less likely they return because of them.

    I do agree that this is a largely self-inflicted wound, albeit for slightly different reasons. While this lawsuit definitely doesn't help things, the fact that they've spent the last several years courting the same people who would get the most outraged about it may end up coming back to bite them. And the kicker? The subsequent legal battles will likely be wholly irrelevant in their eyes. Even if enough information comes out down the road to reasonably conclude that the allegations presented aren't wholly true, a good chunk of the crowd in question will continue holding their current beliefs about it.

  12. #1132
    Quote Originally Posted by Chilela View Post
    If we're talking personal experiences, most of my own WoW guild is, at most, on the fence about continuing to play WoW as of now as a direct result of this controversy. The ones that stopped did so well before these allegations dropped, and by extension, for wholly different reasons. Although it's highly probable that it's less likely they return because of them.

    I do agree that this is a largely self-inflicted wound, albeit for slightly different reasons. While this lawsuit definitely doesn't help things, the fact that they've spent the last several years courting the same people who would get the most outraged about it may end up coming back to bite them. And the kicker? The subsequent legal battles will likely be wholly irrelevant in their eyes. Even if enough information comes out down the road to reasonably conclude that the allegations presented aren't wholly true, a good chunk of the crowd in question will continue holding their current beliefs about it.
    I’ll continue playing and making WoW designs cause there’s a whole lot of good people that work at Blizzard who weren’t involved in this, who’s hard work and dedication to this game means something (to me).
    Fairy tales are more than true–not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten. -G. K. Chesterton & Neil Gaiman

  13. #1133
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post
    I’ll continue playing and making WoW designs cause there’s a whole lot of good people that work at Blizzard who weren’t involved in this, who’s hard work and dedication to this game means something (to me).
    Well before this lawsuit I find it hard to tie the words 'dedication' and 'hard work' with the finished product in the past several years...

  14. #1134
    I listed to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdwT...l=BellularNews
    and noticed several interesting points (specifically which teams were involved, that some claiming ignorance did know etc) but unfortunately without sources - we will see what comes of it.

    He also stated that a certain field marshal no longer spawn and that other remnants will be scrubbed; I haven't been able to confirm that.

    However, he also mentioned that the 'Cosby suite' puts a time on when some things happened; as the allegations about Bill Cosby only came in the public eye in the mid 2010s (I see times between 2014 and 2016; I believe some in the US can give a more exact data). Clearly some allegations against Cosby were known before that - but not public enough to use a reference that others would directly understand. It could possibly be later as the Cosby trial unfolded, but I would guess before late 2017, since the metoo-movement pushed other offenders into the lime-light.

    And with the next statement I'm done with another pseudo-discussion. It seems that when some see this they think of the victims, others want to discuss how it impacts their experience in game, and some just want to discuss their pet social issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    The technical term for an ideology of the superiority of one "race" over another is Racism and people who hold these beliefs and act on them are racist.
    Or in other words you continue to argue that racism is only racism if it is ideological and systematic racism; despite the dictionary defining a racist without such qualifications. No-one is denying that such racism is racism - they are only saying that other racism is also racism.

    So, when a Blizzard employee has the racist view that Mexican men act in a certain way that is racist (and sexist).
    However, it's not part of the law-suit as the law-suit is about systematic sexism, and the mistreatment of Mexican men wasn't that systematically racist and sexist (and since a large part of the law-suit is about compensation it doesn't fit in that perspective either).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    It's like if you happened to get into a car accident and be put out of commission, either temporarily or permanently, and you were working on a major project at work and your boss asked the team you were working on how your situation will affect that project timeline. That's not an evil, morally wrong question....unless it's asked at a very awkward time (which I suppose may be part of the issue here).
    I would say it's also a matter of what else you say in that car accident situation.

    If you lead with that question it's bad.
    If you start by asking how about their status - like if they are hurt, actually listening, and then leading into the question about the work you can get the same information and still seem like an actual human being. You can also throw in some "oh, take the time you need" for bonus points.

  15. #1135
    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    However, he also mentioned that the 'Cosby suite' puts a time on when some things happened; as the allegations about Bill Cosby only came in the public eye in the mid 2010s (I see times between 2014 and 2016; I believe some in the US can give a more exact data). Clearly some allegations against Cosby were known before that - but not public enough to use a reference that others would directly understand. It could possibly be later as the Cosby trial unfolded, but I would guess before late 2017, since the metoo-movement pushed other offenders into the lime-light.
    IIRC it was "Crosby" as in Bing Crosby, a notorious womanizer from the 30's to 50's.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  16. #1136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree, but it's a question people will still ask, whether it's their business or not. I don't think the people asking are bad people for just asking the question. Whether they're owed the answer is a different discussion. Eventually I believe they are owed the answer. With Blizzard still apparently reeling from this and still figuring it out themselves, now is not a good time to do so and I'll agree asking for the answer now is insensitive. But insensitive is not the same as morally wrong, or whatever description was being attributed to them earlier.
    I think the reason that people are calling it out as morally wrong is because the implication that the question gives being asked right at this moment is that if it got patches out faster and higher quality, the customer base would be in favor of allowing the sexual harassment to continue. Because that's a big part of what was happening, it got pushed under the rug and hidden not because everyone thought it was okay, but because dealing with it would mean firing otherwise talented people who weren't easy to replace and it would set the games back to do so. It's like that guy on a raid team that everyone knows is an asshole and everyone hates, but he's also top DPS and you're /barely/ making enrages, so even though everyone knows it'd be better with him gone nobody wants to risk regressing a boss or two by pulling the trigger on kicking him.

    People may not be intending to give this implication, but the reality is that maintaining quality and timeline 'at all costs' is directly responsible for what happened.
    Last edited by Lynarii; 2021-07-27 at 07:21 PM.

  17. #1137
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    IIRC it was "Crosby" as in Bing Crosby, a notorious womanizer from the 30's to 50's.
    The suit says it was named after the alleged rapist Bill Crosby, which obviously is Bing Crosby's brother - unless they managed to misspell Bill Cosby, which would be really non-shocking in terms of legal documents.

  18. #1138
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynarii View Post
    I think the reason that people are calling it out as morally wrong is because the implication that the question gives being asked right at this moment is that if it got patches out faster and higher quality, the customer base would be in favor of allowing the sexual harassment to continue. Because that's a big part of what was happening, it got pushed under the rug and hidden not because everyone thought it was okay, but because dealing with it would mean firing otherwise talented people who weren't easy to replace and it would set the games back to do so. It's like that guy on a raid team that everyone knows is an asshole and everyone hates, but he's also top DPS and you're /barely/ making enrages, so even though everyone knows it'd be better with him gone nobody wants to risk regressing a boss or two by pulling the trigger on kicking him.

    People may not be intending to give this implication, but the reality is that maintaining quality and timeline 'at all costs' is directly responsible for what happened.
    Maybe they should not have let them come to work drunk then ? Or let them play at video game on working hours ?

  19. #1139
    https://www.polygon.com/22595703/act...lk-out-lawsuit

    Includes some stuff that I hadn't seen posted yet, including the employees' statement of intent:

    "Given last week’s statements from Activision Blizzard, Inc. and their legal counsel regarding the DFEH lawsuit, as well as the subsequent internal statement from Frances Townsend, and the many stories shared by current and former employees of Activision Blizzard since, we believe that our values as employees are not being accurately reflected in the words and actions of our leadership.

    As current Activision Blizzard employees, we are holding a walkout to call on the executive leadership team to work with us on the following demands, in order to improve conditions for employees at the company, especially women, and in particular women of color and transgender women, nonbinary people, and other marginalized groups.

    1. An end to mandatory arbitration clauses in all employee contracts, current and future. Arbitration clauses protect abusers and limit the ability of victims to seek restitution.

    2. The adoption of recruiting, interviewing, hiring, and promotion policies designed to improve representation among employees at all levels, agreed upon by employees in a company-wide Diversity, Equity & Inclusion organization. Current practices have led to women, in particular women of color and transgender women, nonbinary people, and other marginalized groups that are vulnerable to gender discrimination not being hired fairly for new roles when compared to men.

    3. Publication of data on relative compensation (including equity grants and profit sharing), promotion rates, and salary ranges for employees of all genders and ethnicities at the company. Current practices have led to aforementioned groups not being paid or promoted fairly.

    4. Empower a company-wide Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion task force to hire a third party to audit ABK’s reporting structure, HR department, and executive staff. It is imperative to identify how current systems have failed to prevent employee harassment, and to propose new solutions to address these issues."
    Quote Originally Posted by Arch-Angel of Riots View Post
    Until then, I honestly don't care about anything else much. Until then it can all burn down to the ground for all I care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    Yeah, I think it's fair to conclude that "Fuck the poor" "Arch-angel of Riots" is just in it with the hope of inflicting maximum harm for maximum chaos, and since they've shown no particular attachment to any guiding moral, ideological, or political principle, it seems to be for the sake of maximum fun.

  20. #1140
    Scarab Lord downnola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forogil View Post
    And with the next statement I'm done with another pseudo-discussion. It seems that when some see this they think of the victims, others want to discuss how it impacts their experience in game, and some just want to discuss their pet social issues.
    So, when a Blizzard employee has the racist view that Mexican men act in a certain way that is racist (and sexist).
    However, it's not part of the law-suit as the law-suit is about systematic sexism, and the mistreatment of Mexican men wasn't that systematically racist and sexist (and since a large part of the law-suit is about compensation it doesn't fit in that perspective either).
    People have left Blizzard over allegations of racism and it's referenced in the lawsuit. I wasn't making up the story about the woman who had to write an essay to justify taking PTO.



    Or in other words you continue to argue that racism is only racism if it is ideological and systematic racism; despite the dictionary defining a racist without such qualifications. No-one is denying that such racism is racism - they are only saying that other racism is also racism.
    The dictionary doesn't specifically state that Marxism is an ideology either, but that doesn't mean it isn't an ideology.

    Definition of ideology
    1a: a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture
    b: the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program
    c: a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture
    2: visionary theorizing
    Now let's take another look at the definition of racism now that we have a general idea of what an ideology is:

    Definition of racism
    1: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
    also : behavior or attitudes that reflect and foster this belief : racial discrimination or prejudice
    2.a: the systemic oppression of a racial group to the social, economic, and political advantage of another
    specifically : WHITE SUPREMACY sense 2
    institutional racism
    2.b: a political or social system founded on racism and designed to execute its principles
    I don't know, it certainly looks like an ideology to me.

    And I'm not arguing that words can only be used in one way. I'm not the one telling people they're wrong and to only look at one entry in the definition of the word (nevermind that the way I want to use the word is simply a footnote in the actual definition), and if that definition doesn't specifically mention other words then your argument is invalid and is a pet pseudo-discussion that I'm totally above, but let me respond a few more times and argue my case, but keep in mind I'm way too good for this silly conversation.
    Last edited by downnola; 2021-07-27 at 07:59 PM.
    Populists (and "national socialists") look at the supposedly secret deals that run the world "behind the scenes". Child's play. Except that childishness is sinister in adults.
    - Christopher Hitchens

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