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  1. #1661
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Okay, and? The only hypocrisy would be if people were calling people out for saying "but what about the games" were opposed to Disney being investigated/being dealt consequences for its misbehavior because they didn't want its movies to stop being made.

    Considering no one is doing that, the Mister Gotcha argument continues to be silly and inane.



    Being a contrarian pest, we know. It doesn't justify the ridiculous "anyone who has ever consumed a product or service that has been produced under ethically questionable circumstances has no right to complain" because you aren't actually concerned about any apparent hypocrisy, your issue is that people are talking about it period.
    No hypocrisy is saying some dude not wanting his game shut down because of some horrible stuff is worse than you while you are perfectly fine watching Disney and paying for products. He doesn't need to play blizzard games just like you don't need to watch disney shit. Pretty sad how you are trying to justify buying Disney products still just because every horrible shit they do gets swept under the rug after a few months.

    But yeah him supporting a game where women were sexually harassed is totally worse than you buying a cell phone where they gotta put up suicided nets so many people killed themselves because you are ok if the company goes out of business. You'll still buy all the products but if they were to go under you would be ok that makes you a good person and him immoral.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-08-04 at 11:07 PM.

  2. #1662
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    You are still giving them money and consuming their content with a happy little smile on your face. You ain't losing any sleep after watching Mulan, or Loki, or Starwars, or insert one of the million other disney franchises. And I'm not losing my shit. Did I say I care if Blizzard gets shut down? It would certainly suck but atleast Wow's story couldn't get any worse. I was just pointing out a hypocrite.
    But you're not though...both comments (you and Endus) are assuming or accusing the person in question of something they didn't actually say. In your case, you're even adding an entirely fictional scenario.

    "Does Yuppie value a commercial good/service over the issues a company has?"
    "Does Endus criticize companies for their faults, while ignoring other similar situations?"

    What if they said no? Then what? Nobody got-got and it's needless combative digging to hope someone maligns themself by replying in a way to prove the instigator right. But you aren't until they actually do.
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  3. #1663
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Whose feeling attacked? I just pointed out someone's hypocrisy. For someone who apparently cares about others he sure consumes alot of Disney and other horrible companies content.
    Sure thing, Mr. Gotcha.



  4. #1664
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    No hypocrisy is saying some dude not wanting his game shut down because of some horrible stuff is worse than you while you are perfectly fine watching Disney and paying for products.
    But would not give a shit and start going "woe to me" if Disney went belly up as a result of its horrible stuff. That's the difference. QED.

    Also, piracy is a thing.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  5. #1665
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Maybe taking the fun out of making video games wasn't such a bad idea. All you fuckers who were screeching about it are complicit in upholding Blizzard's frat boy culture.


    If people can't have fun making video games without sexually harassing their co-workers...the problem is with them...not with "fun"

  6. #1666
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    But you're not though...both comments (you and Endus) are assuming or accusing the person in question of something they didn't actually say. In your case, you're even adding an entirely fictional scenario.

    "Does Yuppie value a commercial good/service over the issues a company has?"
    "Does Endus criticize companies for their faults, while ignoring other similar situations?"

    What if they said no? Then what? Nobody got-got and it's needless combative digging to hope someone maligns themself by replying in a way to prove the instigator right. But you aren't until they actually do.
    You are right I do assume Yuppie values the goods over the issues in Endus's scenario.
    Is my scenario fictional though when Endus clearly watches all the marvel stuff and gives Disney his money?

    Saying people shouldn't eat meat because it hurts animals while investing in Slaughterhouse USA and eating burgers from mcdonalds is being a hypocrite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Sure thing, Mr. Gotcha.
    What's the point of your post? If he is immoral for wanting a game he likes to not fail then how immoral is it to support companies where dozens of people kill themselves ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    But would not give a shit and start going "woe to me" if Disney went belly up as a result of its horrible stuff. That's the difference. QED.

    Also, piracy is a thing.
    You are still consuming their products and supporting them. You aren't really a vegan if you tell people not to eat meat but still do just because your ok if meat was banned.

  7. #1667
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    You are still consuming their products and supporting them.
    By pirating their products. Sure, Jan.

    You aren't really a vegan if you tell people not to eat meat but still do just because your ok if meat was banned.
    You seem to be confusing criticising people resisting investigation or consequences because of attachment to a product with telling people not to consume the product. Lol.
    Last edited by Elegiac; 2021-08-04 at 11:24 PM.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  8. #1668
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    What's the point of your post? If he is immoral for wanting a game he likes to not fail then how immoral is it to support companies where dozens of people kill themselves ?
    There's a pretty damned big difference between "I oppose anything being done to resolve these issues if it impedes my enjoyment", which is the position I was arguing against, and "I will simultaneously push for conditions to be improved while continuing to exist in society", which is what you and others are attacking me for and claiming to be "hypocrisy".


  9. #1669
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    By pirating their products. Sure, Jan.



    You seem to be confusing criticising people resisting investigation or consequences because of attachment to a product with telling people not to consume the product. Lol.
    Are you dense? Clearly you are supporting a product by pirating it just not financially. And I'm sure all your stuff is pirated.

    No I'm saying if you really had morals you wouldn't support immoral products/production of products.

    You are trying to justify peoples suffering just because you would be ok if the company got shut down. "Slavery is bad. As soon as slavery is abolished I'm going to get rid of mine."


    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's a pretty damned big difference between "I oppose anything being done to resolve these issues if it impedes my enjoyment", which is the position I was arguing against, and "I will simultaneously push for conditions to be improved while continuing to exist in society", which is what you and others are attacking me for and claiming to be "hypocrisy".
    He didn't say that though.

    And consuming products made through slave labor and other horrible things isn't pushing to improve conditions its maintaining the status quo. Infact its helping reinforce it since they make more money. It's not like its water or something you are forced to consume or die.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-08-04 at 11:36 PM.

  10. #1670
    Legendary! unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Are you dense? Clearly you are supporting a product by pirating it just not financially. And I'm sure all your stuff is pirated.

    No I'm saying if you really had morals you wouldn't support immoral products.

    You are trying to justify peoples suffering just because you would be ok if the company got shut down. "Slavery is bad. As soon as slavery is abolished I'm going to get rid of mine."
    It’s like you are going out of your way to be the cartoon shown.
    Blessed are the fornicates, may we bend down to be their whores. Blessed are the rich, may our labor deliver them more.
    Blessed are the envious; bless the slothful, the wrathful, the vain. Blessed are the gluttonous, may they feast us to famine and war.
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  11. #1671
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    No I'm saying if you really had morals you wouldn't support immoral products.
    Your point being...what? Everyone has no morals therefore nobody should ever point out an injustice?

    Wow, I wonder what status quo that assertion serves. /s

    You are trying to justify peoples suffering
    Isn't your complaint literally that people are pointing out unethical business conduct? Fairly sure that's the exact opposite of "justifying people's suffering".
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  12. #1672
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    He didn't say that though.
    Post history says otherwise;
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53322912

    Literally where I started that comment chain. For that reason.

    And consuming products made through slave labor and other horrible things isn't pushing to improve conditions its maintaining the status quo. Infact its helping reinforce it since they make more money. It's not like its water or something you are forced to consume or die.
    This is "Mr. Gotcha" bad-faith bullshit, and doesn't deserve an answer. It's baiting, not discussion.


  13. #1673
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Your point being...what? Everyone has no morals therefore nobody should ever point out an injustice?

    Wow, I wonder what status quo that assertion serves. /s



    Isn't your complaint literally that people are pointing out unethical business conduct? Fairly sure that's the exact opposite of "justifying people's suffering".
    No... I was point out claiming someone is horrible for wanting their game over the people who make it while doing the same thing except a thousand times worse is hypocritical.

    My complaint isn't about pointing out unethical business conduct. Calling out someone else for not giving a shit while you are doing the exact thing with a different product is what I'm calling out. It's good to call out bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Post history says otherwise;
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53322912

    Literally where I started that comment chain. For that reason.


    This is "Mr. Gotcha" bad-faith bullshit, and doesn't deserve an answer. It's baiting, not discussion.
    Clearly you can't read because:

    "do you people actually want Blizzard as a whole to go under with all their IPs, or do you just want a reform? The vigorous fervor people have with wanting more exciting bad news headlines makes it seem like the former. And that's obviously not just for this site, but everywhere right now."
    Doesn't say anything about :
    "I oppose anything being done to resolve these issues if it impedes my enjoyment".

    So who really is the bad faith actor here? I just called out your bullshit.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-08-04 at 11:51 PM.

  14. #1674
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    No... I was point out claiming someone is horrible for wanting their game over the people who make it while doing the same thing except a thousand times worse is hypocritical.
    Sure, provided you repeatedly ignore the people do not want their movies over the people that make them but simply do not have a choice because we live in a Late Capitalist hellscape where the industry standard is pretty shit.

    You'll note that not one person here has actually called anyone out for still playing Blizzard games; what is being criticised is aforementioned complaining that said unethical conduct is a non issue because the games are more important.

    I really do think it's a function of you taking the criticism personally and kneejerking, tbh.

    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Calling out someone else for not giving a shit while you are doing the exact thing with a different product is what I'm calling out.
    Except... we do give a shit about that other product. You are literally just rehashing the Mister Gotcha argument and hoping it becomes less meme-worthy the more it's repeated. Lol.
    Every heartwarming human interest story in America is like "he raised $20,000 to keep 200 orphans from being crushed in the orphan-crushing machine" and then never asks why an orphan-crushing machine exists or why you'd need to pay to prevent it from being used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Specialka View Post
    so ? Teacher is about teaching, not education.

  15. #1675
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Clearly you can't read because:

    "do you people actually want Blizzard as a whole to go under with all their IPs, or do you just want a reform? The vigorous fervor people have with wanting more exciting bad news headlines makes it seem like the former. And that's obviously not just for this site, but everywhere right now."
    Doesn't say anything about :
    "I oppose anything being done to resolve these issues if it impedes my enjoyment".

    So who really is the bad faith actor here? I just called out your bullshit.
    Their position holds up "Blizzard going under with all their IPs" as a "bad thing" as if that were grounds to oppose seeking justice for those injured by the toxic culture at Blizzard.

    So no; you didn't call out anything. That post says pretty much what I paraphrased. That you shouldn't seek to address these kinds of issues, because it might impact on people's enjoyment.

    They even made it clearer in their later response;
    Quote Originally Posted by YUPPIE View Post
    People don't want to lose their things, so hopefully the servers and IP don't go anywhere
    You claim there's some material difference to be had between my paraphrase, and what they said. What is it? Be specific. Don't just hand-wave and claim they're totes different, because I'm looking at them, and they are not.

    Edit: Also, to make clear (again) the material difference; I have never made a case that any corporate abuses by any company are "worth it" or something I'll overlook if I can continue to get the products they make which I enjoy. I support Johannsen suing Disney, and have openly said so in other threads here. I hope the Mouse loses that case. That's completely separate from my enjoyment of the MCU films. I am in no way arguing that the company should be given a "free pass" or their conduct deemed acceptable based on my desire for their product. With Disney or any other company.

    That's the difference.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-08-05 at 12:00 AM.


  16. #1676
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Their position holds up "Blizzard going under with all their IPs" as a "bad thing" as if that were grounds to oppose seeking justice for those injured by the toxic culture at Blizzard.

    So no; you didn't call out anything. That post says pretty much what I paraphrased. That you shouldn't seek to address these kinds of issues, because it might impact on people's enjoyment.

    They even made it clearer in their later response;


    You claim there's some material difference to be had between my paraphrase, and what they said. What is it? Be specific. Don't just hand-wave and claim they're totes different, because I'm looking at them, and they are not.

    Edit: Also, to make clear (again) the material difference; I have never made a case that any corporate abuses by any company are "worth it" or something I'll overlook if I can continue to get the products they make which I enjoy. I support Johannsen suing Disney, and have openly said so in other threads here. I hope the Mouse loses that case. That's completely separate from my enjoyment of the MCU films. I am in no way arguing that the company should be given a "free pass" or their conduct deemed acceptable based on my desire for their product. With Disney or any other company.

    That's the difference.
    A paraphrase? Lol. Nowhere does either comment say he opposes anything being done. He was asking do people really want justice or just to burn everything to the ground then states" People don't want to lose their things, so hopefully the servers and IP don't go anywhere" how is that opposing anything done? The only thing that is opposing is completely dismantling the company. The material difference is they never mentioned "no justice" where you think he claims he opposes anything being done to resolve these issues if it impedes my enjoyment. Those are your words. Can you not see the difference between saying I hope the company doesn't go under and fuck every employee if it means I can play my game?

    By supporting a company and paying them you support their misdeeds. Disney isn't water you don't need it. And there is alot more shit than just Scarlet's lawsuit.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-08-05 at 12:16 AM.

  17. #1677
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    This is starting to derail, so lets get back on topic.
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  18. #1678
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    If you're defending Yuppie you really need to reevaluate your stance regardless of how much you like trying to gotcha Endus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    This is starting to derail, so lets get back on topic.
    Haha, I thought I was the king of understatement, its really circling the drain in this thread aint it?


    Anyway, closer to the topic, I don't see why people are failing to grasp that there is nuance between "blizz must die" and "blizz did nothing wrong". False dichotomies are some of the most stale and uninteresting arguments on the internet.
    /s

  19. #1679
    The Patient
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    Quote Originally Posted by TyrianFC View Post

    If it can be proven that Bobby Kotick himself knew about this in years past, but had a role in dismissing/downpaying etc, then shit could get really interesting....

    However, Mr Kotick no doubt has a team of extremely expensive lawyers who will make sure he gets as much distance + plausible deniability as he needs, to not be personally implicated or exposed legally.

    I did read the SOX document for the year 2016 and Bobby is the one signing off on it. I know that we all agree to things like EULA's without reading them, but in the courtroom we are responsible for the things we agree/certify to. Bobby is the Guild Leader in this one and his raid team is staring at a boss they haven't encountered before. With the second lawsuit, it might be the Twin Emps for the frat boy raiding team.

  20. #1680
    tbh i think it would be good for blizz to fade out and make room for new games. mmos as a genre have been strangled by WoW.

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