1. #1041
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Vowrawn View Post
    Free Speech is utterly and entirely inviolable. Unless you are a Leftist that wants to create dictatorship, then it has to go.
    Connecting "Leftism" to dictatorships, when the majority have been pretty objectively right-wing in nature, is a ridiculous statement. There is absolutely nothing about left-wing views which in any way lead towards dictatorship.

    Worse, the very concept of individual human rights is itself a left-wing concept, originating in socialist theory.

    "Hate speech" also doesn't exist, because it is entirely subjective what constitutes "hate" or not, therefore the only logical way of banning "hate speech" is to ban "speech" period.
    This is trivially disproven by the many nations with objective definitions of "hate speech" under their laws.

    "Hate speech" is as "subjective" a term as "murder" or "rape".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuujin View Post
    It doesn't apply to the company. Sure, codes of conduct relating to speech may be enforced on an individual basis, but you have no free speech. If you break a rule, you can't go 'but mah free speech' and expect to get out of trouble.
    More specifically, free speech as a right only covers the government censoring you.

    Your employer can fire you for your speech.
    Any organization you're a member of can ban you for your speech.
    People you know can disavow and shun you for your speech.
    And so on.

    Freedom of speech provides absolutely zero immunity to social consequences. Because everyone else has freedoms, too.

    Plus, it's a little off-topic, since nothing about what happened at Blizzard is in any way protected under freedom of speech.


  2. #1042
    The Insane Masark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    "Hate speech" is as "subjective" a term as "murder" or "rape".
    You do remember that Republicans are the party of "Is it really murder if they annoyed you by protesting near you and you decided to run them over with your truck?" and "Is it really rape if you find them unconscious and decide to have 'twenty minutes of action' with them?", right?

    Warning : Above post may contain snark and/or sarcasm. Try reparsing with the /s argument before replying.
    What the world has learned is that America is never more than one election away from losing its goddamned mind
    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Tayler
    Political conservatism is just atavism with extra syllables and a necktie.
    Me on Elite : Dangerous | My WoW characters

  3. #1043
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Its an odd tactic to declare that there are no legal consequences for this kind of behavior in a thread about the very real legal consequences of said behavior.
    /s

  4. #1044
    Pandaren Monk Tabrotar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Connecting "Leftism" to dictatorships, when the majority have been pretty objectively right-wing in nature, is a ridiculous statement. There is absolutely nothing about left-wing views which in any way lead towards dictatorship.

    Worse, the very concept of individual human rights is itself a left-wing concept, originating in socialist theory.



    This is trivially disproven by the many nations with objective definitions of "hate speech" under their laws.

    "Hate speech" is as "subjective" a term as "murder" or "rape".

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    More specifically, free speech as a right only covers the government censoring you.

    Your employer can fire you for your speech.
    Any organization you're a member of can ban you for your speech.
    People you know can disavow and shun you for your speech.
    And so on.

    Freedom of speech provides absolutely zero immunity to social consequences. Because everyone else has freedoms, too.

    Plus, it's a little off-topic, since nothing about what happened at Blizzard is in any way protected under freedom of speech.
    Ah right, so that´s why the people in the GDR/DDR weren´t able to say what they wanted bcs of the fear what would happen, same as in all the other ostblock countrys. And the "concept of individuality is a leftist concept" argument don´t fly when said countrys tried their best to make all their citizens nonthinking "members of the whole good collective.

    But you do you Endus, never change and and hold up your leftist membership card, maybe when the next times comes when they will have the power to do something like this again they will spare you...

  5. #1045
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabrotar View Post
    Ah right, so that´s why the people in the GDR/DDR weren´t able to say what they wanted bcs of the fear what would happen, same as in all the other ostblock countrys. And the "concept of individuality is a leftist concept" argument don´t fly when said countrys tried their best to make all their citizens nonthinking "members of the whole good collective.

    But you do you Endus, never change and and hold up your leftist membership card, maybe when the next times comes when they will have the power to do something like this again they will spare you...
    These talking points were obvious stupid propaganda points when McCarthy first crafted them waaaaay back in the '50s.

    When they were nearly immediately debunked as garbage.

    You don't even understand what left-wing and right-wing even mean. Left-wing views, fundamentally, are about the reduction of hierarchical systems in society; the elimination or reduction of caste systems, aristocracies, class divides, etc. Right-wing positions are about the establishment or protection of such hierarchical systems. That's what the terms mean. This is why fascism, for instance, is definitively right-wing in nature.

    Brings us back to the well-tread maxim; ask a socialist what issues they have with capitalism, and they'll give you a detailed list. As a capitalist what issues they have with socialism, and they'll describe capitalism to you.


  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    Name the business that doesn't give a shit about public opinion.
    We all know you can't.
    *cough* Activision/Blizzard *couch*

    Sorry, I've got a cold.

  7. #1047
    Stood in the Fire BrintoSFJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yuujin View Post
    You didn't pay them to make a game better. You paid for access to a game. Said access does not give you the right to decide that pushing out patch 9.X is more important than Blizzard addressing its internal issues and treatment of it's female employees.

    You aren't entitled to shit.

    If you want to unsubscribe, go right ahead.
    Ignorance is not a bliss. People like you is the reason why game industry has turned into such a shit show. Game companies and developers have no accountability, no sense of responsibility, so they rape, plunder and move on. Congratualtions on enabling a disgusting culture.
    Warcraft 3 Reign of Chaos was the game that brought me into gaming. I was 17 years old then, I abhorred gaming before this game. From then on, I became a fan of Warcraft and Blizzard. To see it all go down the drain like this is truly sad for me. No king rules forever but at least some of them went down in history as real badasses. I hoped Blizzard and Warcraft would be one of them but it is no longer possible.

  8. #1048
    The Insane draynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fwc577 View Post
    *cough* Activision/Blizzard *couch*

    Sorry, I've got a cold.
    You may want to see a doctor about that couch.
    /s

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by draynay View Post
    You may want to see a doctor about that couch.
    Rick James is fucking it from the afterlife as we speak. I think it's good now.

  10. #1050
    The Unstoppable Force Mayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Vowrawn View Post
    Seeing as Socialism, by definition, is totalitarianism, and thus makes all Socialists by definition the same as Nazis, it doesn't really matter.
    Oh boy, I do want to read those definitions because by definition you are wrong as fuck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrintoSFJ View Post
    Ignorance is not a bliss. People like you is the reason why game industry has turned into such a shit show. Game companies and developers have no accountability, no sense of responsibility, so they rape, plunder and move on. Congratualtions on enabling a disgusting culture.
    I don't quite understand why you think this is just a game companies issue and this disgusting culture was enabled back in the 80s.
    Quote Originally Posted by ash
    So, look um, I'm not a grief counselor, but if it's any consolation, I have had to kill and bury loved ones before. A bunch of times actually.
    Quote Originally Posted by PC2 View Post
    I never said I was knowledge-able and I wouldn't even care if I was the least knowledge-able person and the biggest dumb-ass out of all 7.8 billion people on the planet.

  11. #1051
    These disgusting freaks at Blizzard are something else I swear....

    Your ENTIRE company culture is being investigated.

    1. DO NOT EVVVEEEERRR make a post saying you didn't know nuttin. I'm looking at you METZEN. Don't you ever tell me you didn't know what was going on. Don't you type that. You sound like you are making excuses. You are a MORON for saying that. Shut UP!

    2. Do NOT go on the counterattack and admonish players for complaining about lack of content during this period. I'm looking at you Alex Klontzas. Shut the HELLLLLL up. You sound like Spiderman when he corrects Tony Stark and says he is 15 not 14. STOP CHANGING THE SUBJECT. THIS IS WHERE YOU ZIP IT.

    Klontzas should be outright fired IMMEDIATELY for that toxic post. Metzen, never let him in the building again.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  12. #1052
    Fuck 'em I say, I've seen enough twitter recaps of the devs going on bat-shit crazy "evil white people" rants on twitter, they get what they deserve

  13. #1053
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    Do NOT go on the counterattack and admonish players for complaining about lack of content during this period.
    Except players complaining about the lack of content should be admonished for having shitty priorities.

    If, during a strike, your chief concern is how you'll be impacted rather than the conditions motivating the work stoppage you are broadcasting you are more concerned with your convenience rather than the wellbeing of the people who furnish said convenience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  14. #1054
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    These disgusting freaks at Blizzard are something else I swear....

    Your ENTIRE company culture is being investigated.

    1. DO NOT EVVVEEEERRR make a post saying you didn't know nuttin. I'm looking at you METZEN. Don't you ever tell me you didn't know what was going on. Don't you type that. You sound like you are making excuses. You are a MORON for saying that. Shut UP!

    2. Do NOT go on the counterattack and admonish players for complaining about lack of content during this period. I'm looking at you Alex Klontzas. Shut the HELLLLLL up. You sound like Spiderman when he corrects Tony Stark and says he is 15 not 14. STOP CHANGING THE SUBJECT. THIS IS WHERE YOU ZIP IT.

    Klontzas should be outright fired IMMEDIATELY for that toxic post. Metzen, never let him in the building again.
    It's amazing how Ion is the only one doing the right thing - keeping his mouth shut and not digging that hole deeper. Whether he's actually involved in this shady business or not doesn't really matter - the replies from other Blizz representatives aren't improving the situation. This also includes the "no work is being done" tweet, which immediately made it to various gaming news as "Wow development completely stopped!!!" bullshit. (just like Riot killed LoL during their own issues, right? )

  15. #1055
    Quote Originally Posted by downnola View Post
    That definition doesn't describe someone who hates another person just because they have white skin or because they smell or don't shower. That definition is a description of a person who follows a very specific ideology about the superiority of one race over others.
    Firstly, actions speak louder than words. When African American women were micromanaged (more than others) at Blizzard (as the lawsuit states) it indicates that a racist (and sexist) attitude where they are seen as less effective at their work, regardless of whether it was stated in those terms or other.

    Secondly, you are plain wrong - and the definition neither included systemic or ideology, and the link between personal hygiene and superiority runs deep - there's a reason the Nazis talked about "racial hygiene".

    Similarly when a Blizzard employee believes that another employee who is member of another "race" must be sexist (or machismo) that is racist. The superiority part is somewhat complicated - historically the same racial stereotype action can go from being seen as bad to good over the years - so that racial stereotyping of a former worker at Blizzard is racist regardless of whether machismo is seen as a good or bad.

    Similarly people can view their own race/sex as inferior in some way and they are still racist/sexist.
    The "Chief People Officer" at Blizzard is a woman (not unusual for tech companies). It possible that she tried and failed to handle this, but it's also possible that she was sexist and thought that women were inferior to men in developing games.

    However, the definition of who is a racist and sexist isn't the important part here.
    Let's focus on their behavior being bad regardless, and that it needs to change.
    Last edited by Forogil; 2021-07-27 at 07:53 AM.

  16. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    I don't ascribe the snarky tone to the following: i was not the one arguing for a complete distancing from a particular identity on account of a specific event.

    I play and love video games and I won't stop being a gamer or treasurering the memories a specific game provided me with on account of Blizzard having predators in their structure.

    Elegiac has already provided enough to demonstrate that. Case being light fun, mockery or legit criticism and disagreement in respect to the issue of artistic female imagery isn't tantamount to perpetuating a system of harassment.

    Case being as the thread i posted evidences that it's unacceptable to try to manipulate the wider group of men into thinking that we're predators waiting to happen.

    People don't get to escape with proposterous propositions just because they place themselves under the banner of noble causes.
    Every so often, I get a wild hope there will be a breakthrough and someone will explain their reflexive defensiveness when hearing people describe their experiences with racism / sexual harassment. Alas, it's always fleeting.

    By the way, this is *exactly* why Elegiac's characterization of you as a person who doesn't care about others is dead on and not a misrepresentation of your views, even if you don't or can't recognize it yourself.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  17. #1057
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    By the way, this is *exactly* why Elegiac's characterization of you as a person who doesn't care about others is dead on and not a misrepresentation of your views, even if you don't or can't recognize it yourself.
    So you concede the point that unless I care in the fashion that Elegiac does, then I have no sympathy for my fellow human being.

    It's alright that you think that, much in the same way that I think the aforementioned poster is a spot on meme of a western individual so deprived of existential meaning that they've constructed an identity around the mandate of defining and gate-keeping the manner in which people must conduct themselves, because they've sought other like minded people, and so their false sense of superiority seems justified.

    As for systemic (pick your poison), one doesn't get to pick punctual events and inject them full of biased work to push an unsubstantiated theory as their immediate explanation for their occurrence. One especially doesn't get to bully people around for not subscribing to certain premises.

  18. #1058
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimbold21 View Post
    So you concede the point that unless I care in the fashion that Elegiac does, then I have no sympathy for my fellow human being.

    It's alright that you think that, much in the same way that I think the aforementioned poster is a spot on meme of a western individual so deprived of existential meaning that they've constructed an identity around the mandate of defining and gate-keeping the manner in which people must conduct themselves, because they've sought other like minded people, and so their false sense of superiority seems justified.

    As for systemic (pick your poison), one doesn't get to pick punctual events and inject them full of biased work to push an unsubstantiated theory as their immediate explanation for their occurrence. One especially doesn't get to bully people around for not subscribing to certain premises.
    I'm saying that if your response to hearing people explain how they have been victimized is some variation of #notallmen or #you'rebullyingmebytalkingaboutit, then, yes, you don't particularly give a shit about other people.
    Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect. There is nothing more or else to it, and there never has been, in any place or time. --Frank Wilhoit

  19. #1059
    Titan Grimbold21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    I'm saying that if your response to hearing people explain how they have been victimized is some variation of #notallmen or #you'rebullyingmebytalkingaboutit, then, yes, you don't particularly give a shit about other people.
    Except I haven't dismissed anything going at Blizzard. I actually only made a single remark yesterday about it. My contention around social issues is often not with the issue itself, but with a certain strain of people that hijack it to signal their virtuosity and pander their particular brand of.... solutions.

    Also, as always, those "#notallmen" appeals that you caricature, they're reactionary responses to people trying to hold a larger group accountable for the actions of the few. I mean, this is excessive repetition now, but Elegiac read a few snippets from Mulvet and decided by himself that people are complicit in a toxic system that has led to this case, because they disagree with the slippery slope that if we have sexualized imagery of female characters then eventually we'll have predators amongst the creative environments from which they spawn.

    You understand this is a fallacy right?

    I then proceed to link a thread where a poster - along with thankfully a few others - puts a theater show where they are the main actor with the role of appealing to men at large to reform themselves in light of these events.

    That's the sort of dishonesty that my cynical self has trouble with. I will absolutely take issue with anyone that tells me what I say or do isn't enough, but also that I must do something in a certain fashion. And I know this is what Elegiac does cause he's done it before. He has done it here, as he did on the riots thread where anyone that even pumped the breaks a little on the whole systemic business was dubbed racist; he tried to carry out the same fallacy scheme by referring to the whole white fragility stuff.

    This stuff is extremely transparent: "your support or condemnation means nothing if it's not up to my standards. You're part of the problem too".
    Last edited by Grimbold21; 2021-07-27 at 10:50 AM.

  20. #1060
    Leave personal grievances with other posters out of this thread.

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