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  1. #21
    The overall consensus from Classic -> WotLK was that tying our aura like buffs to totems was terrible; they required redeployment on movement and could be easily squashed. Compared to the implementation of say, a warrior shout or paladin aura, they were really awkward. Overall players of the time wanted to tie big cooldowns to totems as that kept the class identity and allowed counter play by killing them or forcing movement.

    Other than that, they were just screen clutter for bad buffs or dots.
    Last edited by Dundebuns; 2022-05-13 at 05:24 PM.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by orlfman View Post
    so i've been playing classic for awhile now and came back to retail again. but i can't help but feel empty compared to my classic / tbc shaman. of all the changes the one thing that bugs me the most is the lack of totems. i miss the totems because they were really the epitome of shaman. i miss being unique, useful, and providing so much utility to not only my self, but my group. of all the gutting they have done, the purging of totems sucks. anyone else feel the same way?
    See I hated totems and this was the key reason I never played shaman until like Cata I think. I tried...just hated totems.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Caerrona View Post
    Nah it's not engaging in the least to be a totem bot.
    Ot was never meant to be engaging. It was always meant as a class fantasy thing and WHT I rolled a shimmy when I first started in tbc. I loved the quests to get the totems which was the engaging part. They took the quests out. There was no reason to but they did it when they decided to try to make all classes the same and it sucked a lot of the big reason people played the class.

  4. #24
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    im ambiwalent to totems some were ok some not
    i really liked how anoing magma and searing were for rogues trying to capture the flag or stealthers trying to enter the tower beside that there is not much worth bringing out ;P

    "Hope for the best and prepare for the worst"

  5. #25
    I loved the crazy old poison/disease dispelling totem , so god damn annoying in battlegrounds.
    Just place it somewhere out of sight and it keeps removing DK/rogue stuff from nearby allies.

    Also felt god damn great to drop that phat fire/whatever resistance totem and see your party suddenly surviving great vs elites that were nuking them with spells a few moments ago.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exkrementor View Post
    Good utility totems are interesting. Stun totem, tremor, spirit link.

    Buff totems suck dick. Wasting 4 GCDs every time you move 2 meters fucking sucks. Even when it only was 1 GCD in wrath or with the new useless totems in Legion and BFA it still sucked. Buff totems are just buffs with extra steps.
    YUP, I played enhance shaman from November 2004-Feb 2015 and always hated the goddamn buff totem mechanics

    Least it got more playable in wrath and peaked in Cata (near the end) and MoP!
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  7. #27
    Honestly the old totems have always been annoying to me.

    Move, place, try to do anything, move again.. passive stuff all the way.

    While in retail they feel more like normal abilities they are more versatile and engaging imho.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Rend Blackhand View Post
    It sucks now.

    It's the same basically, it grants extrta auto attacks but auto attacks and 'white damage' isn't an important part of the game anymore like it was in Classic/TBC
    ?!?!?! auto attacks are sometimes in your top 3 of dps. Did you even play retail recently?

  9. #29
    Totems are crappy and the ones still in service are still crappy.
    Last edited by Schmilblick; 2022-12-29 at 01:13 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Rend Blackhand View Post
    It sucks now.

    It's the same basically, it grants extrta auto attacks but auto attacks and 'white damage' isn't an important part of the game anymore like it was in Classic/TBC
    Uh, what? This is provably false, and there's a reason every top guild has at least one enhancement Shaman. They give a huge buff to pretty much every melee class. Auto attacks make up a large portion of ... every melee's damage profile (anywhere from 7-12% depending on the class).

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdLawXpert View Post
    Ot was never meant to be engaging. It was always meant as a class fantasy thing and WHT I rolled a shimmy when I first started in tbc. I loved the quests to get the totems which was the engaging part. They took the quests out. There was no reason to but they did it when they decided to try to make all classes the same and it sucked a lot of the big reason people played the class.
    "It was never meant to be engaging" really isn't something that should be said about a core mechanic of a class. If that's ever the case, then it should​ be changed. (and it was)

    @OP No thanks; fire and forget totems are perhaps one of the most boring, hollow mechanics to ever have existed. (Yes I feel the way about current windfury totem, too). The current iteration is better in just about every way, even moreso if you care about PvP at all... In PvE, a Rsham correctly using Earthen Wall and Cloudburst is going to have an extremely higher throughput than one who's bad at using them, or throwing them down on cd. It's a shame Ele doesn't have too much, I'll agree on that much.
    Last edited by Ryzeth; 2022-12-29 at 01:17 PM.
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ArenaDk View Post
    ?!?!?! auto attacks are sometimes in your top 3 of dps. Did you even play retail recently?
    It's not the same though. White damage just happens now, OG, maximizing white damage was a mechanic in itself. Hard to explain but I'm sure you know what I mean. Current wow white damage just occurs when you are in range, it may be a significant portion of some specs but it's not something being paid attention to.
    I'd say current wow drowns you in abilities to the point that white damage is just noise. Even if it does a lot of damage, you do that damage incidentally to being in range for your real buttons. If they removed white damage (and adjusted melee ability damage) you wouldn't notice unless you opened details.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    It's not the same though. White damage just happens now, OG, maximizing white damage was a mechanic in itself. Hard to explain but I'm sure you know what I mean. Current wow white damage just occurs when you are in range, it may be a significant portion of some specs but it's not something being paid attention to.
    I'd say current wow drowns you in abilities to the point that white damage is just noise. Even if it does a lot of damage, you do that damage incidentally to being in range for your real buttons. If they removed white damage (and adjusted melee ability damage) you wouldn't notice unless you opened details.
    Every. Single. Melee. has their whole gameplay structered around white attacks.

    -Ret has its top priority reset by auto attacks.
    -Warriors get the majority of their rage throught white attacks.
    DKs can generate runic power, not to mention Frost has to stack Razorice.
    -I will not even comment on rogues.

    Should I list more? Your "real" buttons won't even function properly without white attacks.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Cazze View Post
    Every. Single. Melee. has their whole gameplay structered around white attacks.

    -Ret has its top priority reset by auto attacks.
    -Warriors get the majority of their rage throught white attacks.
    DKs can generate runic power, not to mention Frost has to stack Razorice.
    -I will not even comment on rogues.

    Should I list more? Your "real" buttons won't even function properly without white attacks.
    I play rogue, like I said it just happens, it's passive, if the mechanic was turned into 33% on ability hit, you wouldn't notice white damage.
    Like I said, it just happens while in range, you don't pat attention to it.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    I play rogue, like I said it just happens, it's passive, if the mechanic was turned into 33% on ability hit, you wouldn't notice white damage.
    Like I said, it just happens while in range, you don't pat attention to it.
    You have to use white damage for proccs on rogues and spend resourcess to increase it. what else you want people to do ?

    go back to not using abilities until a addon tells you you auto attacked ?

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by ArenaDk View Post
    You have to use white damage for proccs on rogues and spend resourcess to increase it. what else you want people to do ?

    go back to not using abilities until a addon tells you you auto attacked ?
    Wow isn't the same as it was during the OG Era. Pretending that white damage is important seems a strange hill to die on. It does still have gameplay implications, but that could be rolled into something else and you would never notice. It wouldn't be the same as removing stormstrike for example as it's something you interact with.
    This isn't to say that the old ways of watching a swing timer and not using abilities until after a swing so you wouldn't reset your melee cast is better. But that is an interaction, it's something we tracked and we're aware of, because of game pace it was significant.
    Now if I tell a person white damage is their highest damage ability, they don't believe me, until you open details and show them. But it ultimately means nothing, you can't interact with it, there are no wst tricks to increase it, just happens.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Wow isn't the same as it was during the OG Era. Pretending that white damage is important seems a strange hill to die on. It does still have gameplay implications, but that could be rolled into something else and you would never notice. It wouldn't be the same as removing stormstrike for example as it's something you interact with.
    This isn't to say that the old ways of watching a swing timer and not using abilities until after a swing so you wouldn't reset your melee cast is better. But that is an interaction, it's something we tracked and we're aware of, because of game pace it was significant.
    Now if I tell a person white damage is their highest damage ability, they don't believe me, until you open details and show them. But it ultimately means nothing, you can't interact with it, there are no wst tricks to increase it, just happens.
    Again there are lots of tricks for white damage, rogue alone is really dependant on it. You interact in it in many ways, from boosting its speed, using its combo points for a push or trying to apply your poision with it or if you cant get the roll , force it with an ability.

    Just cause you dont do it and play suboptimal doesnt mean it isnt important for other classes. And buffing AA is interacting with it.

    But again, please provide an example how it should be done if you already rule swing timer out. You cant just complain X isnt enough without providing even any reason for it being not enough

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by ArenaDk View Post
    Again there are lots of tricks for white damage, rogue alone is really dependant on it. You interact in it in many ways, from boosting its speed, using its combo points for a push or trying to apply your poision with it or if you cant get the roll , force it with an ability.

    Just cause you dont do it and play suboptimal doesnt mean it isnt important for other classes. And buffing AA is interacting with it.

    But again, please provide an example how it should be done if you already rule swing timer out. You cant just complain X isnt enough without providing even any reason for it being not enough
    Ohh boi... No need to make ridiculous comments, we've been having a reasonable discussion.

    You mention tricks, but there aren't any, there is only slice and dice and it's just another uptime ability (I like SnD, I'm not advocating it disappearing). While weapon poison application can be done by white hits, it's still a passive %. I've been playing assassination this expansion, so I don't know if there are any passive white damage combo point talents in the tree, if I recall it was a passive for Sub, but I really don't think it's in the rogue tree. It may be though, I just dont like the loss of control of combo generation so I wouldn't pick it.

    And I'm not saying that white damage should be done another way. This game has changed too much and the only way to make white damage interactable is to just go back to OG era. Which there is classic for when we want to scratch that itch. At this point in wow's life cycle though, you could remove white damage completely and make melee damage tables look more like caster damage tables and as long as any passive granted by white damage was rolled into melee abilities, you'd never know white damage was gone. Like I mentioned, I don't want that, I actually like white damage, if not just for the OGness of it.

    I think the difference here is how we define what is important. You seem to value white damage just because it's a big part of a melee's damage table. I don't see it as important because it's something that is just happening in the background while I'm in range for the buttons that define how much damage I do.

    Look at it this way, as a hypothetical. We both play rogues, we are both terrible players and just stand and rightclick on enemies. If gear is equal, we essentially do the same damage for existing in range of a target. That's what white damage is. If we both keep SnD up we do the same damage. If we have differing talent choices for poisons, now we start doing different damage, but that isn't a white damage interaction, that's a talent/poison choice interaction. If we both only press mutilate, it doesn't matter when we press it, our white damage will essentially stay the same.

    I think that we can agree that the way we interact with white damage in retail is not the same as it was in classic. I agree white damage is important to the damage table, as in without auto attacks rolling you miss out on 1/3 of your damage. But the second I'm in range for any ability, white damage is rolling. Any background passive white damage may impart is just occurring.

  18. #38
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StillMcfuu View Post
    Wow isn't the same as it was during the OG Era. Pretending that white damage is important seems a strange hill to die on. It does still have gameplay implications, but that could be rolled into something else and you would never notice. It wouldn't be the same as removing stormstrike for example as it's something you interact with.
    This isn't to say that the old ways of watching a swing timer and not using abilities until after a swing so you wouldn't reset your melee cast is better. But that is an interaction, it's something we tracked and we're aware of, because of game pace it was significant.
    Now if I tell a person white damage is their highest damage ability, they don't believe me, until you open details and show them. But it ultimately means nothing, you can't interact with it, there are no wst tricks to increase it, just happens.
    Swtor went with no white hits having every thing tied to button presses and it feels pretty awful if you aren’t a caster or dot user.

    White hits might not be as impactful as using actual ability’s by being able to tie procs and resource gen to them is rather important to the flow of gameplay and if they went for a swtor style of every thing being tied to a button press it Would be really noticeable.
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