Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
LastLast
  1. #21
    His soul was split long before he even learned about the blade... before undeads even appeared. Read the books. He was depressed since teenage years...

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I actually have no issue with how the Lich Kings as a whole are post-Jailer introduction. The story goes at great lengths to state that all of them had autonomy in what they did. They all defied him and did their own thing, for good or ill. That's why they were failures to him. And yeah, per the end cinematic he doesn't really care about having willing goons, with his ideal end state being all of existence being extensions of him the way Anduin is just a physical conduit for him.

    The point I'm getting at is that the conclusion of the Matthias Lehner story is that Arthas maintains responsibility and must be stopped unlike the near certain outcome of the Sylvanas story.
    It's difficult to conclusively state how in control he was though. The most recent piece of lore on it was the Bolvar short story before SL that talked about right before Sylvanas attacked Bolvar, and in that it states how Bolvar is resisting, but he feels the constant pull to do the Jailer's bidding, with the defining moment in the story being that he decides to give in fully to the Jailer, giving up his ability to resist the Jailer for the ability to defeat Sylvanas.

    The short story does lend a lot of credence to the fact that the Jailer controlling people isnt a binary thing. There are gray zones where they are still in control, but is subtly influenced into doing his bidding.

    Arthas could have been doing everything by his own free will, but it seems more likely that he did the things he did because the influence of the Jailer forced him to.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  3. #23
    He didn’t until he touched the sword
    So everything he did until then is on him

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kauko View Post
    His soul was split long before he even learned about the blade... before undeads even appeared. Read the books. He was depressed since teenage years...
    You can be depressed and still have a soul lol

  4. #24
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    ...location, location!
    Posts
    13,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Said orcs were marauding across the lands raiding and killing people after trying to take over the world, Id say wanting to destroy them puts him still firmly into the good boy camp.
    And yet Uther immediately replies with: "Remember, Arthas, we are paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the orcs."

    Arthas was obsessed with vengeance. He couldn't separate his logic from his emotions and look at things clearly, and that's what led him down such a dark path. His mentor and his friend (and Medivh) both tried to stop him, and he let his emotions carry him away, instead of stopping and listening to them.

    He had the potential to be a good boy, but he was too much of a hothead for it.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by sador View Post
    Since it seems that's the direction we're going, that Frostmourne victims may have split souls.
    We have the quote
    "Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit."
    Which for me not fully justifies this split soul, but at least it's there in some way that it can scar the soul.
    So, as the first "victim" of the sword, I'd image it also true for Arthas. What do you think?
    God I hope not. Let him rot where he is.

  6. #26
    Arthas's soul was broken into at least 4 pieces we know of, before Shadowlands.
    1)Frostmourne
    2)Helm of Domination
    3) Mathias Lehner(the kid)
    4) Main body piece, which got tossed into the Maw by Uther.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    He didn’t until he touched the sword
    So everything he did until then is on him

    - - - Updated - - -


    You can be depressed and still have a soul lol
    You can depressed and still be a pile of garbage who never should have been a Paladin.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It's difficult to conclusively state how in control he was though. The most recent piece of lore on it was the Bolvar short story before SL that talked about right before Sylvanas attacked Bolvar, and in that it states how Bolvar is resisting, but he feels the constant pull to do the Jailer's bidding, with the defining moment in the story being that he decides to give in fully to the Jailer, giving up his ability to resist the Jailer for the ability to defeat Sylvanas.

    The short story does lend a lot of credence to the fact that the Jailer controlling people isnt a binary thing. There are gray zones where they are still in control, but is subtly influenced into doing his bidding.

    Arthas could have been doing everything by his own free will, but it seems more likely that he did the things he did because the influence of the Jailer forced him to.
    We don't need to guess whether the Lich Kings were doing what the Jailer wanted or not. The Jailer calls all of them failures in two major instances. One is the quest where he speaks to Bolvar and says it verbatim:
    Helm of Domination says: You were to herald my coming. Instead, you defied me!
    Helm of Domination says: A failure. Like those who came before you!
    Then in the Ner'zhul raid description:
    Intended to herald the Jailer's reign on Azeroth, the first Lich King, Ner'zhul, proved unworthy in his master's eyes. The last remnants of the fallen orc's twisted soul were encased in spiked shadowsteel, condemned to everlasting torment for his failure. All who cross his path will share in his suffering.
    What's especially interesting re: Arthas is that one of the reasons the Jailer deems Ner'zhul unworthy is because he got himself usurped, ergo, Arthas taking over as Lich King was not something the Jailer wanted:
    I opened... many doors. All led... to agony.
    He said I... failed him. A flawed herald... usurped by another.
    Add to this that in Rise of the Lich King, Arthas' final action is to 'kill' both Ner'zhul and the fragment of his soul representing his conscience (Matthias?), accepting all agency and becoming Lich King. After all the retcons, we can assume that he didn't destroy Ner'zhul so much as send him to the Maw and his other half lay around in his heart until Tirion destroyed it.

    From that point on, in Wrath it was only Arthas in the driver's seat so any argument re: his agency is moot and treated as such by the narrative, hence why Tirion destroys the heart. After all the retcons, we can assume that the Jailer also had an influence on him as he did on Bolvar. Given that Arthas didn't advance the Jailer's plan in any way in favor of trying to take over Azeroth, which, per another retcon from Chronicle he did as a twisted interpretation of a paladin's duty to defend his realm, we can assume that Arthas also rejected his orders which makes sense since Arthas was a lot more powerful than Bolvar. Hence why Arthas also didn't cut it for him. Not only was he not part of any plan by usurping Ner'zhul of his own volition, but upon evicting all other voices from the helm but the Jailer's he presumably told him to get bent so he could LARP as soon-to-be King of Azeroth.

    The story goes out of its way to emphasize the agency of the Lich Kings in what they did and how in expressing their agency they fucked over the Blue Man. The Arthas LK comes out looking a bit better as a result - no WC3 Arthas mocking his way through the kingdoms he curbstomps, but still.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2021-07-23 at 07:58 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    And yet Uther immediately replies with: "Remember, Arthas, we are paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the orcs."

    Arthas was obsessed with vengeance. He couldn't separate his logic from his emotions and look at things clearly, and that's what led him down such a dark path. His mentor and his friend (and Medivh) both tried to stop him, and he let his emotions carry him away, instead of stopping and listening to them.

    He had the potential to be a good boy, but he was too much of a hothead for it.
    Not really.
    Uther fled. That crap left Stratholm. He did nothing to help anyone but himself. Same goes for Jaina.
    The greatest paladin at the time and his knights friends left a whole city getting butchered or turned to undeath so he could get back his titles.

    And Medhiv was the most retarded guy ever. Even freaking archimage Antonidas didn't gave a shit about him and his warnings. So saying to the prince of Lordaeron "don't fight to protect your people, and leave your land. Dude trust me, I'm a crow" was dumb as fuck.

  10. #30
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    ...location, location!
    Posts
    13,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Not really.
    Uther fled. That crap left Stratholm. He did nothing to help anyone but himself. Same goes for Jaina.
    The greatest paladin at the time and his knights friends left a whole city getting butchered or turned to undeath so he could get back his titles.

    And Medhiv was the most retarded guy ever. Even freaking archimage Antonidas didn't gave a shit about him and his warnings. So saying to the prince of Lordaeron "don't fight to protect your people, and leave your land. Dude trust me, I'm a crow" was dumb as fuck.
    Uther didn't flee, he was ordered to leave. If he had stayed, Arthas very well could've attacked him. It wasn't about getting back his titles. Jaina saw she couldn't stop him and couldn't stand by and watch him slaughter men, women, and children, so she left.

    Also, Medivh never said anything about not fighting to protect people, he wanted all humans to flee Lordaeron. As in, have Arthas rally all the fleets, ships, and caravans and get out. Medivh was trying to rally all the potential fighters to a single location (Kalimdor) so that they would have the best chance at survival.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by sador View Post
    Since it seems that's the direction we're going, that Frostmourne victims may have split souls.
    We have the quote
    "Whomsoever takes up this blade shall wield power eternal. Just as the blade rends flesh, so must power scar the spirit."
    Which for me not fully justifies this split soul, but at least it's there in some way that it can scar the soul.
    So, as the first "victim" of the sword, I'd image it also true for Arthas. What do you think?
    well i made a thread a while ago theorizing that when Arthas took Frostmourne his soul was split in two, the good half ended inside frostmourne and his bad half remained in the body calling the shots and would subsequently take control of the helm and the lich king powers from Nerzhul

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Arthas's soul was broken into at least 4 pieces we know of, before Shadowlands.
    1)Frostmourne
    2)Helm of Domination
    3) Mathias Lehner(the kid)
    4) Main body piece, which got tossed into the Maw by Uther.
    i think the mathias Lehner part was just a fake made by the old gods and i think that the fragment you call "mainn body piece" is the same fragment that was inside Frostmourne, remember that when the lich king was defeated, frostmourne was shattered and the souls released.

  12. #32
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    17,524
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    And yet Uther immediately replies with: "Remember, Arthas, we are paladins. Vengeance cannot be a part of what we must do. If we allow our passions to turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the orcs."

    Arthas was obsessed with vengeance. He couldn't separate his logic from his emotions and look at things clearly, and that's what led him down such a dark path. His mentor and his friend (and Medivh) both tried to stop him, and he let his emotions carry him away, instead of stopping and listening to them.

    He had the potential to be a good boy, but he was too much of a hothead for it.
    Uther who was also you know hunting down and butchering orcs, the fact that the veteran has a different out look but still think's they need to die doesn't make arthas wrong.

    and ya post plague trauma he becomes Obsessed with vengeance but before that he had pretty much no bad points unless we want to pretend wanting to stop ramping orcs without the experience of a veteran puts him in the wrong.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Uther didn't flee, he was ordered to leave. If he had stayed, Arthas very well could've attacked him. It wasn't about getting back his titles. Jaina saw she couldn't stop him and couldn't stand by and watch him slaughter men, women, and children, so she left.

    Also, Medivh never said anything about not fighting to protect people, he wanted all humans to flee Lordaeron. As in, have Arthas rally all the fleets, ships, and caravans and get out. Medivh was trying to rally all the potential fighters to a single location (Kalimdor) so that they would have the best chance at survival.
    Exactly Uther prefered to flee the city and let it being butchered or turned to undeath than taking any risk for his own life. Helping could have been dangerous. And because he lost his titles he had to go back the sénile king Terenas to get them back and break Arthas war effort.

    And once again Medhiv was completely dumb. And if Terenas and Antonidas themself told him to fuck off there was no way that Arthas or actually anyone with a brain would ear that weirdo. He told nothing about anything. It was just "you must leave, you'll lose, lol look I'm a crow, see you"

  14. #34
    Reforged Gone Wrong The Stormbringer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    ...location, location!
    Posts
    13,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Uther who was also you know hunting down and butchering orcs, the fact that the veteran has a different out look but still think's they need to die doesn't make arthas wrong.

    and ya post plague trauma he becomes Obsessed with vengeance but before that he had pretty much no bad points unless we want to pretend wanting to stop ramping orcs without the experience of a veteran puts him in the wrong.
    The issue wasn't wanting to stop rampaging Orcs, it was "dehumanizing" them. Or rather, not seeing them as people. He basically insinuated they were lowly animals, incapable of thought or feeling. You don't dehumanize your enemies (even if in this case they're not human but another intelligent species), that's how you fall down the path of justifying atrocities. He was more than willing to justify atrocities, something we saw with Stratholme. Murdering his own terrified subjects so they can be "spared the fate of undeath". Dying sick and confused would probably be preferable to being slaughtered by your own beloved Prince.

    If he'd actually taken Uther's lessons to heart, maybe he wouldn't have fallen as far as he did. We'll never know.

  15. #35
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    17,524
    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    Uther didn't flee, he was ordered to leave. If he had stayed, Arthas very well could've attacked him. It wasn't about getting back his titles. Jaina saw she couldn't stop him and couldn't stand by and watch him slaughter men, women, and children, so she left.
    Arthas didn't have the power to order him to leave uther said so him self and if arthas attacked him he'd be doing his paladinly duty in subduing him when he wasn't in the right state of mind. Uther actions come across as nothing but him fleeing for a title he could have stayed and seen if arthas was right he could have tried to help in any way he could he could have tried to stop arthas, instead he went to the king because he was worried he no longer has a title next to his name,

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by The Stormbringer View Post
    The issue wasn't wanting to stop rampaging Orcs, it was "dehumanizing" them. Or rather, not seeing them as people. He basically insinuated they were lowly animals, incapable of thought or feeling. You don't dehumanize your enemies (even if in this case they're not human but another intelligent species), that's how you fall down the path of justifying atrocities.
    You can't dehumannize something that was never human to start with. every one including uther thought they were rampaging beast at the time the only difference is that uther was a veteran who knew emotion was a determent on a battle feild while arthas was green and acting on emotion.


    He was more than willing to justify atrocities, something we saw with Stratholme. Murdering his own terrified subjects so they can be "spared the fate of undeath". Dying sick and confused would probably be preferable to being slaughtered by your own beloved Prince.
    No he wasn't not until days upon days of dealing with the plague none stop which lead to his shattered mental state. before he started dealing with the plague he had never even thought of doing any thing similar hell even when it came to orcs before they started ravaging his people he wanted them to be more or less treated well if still like animals as the kingdoms thought they were.

    If he'd actually taken Uther's lessons to heart, maybe he wouldn't have fallen as far as he did. We'll never know.
    he was put into the situation because of uther's lessons if he had just be your average prince he'd have never dealt with the plague it was him wanting to be more paladinly and caring for his subjects which lead to him investigating it in the first place.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    - - - Updated - - -


    You can be depressed and still have a soul lol
    Where did I say you dont?

  17. #37
    Warchief Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    All across Nirn.
    Posts
    2,060
    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Arthas didn't have the power to order him to leave uther said so him self and if arthas attacked him he'd be doing his paladinly duty in subduing him when he wasn't in the right state of mind. Uther actions come across as nothing but him fleeing for a title he could have stayed and seen if arthas was right he could have tried to help in any way he could he could have tried to stop arthas, instead he went to the king because he was worried he no longer has a title next to his name,
    It should be said that the The Ashbringer comic series that touches on the founding of the Scarlet Crusade does state that the Knights of the Silver Hand was disbanded by Arthas. This was omitted by Chronicle, but has not been explicitly retconned as of yet.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  18. #38
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Land of moose and goose.
    Posts
    17,524
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    It should be said that the The Ashbringer comic series that touches on the founding of the Scarlet Crusade does state that the Knights of the Silver Hand was disbanded by Arthas. This was omitted by Chronicle, but has not been explicitly retconned as of yet.
    It kinda does and it doesn’t. The knights them self say he can’t do that and uther is going to talk to the king about it while also saying there still going to take action just unofficially as to not get in trouble.

    It pretty much just tells us that no one knows rather they are actually disbanded or not and they were playing it safe.
    Last edited by Lorgar Aurelian; 2021-07-23 at 09:02 PM.
    All I ever wanted was the truth. Remember those words as you read the ones that follow. I never set out to topple my father's kingdom of lies from a sense of misplaced pride. I never wanted to bleed the species to its marrow, reaving half the galaxy clean of human life in this bitter crusade. I never desired any of this, though I know the reasons for which it must be done. But all I ever wanted was the truth.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    It should be said that the The Ashbringer comic series that touches on the founding of the Scarlet Crusade does state that the Knights of the Silver Hand was disbanded by Arthas. This was omitted by Chronicle, but has not been explicitly retconned as of yet.
    I don't know how seriously we can take the Silver Hand's disbandment in practice considering Arthas gave the order then immediately left the country and we later see them as a functional part of the Lordaeron military in the Scourge campaign and with their remnants even active and coordinating as of TFT. It seems like something that mostly happened de jure while de facto they kept operating the same.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Piamonte View Post
    well i made a thread a while ago theorizing that when Arthas took Frostmourne his soul was split in two, the good half ended inside frostmourne and his bad half remained in the body calling the shots and would subsequently take control of the helm and the lich king powers from Nerzhul

    - - - Updated - - -



    i think the mathias Lehner part was just a fake made by the old gods and i think that the fragment you call "mainn body piece" is the same fragment that was inside Frostmourne, remember that when the lich king was defeated, frostmourne was shattered and the souls released.
    Actually that soul fragment was still within the blade during Legion, when the Frost DK went to reforge it into the Blades of the Fallen Prince and it spoke to you in certain specific places throughout the xpac.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •