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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    It's not even to say that the Alliance has not done bad things, there's plenty of examples that can be pointed to as being war crimes or just general atrocities, but the Genn example just breaks down on so many levels (most notably the results of each action and the concept of individual vs. collective action).
    Of course the Alliance has done its share of bad (and Hordies have trouble distinguishing between explaining motivations and justifying). At absolute worst, you can blame Genn for attacking at a poor time given the information he had. The game shows that his hunch was correct though, that surprise surprise, the Horde's resident scheming, mind controlling, civilian torturing witch was scheming to free an evil demigod for her personal benefit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Blizzard doesn't get to decide what Genocide means.

    Their grasp of the English language is not my problem.
    They get to decide what's canon. Sorry you don't like it, feel free to continue your head canon.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post

    They get to decide what's canon. Sorry you don't like it, feel free to continue your head canon.

    None of what I said contradicted canon.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Of course the Alliance has done its share of bad (and Hordies have trouble distinguishing between explaining motivations and justifying). At absolute worst, you can blame Genn for attacking at a poor time given the information he had. The game shows that his hunch was correct though, that surprise surprise, the Horde's resident scheming, mind controlling, civilian torturing witch was scheming to free an evil demigod for her personal benefit.
    We still don't know what Helay would get out of the deal other than screwing Odyn and the Eyir thing was about securing the future of the Forsaken, by getting more Val'kyr. Greymane destroyed the Lantern with the intent of "dooming her people". There was nothing noble about it just plain old revenge and fun fact unlike mass murder(what she actually did) specifically singling out a peoplegroup and taking measures to prevent their reproduction and/or deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part is considered genocide according to internationl law. (In spirit that distinction doesn't really change much regarding the Burning of Teldrassil, especially from NE perspective and g-word is just much more emotionally manipulative, while being close enough for most people not to question it)


    I'd not be surprised, if the Stormheim event was revealed to have contributed toward her choosing Teldrassil as the opening salvo to get back at Greymane, as a secondary motive, because revenge is cyclical after all.

  4. #184
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    The two nobodies were nobodies only to the Horde.
    Again, they were nothing, just characters, every race lose then, they didn't haven were leaders or had high ranks
    Calia is pretty much as undead as every Forsaken and Derek is still an Alliance character the Horde claimed.
    she is more pristine than a lightforged draenei, "pretty much undead" is a stretch, Derek was dead since the second war, he was never "an alliance character"

    plus, you are talking like we asked or wanted those things in the horde, we have so few characters they have to burrow from the alliance, if you don't think that is a problem lol

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    None of what I said contradicted canon.
    Blizzard stated that the Burning of Teldrassil was genocide, therefore that is canon. You are attempting to state otherwise, hence head canon. It doesn't matter if you agree with their definition.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    None of what I said contradicted canon.
    You are in denial.

    But just for the benefit of doubt, if telldrasil wasn't genocide, tell us what was it then?

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by adcesamo View Post
    You are in denial.

    But just for the benefit of doubt, if telldrasil wasn't genocide, tell us what was it then?
    Get ready for some variant of "piling up bodies is ok when Horde does it."

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by adcesamo View Post
    You are in denial.

    But just for the benefit of doubt, if telldrasil wasn't genocide, tell us what was it then?
    A mass murder of civilians. But it wasn't genocide because it wasn't race motivated.

    Genocide doesn't mean murdering a lot of people.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    A mass murder of civilians. But it wasn't genocide because it wasn't race motivated.

    Genocide doesn't mean murdering a lot of people.
    I have a similar feeling on the question.

    But I think we are just facing the Kaldorei of Schrodinger.

    They can be victim of a genocide but also have enough military force to retake their land, depending on the observer.

  10. #190
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Not really. Only a few Ships arrive. Shandris never gets to be in the fight.
    The Horde manages to defeat what would be the "outpost" and venser would not be the right thing to do.
    The text calls it the Night Elf Armada thats not a few ships. The reason Shandris never got into the fight is because the Horde azerite weapons kept them from landing.

  11. #191
    It doesn't matter anyway because the Horde will never get any proper retaliation or punishement for its crimes, even the slightest war indemnities or reparations, and that Tyrande and the other Night Elves leaders will be struck by Anduin syndrome, sadly.

  12. #192
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    I have a similar feeling on the question.

    But I think we are just facing the Kaldorei of Schrodinger.

    They can be victim of a genocide but also have enough military force to retake their land, depending on the observer.

    "night elves are almost extinct!"

    "night elves are strong and populous enough to attack the horde back, take their lands and even deny horde passage!"

  13. #193
    I am Murloc! Maxrokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Oh, they can come back - as slaves. Rebuilding what they destroyed, working for the reparations they owe the night elves, you know, because
    IRL, the victors write history and they define the terms of the victory.

    And since the Alliance alledgedly won the war - again - they are to dictate the terms of what comes next.

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    I must have missed that... what great event of punishment did happen... ever? And don't mention SoO. There, only the heads of the hydra were cut off.

    OT: It may mean, that the War is still in Warcraft...
    I agree, elves should be enslaved and forced to be gladiators, livestock for consumption and maybe work in simple jobs as they seem to be less intelligent than a murloc
    Quote Originally Posted by Varitok View Post
    No, she is my waifu. Stop posting and delete this thread immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    Voted Baine because... Well, Baine. Total nonsensical character, looks like World War II Italy, nobody really understands what role he's supposed to fill, not even himself

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    I have a similar feeling on the question.

    But I think we are just facing the Kaldorei of Schrodinger.

    They can be victim of a genocide but also have enough military force to retake their land, depending on the observer.
    Genocide dosent have to be race motivated, and if you try and dig deeper into the War of Thorns then it WAS race motivated.

    Since Sylvanas built her war narrative on a false assumption that night elves would NEVER have a better relationship with the horde, not in a thousand years because their distrust is not based on political or economical or even religious motives but on some “racial archetype”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post

    "night elves are almost extinct!"

    "night elves are strong and populous enough to attack the horde back, take their lands and even deny horde passage!"
    Their civilians are almost extinct. Their army however is intact.

    Also your snark still comes out as dull and bitter as always.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Also your snark still comes out as dull and bitter as always.
    I think you just make it funny and easy to tease you.

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    I think you just make it funny and easy to tease you.
    I dont really care if others try and “tease” me.

    As long as they keep posting retarded crap i will post counter to it.

    They can go at it as long as they please, they just reinforce the idea that horde fans are bitter, spiteful pricks who only play WoW to suck on that schadenfreude from being “better” then Alliance via writers fiat.

    Essentially by being jerks they make themselves look worse and worse with every post. Kinda ironic that they dont understand that.

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    It doesn't matter anyway because the Horde will never get any proper retaliation or punishement for its crimes, even the slightest war indemnities or reparations, and that Tyrande and the other Night Elves leaders will be struck by Anduin syndrome, sadly.
    Yeah. Also, I think that in this particular case, you don't make peace because you think you're able to enforce your conditions or get reparations. You make peace in order to stop the war.

    The need for resources was what motivated the Horde to go to war (still, they find plenty of that in order to make those wars, lol). So trying to impair the Horde with taxation of their resources, or invasion of their ways of life (who are very warlike, indeed) is just giving them a reason to unite against you.

    I actually thought of the way things would go if the Alliance absolutely stomped the Horde and was able to make them sign a treaty "Verdun style", and then would go all imperialist and colonialist on them. Because that's the kind of shit the humans did, beating a dead horse.

    But hey, Alliance only won wars against a divided Horde, after all. Pretty sure they can't force them to do anything and they know how worthless this effort would be.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Yeah. Also, I think that in this particular case, you don't make peace because you think you're able to enforce your conditions or get reparations. You make peace in order to stop the war.

    The need for resources was what motivated the Horde to go to war (still, they find plenty of that in order to make those wars, lol). So trying to impair the Horde with taxation of their resources, or invasion of their ways of life (who are very warlike, indeed) is just giving them a reason to unite against you.

    I actually thought of the way things would go if the Alliance absolutely stomped the Horde and was able to make them sign a treaty "Verdun style", and then would go all imperialist and colonialist on them. Because that's the kind of shit the humans did, beating a dead horse.

    But hey, Alliance only won wars against a divided Horde, after all. Pretty sure they can't force them to do anything and they know how worthless this effort would be.
    Last war was not economically motivated. It was waged under an absolutely moronic notion that “Alliance might attack us first in next 50 years”.

    Resources or land were secondary or even tertiary concerns.

    Besides, what does that matter? Stopping war now just allows Horde to regroup and wipe out more Alliance nations next time in another surprise genocide.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Nathreim View Post
    The text calls it the Night Elf Armada thats not a few ships. The reason Shandris never got into the fight is because the Horde azerite weapons kept them from landing.
    Yes, but it clarifies that only the "first part" arrives.

  20. #200
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Their civilians are almost extinct. Their army however is intact.
    do you realize how you contradict yourself?

    the race was not almost extinct, yeah they lost a lot of civilians, but that is not "bing extinct" if they still have a numerous army and people.

    Also your snark still comes out as dull and bitter as always.
    it was clearly as joke for the numerous contradictions elf fans get themselves into it.

    they are either in jeopardy at the brick of extinction or they are strong enough to fight and demand something else from the enemy? bananas

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Genocide dosent have to be race motivated, and if you try and dig deeper into the War of Thorns then it WAS race motivated.
    it wasn't, she give two shits about who was dying, as long everyone die to fuel the Janitor

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