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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    do you realize how you contradict yourself?

    the race was not almost extinct, yeah they lost a lot of civilians, but that is not "bing extinct" if they still have a numerous army and people.


    it was clearly as joke for the numerous contradictions elf fans get themselves into it.

    they are either in jeopardy at the brick of extinction or they are strong enough to fight and demand something else from the enemy? bananas

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    it wasn't, she give two shits about who was dying, as long everyone die to fuel the Janitor
    It was to the Horde at large since thats what motivation she gave to Saurfang and what he “fed down the line” to the Horde troops.

    Also you forgetting how Night Elves are part of Alliance which supposed to support them. You know, France in WW2 literally ate a D in an embarrassingly short defeat and surrender and yet after the war they were amongst the Allies as if they were equals.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Last war was not economically motivated. It was waged under an absolutely moronic notion that “Alliance might attack us first in next 50 years”.

    Resources or land were secondary or even tertiary concerns.

    Besides, what does that matter? Stopping war now just allows Horde to regroup and wipe out more Alliance nations next time in another surprise genocide.
    Yeah I know the Fourth War was started for dummies reasons. I said the lack of resources is the usual Horde motive. So if you deprive them of resources, you're just more likely to trigger their war "instincts".

    But it's funny you go saying that "Alliance might attack us first in next 50 years" is moronic, while just two lines later you confidently declare that "Horde surely will throw a surprise genocide later".

    Plus the reason for Sylvanas to go batshit crazy has become "giving souls to the Jailer". But I agree with you, it was not this motive that was presented at the beginning of BFA. And knowing Blizzard, they'd surely use the Horde as plot device to start a new conflict when needed.

    Such is the curse of the Horde, we'll always be the bad guys.
    Best thing to do is reveling in it and toast marshmallows on the blaze of thousand burning innocent lives.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    I have a similar feeling on the question.

    But I think we are just facing the Kaldorei of Schrodinger.

    They can be victim of a genocide but also have enough military force to retake their land, depending on the observer.
    But it's not genocide. A genocide is fueled by hatred towards a group or race. Sylvanas burned everyone in Teldrassil, not just Night Elves.

    Thanos didn't commit genocide, either. He killed half the universe with no passion behind it, simply randomly.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Yeah. Also, I think that in this particular case, you don't make peace because you think you're able to enforce your conditions or get reparations. You make peace in order to stop the war.

    The need for resources was what motivated the Horde to go to war (still, they find plenty of that in order to make those wars, lol). So trying to impair the Horde with taxation of their resources, or invasion of their ways of life (who are very warlike, indeed) is just giving them a reason to unite against you.

    I actually thought of the way things would go if the Alliance absolutely stomped the Horde and was able to make them sign a treaty "Verdun style", and then would go all imperialist and colonialist on them. Because that's the kind of shit the humans did, beating a dead horse.

    But hey, Alliance only won wars against a divided Horde, after all. Pretty sure they can't force them to do anything and they know how worthless this effort would be.
    The Horde goes for war for ressources, and the war only end with the Alliance winning against a divided Horde or ally with Horde rebels because of plot, at this point these are just petty excuses.

    If the Horde is so poor in ressources then why are we never seeing this in the story ? Why are Orcs still able of going to war and of making ships and war machines when they are supposed to lack food, water and timber and never get any real ressource gain from their wars in Ashenvale and other NE territories ? And if they are so desperate for ressources why don't they try to get them in other places with ressources and that aren't sacred lands full of strong enemies ?

    The Orcs could have tried many other places and means to get ressources than risking war with Night Elves in Ashenvale but they persist at it, and realistically they should have started suffering from famine and shortage a long time ago with their wars only worsening things for them.

    This is mediocre fanfiction level of writing at this point.
    Last edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight; 2021-07-26 at 10:32 PM.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Yeah I know the Fourth War was started for dummies reasons. I said the lack of resources is the usual Horde motive. So if you deprive them of resources, you're just more likely to trigger their war "instincts".

    But it's funny you go saying that "Alliance might attack us first in next 50 years" is moronic, while just two lines later you confidently declare that "Horde surely will throw a surprise genocide later".

    Plus the reason for Sylvanas to go batshit crazy has become "giving souls to the Jailer". But I agree with you, it was not this motive that was presented at the beginning of BFA. And knowing Blizzard, they'd surely use the Horde as plot device to start a new conflict when needed.

    Such is the curse of the Horde, we'll always be the bad guys.
    Best thing to do is reveling in it and toast marshmallows on the blaze of thousand burning innocent lives.
    Because Alliance led by Anduin had a chance of starting a total war with the Horde in 50 years on the same scale as chance of rain in the middle of a desert. While “good” Council ALMOST started Fifth War immediately after Fourth.

    One voice that decided against it was… Gazlowe. Who got peer-pressured by Thrall. So literally half of the council was for war , not some time later but NOW.

    If only actual plot and NPCs acknowledged those things you said. Because game just breaks its own neck trying to pretend that both factions are somehow equal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    But it's not genocide. A genocide is fueled by hatred towards a group or race. Sylvanas burned everyone in Teldrassil, not just Night Elves.

    Thanos didn't commit genocide, either. He killed half the universe with no passion behind it, simply randomly.
    Genocide dosent have to be based on racial hatred. It can be any kind of motive, from de-industrialisation (yes that happened once) to “taking the land and securing living space”.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    The Horde goes for war for ressources, and the war only end with the Alliance winning against a divided Horde or ally with Horde rebels because of plot, at this point these are just petty excuses.

    If the Horde is so poor in ressources then why are we never seeing this in the story ? Why are Orcs still able of going to war and of making ships and war machines without suffering famines and shortage when they are supposed to lack food, water and timber and never get any real ressource gain from their wars in Ashenvale and other NE territories ? And if they are so desperate for ressources why don't they try to get them in other places with ressources and that aren't sacred lands full of strong enemies ?

    This is mediocre fanfiction level of writing at this point.
    Btw that. “Oh noes we dont have resources, literally starvin’ here!”
    “Lets go to war with a resource rich superpower, build huge fleets, supply and arm enormous armies, spend mountains of gold on new weapons and build ridiculously large Wunderwaffe!”

    That is just absurd at this point. Horde must be bankrupt three times over and have a permanent famine going with how much they spent on wars.

  6. #206
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    It was to the Horde at large since thats what motivation she gave to Saurfang and what he “fed down the line” to the Horde troops.
    ??? there was nor ace related, it would be if sylvanas was racist and wanted to kill the night elves because they were elves, she didn't care, she want war and kill everybody to feed the janitor.

    Also you forgetting how Night Elves are part of Alliance which supposed to support them. You know, France in WW2 literally ate a D in an embarrassingly short defeat and surrender and yet after the war they were amongst the Allies as if they were equals.
    you also talk like the alliance had any more power to keep fighting.

    Put something in your head, they "won" in the matter of forcing the peace treat, because the horde was divided, with sylvanus and saurfang loyalists

    If they wanted to keep going, the divided horde would be reunited and the war would re-start with full force again, and the alliance have no might to force the horde in submission, they don't have manpower to demand compensations or others absurds you want, the horde agreed on the peace and the terms because they knew they were wrong not because they were in a bad position and would be exterminated if not.

    If the alliance keep going they would be fucked too, probably even more, the night elves alone in kalindor would be even more fucked with the rest of the alliance a continent away. Let alone Talanj, the mighty of zandalar and the trolls just waiting and wanting to be unleashed for revenge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    The Horde goes for war for ressources, and the war only end with the Alliance winning against a divided Horde or ally with Horde rebels because of plot, at this point these are just petty excuses. .
    First of all, the war was started by the alliance, not for resources, but past hateand racism.

    The conflict in ashenvale was for resources yes, but when you get the resources and a route to get then, and stop being economically depended from the enemy, why resources would be a problem again?

    The resources problem was fixed back in cata with Garrosh, the rest was more or less a running to get the upperhand in the war, the alliance and horde getting more armament and resources, one of the reasons they put their eyes on pandaria as a 'no-faction land full of resources".

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    The Horde goes for war for ressources, and the war only end with the Alliance winning against a divided Horde or ally with Horde rebels because of plot, at this point these are just petty excuses.

    If the Horde is so poor in ressources then why are we never seeing this in the story ? Why are Orcs still able of going to war and of making ships and war machines without suffering famines and shortage when they are supposed to lack food, water and timber and never get any real ressource gain from their wars in Ashenvale and other NE territories ? And if they are so desperate for ressources why don't they try to get them in other places with ressources and that aren't sacred lands full of strong enemies ?
    Yeah. That's the Horde of Schrodinger. They can both start a war for resources and sustain that war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    This is mediocre fanfiction level of writing at this point.
    Ultimately, that's my point. Blaming each other factions is pointless. They're all slaves to the plot.


    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Because Alliance led by Anduin had a chance of starting a total war with the Horde in 50 years on the same scale as chance of rain in the middle of a desert.
    Says you. But Sylvanas high on azerite had a different opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    While “good” Council ALMOST started Fifth War immediately after Fourth. One voice that decided against it was… Gazlowe. Who got peer-pressured by Thrall. So literally half of the council was for war , not some time later but NOW.
    So you see. The Horde was ready to retaliate after just being defeated. They are relentless, because war and conflict are natural to them. Peace was not about making them admit they lost, but having a chance to stop.

    I guess Talanji wanted vengeance for her father and... What were the reasons for the others ? Please do tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    If only actual plot and NPCs acknowledged those things you said. Because game just breaks its own neck trying to pretend that both factions are somehow equal.
    True, very true. But since this thread started on assumptions and speculations, I went with some of mine.
    Last edited by DatToffer; 2021-07-26 at 10:46 PM.

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Yeah. That's the Horde of Schrodinger. They can both start a war for resources and sustain that war.



    Ultimately, that's my point. Blaming each other factions is pointless. They're all slaves to the plot.




    Says you. But Sylvanas high on azerite had a different opinion.



    So you see. The Horde was ready to retaliate after just being defeated. They are relentless, because war and conflict are natural to them. Peace was not about making them admit they lost, but having a chance to stop.

    I guess Talanji wanted vengeance for her father and... What were the reasons for the others ? Please do tell.



    True, very true. But since this thread started on assumptions and speculations, I went with some of mine.
    Also the raging orc fan up there assumes way too much about horde’s “might”. Thats what happens when you suck on Blizzard coolaid for too long.

    Alliance CAN win the war. They will just end up near-dead and on their last legs and likely die to some third party threat. But horde is nowhere in “superior” position.

    At this point i may just accept it if Alliance is “in universe” acknowledged as a “good” faction and basically gets all the clout on Azeroth for peace keeping and all that. Essentially being treated as “defenders of the world” by neutral nations and organisations.

    But thats not what is happening.

    As for Council… I only remember Talanji being mad and Rokhan supporting her in that. Why others voted for war i dont recall.

    Also that shows that while Anduin was pushing another peace speech and actively went against Tyrande to “keep peace” horde was ONE GOBLIN away from stabbing them in the back.

    Which proves that Sylvanas was not just wrong, she was downright retarded.

  9. #209
    Pandaren Monk Villager720's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    What? Sira was killed by the Horde and made an undead by Sylvanas. So was Delaryn and Arthas's sister Calia and Derek Proudmoore. And which lands did the Horde lose exactly?
    I feel like you misread what I said.
    I said all those folks, like Sira and Delaryn, weren’t revered (as the quoted person claimed) because they were random NPCs introduced to just die. In contrast to Varian. Who was not killed by the Horde.

    Also I never brought up Horde territorial losses.

    Did you mean to reply to someone else?

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Also the raging orc fan up there assumes way too much about horde’s “might”. Thats what happens when you suck on Blizzard coolaid for too long.

    Alliance CAN win the war. They will just end up near-dead and on their last legs and likely die to some third party threat. But horde is nowhere in “superior” position.
    Everyone drinks the coolaid they want. You just chose yours to be salty.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    At this point i may just accept it if Alliance is “in universe” acknowledged as a “good” faction and basically gets all the clout on Azeroth for peace keeping and all that. Essentially being treated as “defenders of the world” by neutral nations and organisations.

    But thats not what is happening.
    Funny thing. I always saw Alliance as how the US see themselves in the world and the Horde as how they actually are. And the Horde being the popular faction makes me chuckle on that account.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    As for Council… I only remember Talanji being mad and Rokhan supporting her in that. Why others voted for war i dont recall.
    Kinda disappointing. Please come back to me if you get the whole info. Because I don't see why Baine and Mayla, Calia and Voss, Lor'themar and Thalyssra would vote to return to war. Unless they fear some sort of retaliation from the Alliance or just to be crippled with war debts. Which would just prove my point that trying to punish the Horde is definitely not the way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Also that shows that while Anduin was pushing another peace speech and actively went against Tyrande to “keep peace” horde was ONE GOBLIN away from stabbing them in the back.

    Which proves that Sylvanas was not just wrong, she was downright retarded.
    Don't worry. Sylvanas will get her redemption arc and save us all.

  11. #211
    Updates are cool n all. But they sure have a way to make them feel meaningless.

    We always see the night elves losing badly. Then gaining stuff back off screen and off book.

    I mean how hard is it to show night elves dominating in their endeavours? With all their pedigree in the lore?

    They have the powerful night warrior rituals
    They have global leaders in Druidism plus unrivalled emerald dream access through both Shaladrassil and Nordrassil.
    they have legendary world leaders in the arcane through the shen’dralar, Farondis and battle Mage Moonguard - the very top of the field plus they control the Well of Eternity they are now free to use, which I remind you, even without use they are filled with that power.
    Their race boasts world leading fel users via the night elf Illidari demon hunters. Who we know care for the night elf people regardless of how they were treated.
    Their wardens are the very best in their field of all the rogue/Hunter groups
    Their huntresses are renowned for what they are
    And the power of their priesthood is recorded as phenomenal, in addition to holy magic they wield arcane and void calling down stars and even the moon.

    Seriously, this race has the pedigree by lore to be the number 1 race in Azeroth and basically be unstoppable. With the only reason they aren’t dominating the world being it’s not what they are about. Defending it rather, but otherwise restoring themselves to who they use to be before they had to dedicate their lives to Legion watch and damage repair.


    Yet. The in-game show is night elves being crushed to show how powerful or mean orcses are to those poor damsels in distress, those poor treehuggers.

    So much power in the lore. And yet we have to read in a footnote that they have control back. And never see it properly in game

    No show of dominance. No utilisation

    i wanted to see druids eviscieate literally any horde meme bet who thought they knew the forest better and could out stealth or out hmguerillla.

    I wanted to see night elf huntresses humiliate so called orc, troll and even. Blood elf hunters on their home turf.
    I W anted to finally see the ingenuity and arcane power that the shen’dralar could unleash after witnessing how powerful Farondis and Moonguard were in Legion, now would have been nice to see how that power can be displayed when they are winnng and not losing. And yes against other elves too, forsaken. Even nightbirne though I still want them to be friends with Nightborne instead.

    I wanted to see Moon Priestesses and Night warriors together. Wielding arcane powers alongside martial
    Skills. The night warrior is the pinnacle of vengeance as we have seen, but the Moon Priesstess is formidable

    finally I’d love to have seen demon hunters, like shadows, just ripping apart. Forsaken, troll, goblin and belf warlocks calling demons and fel to destroy the lands even a touching moment when a warden spots a demon Hunter dealing with a warlock and smiles knowingly before the demon Hunter vanishes

    I have yet to see the night elves kick ass properly in game. And no Darkshore warfront was not enough. It only showed a part of the night elves fighting (no mage power, no DHs, no priests in action and only one warden. Sorry. Not good enough. and it also showed the horde killing them.

    I want them to show us that night elves were holding back because they understood other races weren’t the real enemy and affording a measure of protection, but were utterly pissed off after WoT

    That is what I’m waiting for.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    We always see the night elves losing badly. Then gaining stuff back off screen and off book.
    That reminds me that in the two novels. They show us again and again the Horde winning. but in the end they say that the Elves Caused losses of 8 to 1 and they silence us again and again that they fight against Rokis and Civilians.

    Besides that this is annoying for everyone because they show us a and tell us b.
    Since all Horde Pjs kill various Kaldorei like nothing else .. it means that somewhere there is a Kaldorei that kills 30 or 40 Horde to compensate.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    finally I’d love to have seen demon hunters, like shadows, just ripping apart. Forsaken, troll, goblin and belf warlocks calling demons and fel to destroy the lands even a touching moment when a warden spots a demon Hunter dealing with a warlock and smiles knowingly before the demon Hunter vanishes
    Oh so touching.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    I want them to show us that night elves were holding back because they understood other races weren’t the real enemy and affording a measure of protection, but were utterly pissed off after WoT
    Night elves got culled. You want to see all of that? It just didn't happen ever in any open conflict. The Forsaken alone were enough to withstand the might of the Kaldorei, who needed the Alliance to win Darkshore and eventually drive the Horde away from the region. And the Forsaken did not blight a speck of that land.

    What we did see from the Kaldorei is the pettiness of retreating with a pretextual cause from the lodging treaties who secured Orgrimmar resources and ultimately inhabitability.

    To be completely honest I'm kind of let down by this level of fanfiction writing coming from you.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Night elves got culled. You want to see all of that? It just didn't happen ever in any open conflict. The Forsaken alone were enough to withstand the might of the Kaldorei, who needed the Alliance to win Darkshore and eventually drive the Horde away from the region. And the Forsaken did not blight a speck of that land.

    What we did see from the Kaldorei is the pettiness of retreating with a pretextual cause from the lodging treaties who secured Orgrimmar resources and ultimately inhabitability.

    To be completely honest I'm kind of let down by this level of fanfiction writing coming from you.
    I think what he is referring to.
    It is that in all BFA we do not see the Kaldorei use 100% of their forces and they have not yet given us any decent explanation for that. (As in thousands of other things).

    I mean the writing is already a "fanfic" but it would be good if at least they finish making it 100% "fanfic" instead of these half "fanfic".


    PS: Without going further they tell us that the Night War can destroy the whole world or ancient gods. Explain why in Tyrande's case he has trouble killing Nathanos and I don't even try to use him against Sylvanas or Azhara in the entire BFA.

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I think what he is referring to.
    It is that in all BFA we do not see the Kaldorei use 100% of their forces and they have not yet given us any decent explanation for that. (As in thousands of other things).
    We do have an explanation for that. The Kaldorei underwent a genocide, if the reports of the burning of Teldrassil are correct. Most of the people died in flames, it could be reasonably hard for a full force to come out of literal ashes.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    We do have an explanation for that. The Kaldorei underwent a genocide, if the reports of the burning of Teldrassil are correct. Most of the people died in flames, it could be reasonably hard for a full force to come out of literal ashes.
    Did you miss the part that the Army or was there during the acedio? They killed the civilians, not the army.
    But again before that we still have things forced to make Tyrande not here. We have no idea about Maiev. Hijal don't move. Back there are only civilians and Rokis. (Chimeras are suddenly resurrected in the second fight.)

    But assuming you are right other than that there are no consequences of that. If they really did such a great genocide, the idea of peace would not even have to be on the table.

    So it is already a writing "Fanfic" of I do to and forget me. What he asks is that you at least give him some "correctness" of "I don't fight because I am much superior" since he is no longer fighting he puts a reason.

  17. #217
    The Night Elves are in no position to start waging conflicts with the Horde or start marching to places like Silvermoon or Suramar, saying "we want it."

    They've got recover and stay at Hyjal. Waging war on the Blood Elves, Nightborne, Orcs and the other races of the Horde is purely just idiotic.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Oh so touching.



    Night elves got culled. You want to see all of that? It just didn't happen ever in any open conflict. The Forsaken alone were enough to withstand the might of the Kaldorei, who needed the Alliance to win Darkshore and eventually drive the Horde away from the region. And the Forsaken did not blight a speck of that land.

    What we did see from the Kaldorei is the pettiness of retreating with a pretextual cause from the lodging treaties who secured Orgrimmar resources and ultimately inhabitability.

    To be completely honest I'm kind of let down by this level of fanfiction writing coming from you.
    Ah you mis understand me, I want them to demonstrate through the night elf re-conquest of their lands, that the reason the elves were so beaten back in previous war campaigns like in Cata and when the WoT kicked off (before the horde burned Teldrassil), was because they were holding back a little, This is a race that is benevolent at heart, and has known true threats like both the Legion and the void lords, - they probably had a small measure of mis-guided "younger races), not fully going all out against them

    The way you show this is simple, as you show the night elves kicking ass, you thrown in some dialogue pretty much says something similar, e.g. like they often didn't try to kill but deter, and block or incapacitate because they didn't really view them as evil they were accustomed to fighting. something along those lines, to partly explain the differernce they would be showing now - where the elves are pissed off and now using their powers against normal races who've now gone too far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The Night Elves are in no position to start waging conflicts with the Horde or start marching to places like Silvermoon or Suramar, saying "we want it."

    They've got recover and stay at Hyjal. Waging war on the Blood Elves, Nightborne, Orcs and the other races of the Horde is purely just idiotic.
    That's not what is been said here at all.

    Night elves don't view the world to be conqureed, even if they have the power to do so. This is one of thier balnacing factors.. anyway i was only talking about sohwing them take back their lands. Not going on a conquering spree.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    The Night Elves are in no position to start waging conflicts with the Horde or start marching to places like Silvermoon or Suramar, saying "we want it."

    They've got recover and stay at Hyjal. Waging war on the Blood Elves, Nightborne, Orcs and the other races of the Horde is purely just idiotic.
    Nor can they not.
    The Horde is just waiting for the next moment to attack them again. You have every opportunity to weaken the Horde.

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    - - - Updated - - -
    That's not what is been said here at all.

    Night elves don't view the world to be conqureed, even if they have the power to do so. This is one of thier balnacing factors.. anyway i was only talking about sohwing them take back their lands. Not going on a conquering spree.
    But they are taking back their lands - part of that evidence is within the new exploring Kalimdor, where everything from Ashenvale and upwards (barring Azshara), will not be shown.

    Now they won't be having these epic looking Night Elf Death Knights, Demon Hunters, Mages and Arc-Priestesses coming down, singing the original Pokemon intro song "We're gonna be the very best, like noone ever was..!" unless, they do that for every race in a racial/class pride expansion (which does have my favor.)

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