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  1. #221
    What is even night elf land right now? Just darkshore? The last update on Ashenvale was the horde taking it before BFA.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    That reminds me that in the two novels. They show us again and again the Horde winning. but in the end they say that the Elves Caused losses of 8 to 1 and they silence us again and again that they fight against Rokis and Civilians.

    Besides that this is annoying for everyone because they show us a and tell us b.
    Since all Horde Pjs kill various Kaldorei like nothing else .. it means that somewhere there is a Kaldorei that kills 30 or 40 Horde to compensate.
    It's obvious that the Night Elves are dumbed down and nerfed each time the Horde attacks such as their knowledge of their lands, superior vision, hearing, agility and stealth being omitted or nerfed, Malfurion and most other druids being absent (under the ridiculously bad excuse of them being neutral) or Tyrande is nerfed and of other characters such as Maiev or Jarod Shadowsong being not here to help their people either.

    And that's not counting how most of their natural allies are generally absent, except for Darkshore warfront, and how the Draenei and Worgens were conveniently absent when they were attacked during BFA.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    But they are taking back their lands - part of that evidence is within the new exploring Kalimdor, where everything from Ashenvale and upwards (barring Azshara), will not be shown.

    Now they won't be having these epic looking Night Elf Death Knights, Demon Hunters, Mages and Arc-Priestesses coming down, singing the original Pokemon intro song "We're gonna be the very best, like noone ever was..!" unless, they do that for every race in a racial/class pride expansion (which does have my favor.)
    Well that's the problem I am referring to, not showing how they take back these areas.


    Would be cool if they show them take back Azshara zone though, that would be nice, Azshara and Naz'jatar, and show them consolidating control over Azsuna, Val'sharah, and half of Suramar (zone minus city) as well as the broken shore.

    I would like that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Every Pwny View Post
    What is even night elf land right now? Just darkshore? The last update on Ashenvale was the horde taking it before BFA.
    I presume it's the ones the horde took contrl of in WoT.. but technically it shoudl be Ferals through to Azshara zone.

    Wiht the orcs having Durotar, , Barrens north and south, Mulgore, 1K needles, Dustswallow marsh now and likely Tanaris and un'goro to make up for losing the others.


    But it is vague enough to mean this could literally only be darkshore, or everything related to night elves.. i.e. Feralas to Azshara, naz'jatar, Azsuna, Val'sharah, Suramar zone (minus city which remains nightborne), Broken shore..
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  4. #224
    Will Horde "champions" who saved Hyjal multiple times be allowed on Hyjal? No just players, but the various Horde defenders of Hyjal from Cata?

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    It's obvious that the Night Elves are dumbed down and nerfed each time the Horde attacks such as their knowledge of their lands, superior vision, hearing, agility and stealth being omitted or nerfed, Malfurion and most other druids being absent (under the ridiculously bad excuse of them being neutral) or Tyrande is nerfed and of other characters such as Maiev or Jarod Shadowsong being not here to help their people either.

    And that's not counting how most of their natural allies are generally absent, except for Darkshore warfront, and how the Draenei and Worgens were conveniently absent when they were attacked during BFA.
    It would be good if they write it at least once (or 3 which would be fair) to tell us off camera how they lost X things and show us how suddenly 1 elf charges 30 invazores to recover that thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martymark View Post
    Will Horde "champions" who saved Hyjal multiple times be allowed on Hyjal? No just players, but the various Horde defenders of Hyjal from Cata?
    I say no. The Kaldorei will have much more strength if they stop helping the world and start helping only themselves.
    The PC can help if he wants because he helped the Kaldorei Leaders or something like that.
    Then Horde and Alliance out.

  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post


    Why the horde and alliance getting their ass kicked in broken shore is the reason the conflict re-start?

    From everything we know, the "war" never stop at SoO, they end in an cease-fire, and Gen actions are definitely considered as breaking the cease-fire and re-ignite the war, but they ignored that plot to make the horde the villains with a shit ass excuse

    I mean, Sylvanas herself said that in the book, she used Gen attack as excuse that the alliance was never going to stop attacking then, so they had to attack first.
    Because if you played the alliance side of quests. All they say is: why did she run away, why did she not help us etc etc etc.
    She betrayed the peace/cease fire by running out on the alliance and not even signalling retreat or something like that. And with what we know now. It was the whole plan. So.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    JA



    What I am saying is that if the Alliance did that suddenly and without provocation then the Alliance would be bad for no reason. It is not fixing the plot error. It just moves it to another place.

    Although the idea of a plan from Sylvanas would have liked me more.
    JA?


    Then again you are not reading correctly what i am writing. I say, it could also be planted evidence by sylvannas. Or make several quets/questlines that escalte stuff. You are again filling in blanks that are not there.
    I am not saying 1 or 3 or 1000 quests is the best way. I am not putting a number or how big or bad the quests/lore need to be. I am saying there is a lore gap that could have been filled there with ease.

    And seeing that you like the sylvannas part....it was also a option. Would have fitted more the current story. And gave small hints she might be not that nice.

  7. #227
    Elune cried and Tyrande chose renewal. Malfurion will give her a hug and there'll be no conflict because of two minutes of conversation between two deities, with one being largely irrelevant to the living - a complete unknown untill Shadowlands - and the other having failed its followers.

  8. #228
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    Because if you played the alliance side of quests. All they say is: why did she run away, why did she not help us etc etc etc.
    that is not enough to mean it break the cease-fire, as inf act it didn't.
    She betrayed the peace/cease fire by running out on the alliance and not even signalling retreat or something like that. And with what we know now. It was the whole plan. So.....
    That is completly a headcanon, there is no "betraying the cease-fire

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    that is not enough to mean it break the cease-fire, as inf act it didn't.
    Nope. I am not saying it is. My god...what do you people think in your head cannon. I am saying its what motived their thoughts. ITS what they say INGAME: she left us to die at the broken shore.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HerN...l=MMO-Champion

    ......from this bloody site!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    That is completly a headcanon, there is no "betraying the cease-fire
    And...dude....you are snipping apart 2 different comments that where meant as one. Thats creating a whole narative about something that is not there.

    In lore genn says its a betrayle that caused varians death. They ran away in their eyes. Running away and letting you die during a cease fire is pretty much bye bye cease fire.

  10. #230
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    Nope. I am not saying it is. My god...what do you people think in your head cannon. I am saying its what motived their thoughts. ITS what they say INGAME: she left us to die at the broken shore.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HerN...l=MMO-Champion

    ......from this bloody site!!
    they thinking she let then to die was not the break of cease-fire, period, they even find out later it was not the case.

    bail out is a completely different thing than actively attack the opposite faction, witch Gen did.

    Running away and letting you die during a cease fire is pretty much bye bye cease fire.
    Nope, that is not how it works.

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    The Horde goes for war for ressources, and the war only end with the Alliance winning against a divided Horde or ally with Horde rebels because of plot, at this point these are just petty excuses.

    If the Horde is so poor in ressources then why are we never seeing this in the story ? Why are Orcs still able of going to war and of making ships and war machines when they are supposed to lack food, water and timber and never get any real ressource gain from their wars in Ashenvale and other NE territories ? And if they are so desperate for ressources why don't they try to get them in other places with ressources and that aren't sacred lands full of strong enemies ?

    The Orcs could have tried many other places and means to get ressources than risking war with Night Elves in Ashenvale but they persist at it, and realistically they should have started suffering from famine and shortage a long time ago with their wars only worsening things for them.

    This is mediocre fanfiction level of writing at this point.
    To say nothing of the fact that intra-faction trade should be a thing given the various means of transportation in-universe (the BEs and Forsaken hold lands with a lot of lumber and surely no small amount of game, plus the Horde has a colony in a jungle with direct access to Orgrimmar), and that when the Horde does conquer Darkshore they swiftly proceed to turn it into a blighted wasteland. Back in Cataclysm it seemed also that the Orcs used most of our lumber and iron just adding more spikes to Orgrimmar.

    It's really hard to take the assertion that the Horde lacks resources so much seriously considering the game neither reflects it nor grants the matter any sort of importance and the realities of supply and logistics are otherwise completely ignored in the story.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  12. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they thinking she let then to die was not the break of cease-fire, period, they even find out later it was not the case.

    bail out is a completely different thing than actively attack the opposite faction, witch Gen did.



    Nope, that is not how it works.
    What you think or i think outside the game is not what we are talking about.

    In that moment in legion ( the moment you thought did not exist and i made up). They thought they betrayed her. AKA the truce the had. You can fantasize all you want. I just linked you proof that as far as the alliance stance was that they betrayed them.

    Also does not matter how you think it works. Its how blizzard wrote it.

    They had a cease fire. This betrayel like Genn calls it. Is seen ingame as the horde, being the horde ( again ingame). We know it was just fleeing after the hordes losses ( atleast back then before sylvannas jailor retcon).

    But again its clearly shown in the video they think they betrayed them.


    But if you need more evidence:

    end text of the broken shore quest:
    Ah, <name>, you're up! I'm relieved you made it out of that bloodbath alive. We lost so many good women and men down there...

    <Genn Greymane clenches his teeth.>

    Damn the Horde for serving us up to the Legion!

    Jaina is also pissed after this and leaves after the follow up quest fallen lion.

    Was it the first cannon fire? Nope.

    But it was the betrayel that caused Genn to go after sylvannas in stormheim. AKA the cause of the situation you think started the war.
    If the first situation did not happen, stormheim would not have happend most likely. ( i know up for debate). But if they where still at the broken shore or won the battle they ( alliance and main horde armies) would have been busy doing otherstuff. Like dealing with legion that remained there.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    What you think or i think outside the game is not what we are talking about.

    In that moment in legion ( the moment you thought did not exist and i made up). They thought they betrayed her. AKA the truce the had. You can fantasize all you want. I just linked you proof that as far as the alliance stance was that they betrayed them.

    Also does not matter how you think it works. Its how blizzard wrote it.

    They had a cease fire. This betrayel like Genn calls it. Is seen ingame as the horde, being the horde ( again ingame). We know it was just fleeing after the hordes losses ( atleast back then before sylvannas jailor retcon).

    But again its clearly shown in the video they think they betrayed them.


    But if you need more evidence:

    end text of the broken shore quest:



    Jaina is also pissed after this and leaves after the follow up quest fallen lion.

    Was it the first cannon fire? Nope.

    But it was the betrayel that caused Genn to go after sylvannas in stormheim. AKA the cause of the situation you think started the war.
    If the first situation did not happen, stormheim would not have happend most likely. ( i know up for debate). But if they where still at the broken shore or won the battle they ( alliance and main horde armies) would have been busy doing otherstuff. Like dealing with legion that remained there.
    They were explicitely told by Anduin not to attack the Horde, but did so anyway. (And later they found out the whole Broken Shore thing was a trap because Shaw fucked up and got replaced by a Dreadlord)

    Also Greymane explicitely told Sylvanas that he seeks to doom her people, in revenge for attacking Gilneas.

  14. #234
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    What you think or i think outside the game is not what we are talking about.
    and what you think about the conflcts is entirely your headcanon.

    That was not the end of case fire period.

    They had a cease fire. This betrayel like Genn calls it. Is seen ingame as the horde, being the horde ( again ingame). We know it was just fleeing after the hordes losses ( atleast back then before sylvannas jailor retcon).

    But again its clearly shown in the video they think they betrayed them.


    But if you need more evidence:

    end text of the broken shore quest:

    Ah yes, Gen, who want revenge for his son since cata, and atacked the warchief sure is not biased against it and evenw ent against Anduin orders, sure

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    They were explicitely told by Anduin not to attack the Horde, but did so anyway. (And later they found out the whole Broken Shore thing was a trap because Shaw fucked up and got replaced by a Dreadlord)

    Also Greymane explicitely told Sylvanas that he seeks to doom her people, in revenge for attacking Gilneas.
    yes? But in the eyes of the alliance is still the betrayl that happend. Anduin might have said things. But for many races/heroes this was the starting shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    and what you think about the conflcts is entirely your headcanon.

    That was not the end of case fire period.



    Ah yes, Gen, who want revenge for his son since cata, and atacked the warchief sure is not biased against it and evenw ent against Anduin orders, sure
    It was the end of it. After that jaina left, genn was set on revenge etc etc.
    I linked you ingame proof of it. And you still think its head cannon. They thought they betrayed them. So where is your proof? Oohhh no where.
    Anduin set do not attack. But at this time Jaina left, Genn was mad and angry. So i would say if they where not betrayed they would not have left. And genn would have not gone to stormheim.

    But lets turn it around. If we use your version of headcannon. We now know sylvannas has been working with the jailor since WotLK. So we did not start a war with the horde. But with a puppet state run by a big bad ( the jailor).....soo....

    But we are getting off topic so ill try to get us back on topic. So lets agree to disagree.

    Topic is: what does it spell for the night elf lands to be off topic in the books. My guess: they have not written stuff for it. Or nothing is solid yet. So they rather not put anything on paper.

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    It was the end of it. After that jaina left, genn was set on revenge etc etc.
    I linked you ingame proof of it. And you still think its head cannon. They thought they betrayed them. So where is your proof? Oohhh no where.
    Anduin set do not attack. But at this time Jaina left, Genn was mad and angry. So i would say if they where not betrayed they would not have left. And genn would have not gone to stormheim.
    Anduin specifically said Gen to not attack the horde/sylvanas, showing clearly the cease fire didn't end in broken shore

    "they thinking horde betrayed alliance" was not the end of cease-fire. Because the horde idd not attacked the alliance, period.

    We now know sylvannas has been working with the jailor since WotLK. So we did not start a war with the horde. But with a puppet state run by a big bad ( the jailor).....soo....
    Sorry buddy, "post mortem" evidence does not work here

  17. #237
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    I'd like to see the Night Elves claiming everything along the western coastline. Feralas, Stonetalon, Ashenvale, Darkshore, and then also Moonglade, Winterspring, Hyjal, and Felwood. Azshara is firmly in the hands of the Goblins now, but that doesn't mean the rest of it can't fall to the Night Elves. Unfortunately I doubt they have the numbers to secure that much territory anymore. Maybe just Hyjal, Wintersepring, Felwood, Darkshore, and Ashenvale.

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    yes? But in the eyes of the alliance is still the betrayl that happend. Anduin might have said things. But for many races/heroes this was the starting shot.
    Greymane has been looking for an excuse basically since his forces got their pelts dusted out of Silverpine/Gilneas and Rogers has had a track record of being more than happy to shoot first ask questions never. That doesn't change their mission was recon and they went rogue, with no reprocussions.

    As for the whole retreat thing it was spun as a betrayal mostly by the three stooges, who were obviously looking to pick a fight against the Horde long before Legion invaded. Officially the War didn't begin until the War of Thorns, but after the Broken Shore the tensions were rising significantly basically where they left off in MoP. Especially given the nature of what occured in Stormehim and Arathi, which were both very significant diplomatic fuckups worth the price of admission on their own merrit, if Blizz were interested in logical consistency.

  19. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Anduin specifically said Gen to not attack the horde/sylvanas, showing clearly the cease fire didn't end in broken shore

    "they thinking horde betrayed alliance" was not the end of cease-fire. Because the horde idd not attacked the alliance, period.



    Sorry buddy, "post mortem" evidence does not work here
    You think that a attack is needed for a cease fire to stop. news flash. Anything bad that can blamed or looks like the enemy has done it can set it off.

    And yes Anduin said that. But by this time the percieved betrayel already happend.

    And if post mortem evidence does not work? why are you using it? All the alliance knew is that the horde left them? So horde broke the cease fire. We later learn that it was because of volj'ins death and loosing the battle. But that evidence is also past the battle :P.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    Greymane has been looking for an excuse basically since his forces got their pelts dusted out of Silverpine/Gilneas and Rogers has had a track record of being more than happy to shoot first ask questions never. That doesn't change their mission was recon and they went rogue, with no reprocussions.

    As for the whole retreat thing it was spun as a betrayal mostly by the three stooges, who were obviously looking to pick a fight against the Horde long before Legion invaded. Officially the War didn't begin until the War of Thorns, but after the Broken Shore the tensions were rising significantly basically where they left off in MoP. Especially given the nature of what occured in Stormehim and Arathi, which were both very significant diplomatic fuckups worth the price of admission on their own merrit, if Blizz were interested in logical consistency.
    Yes he was looking for a reason to do it. And something that might look and sound like a betrayl is enough to do it. It being one or not asside.
    But yes the story writing from blizz caused this.

    But what caused the war. A event that broke down the upwords spiral of peace they might have had after WoD. A betral at broken shore. Before that both Jaina and Genn where fighting in the same battle as the horde. ( different places on the beach).
    But still fighting on the same side. After that , the hate was back. So what caused that hate? the thought of betrayel.

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    And if post mortem evidence does not work? why are you using it? All the alliance knew is that the horde left them? So horde broke the cease fire. We later learn that it was because of volj'ins death and loosing the battle. But that evidence is also past the battle :P.
    This betrayal thing always peeved me. You're the aliance and hear the retreat horn unable to see the situationa top the ledge, what do you do?
    A) Retreat too and walk back like the other guys
    B) Assume it's an insidious betrayal and stare in disbelief
    C) Find where Jaina fucking is and have her teleport your people out. (Ofc she is one of the Dreadlords )

    We know that by the time Anduin sent Graymane for Stormheim he already was informed by Baine of the Horde side of the story.

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