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  1. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    "Human Potential!" is what they could have had in the Alliance.

    I'm personally glad they dodged that bullet, but that's just me.
    I see what you mean and I agree they dodged a massive bullet.

  2. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    True, I had the same opinion when it happened. But considering what it brought us, the points I mentioned, I think it's things we couldn't have had if they went to the Alliance.
    It could have possibly still happened if the writing team knew how to better exploit and write the Alliance races outside of humans (and even humans aren't spared with nearly everything being centered around Anduin and Jaina while other stormwindian characters and the other kingdoms are badly used or neglected) but then again we know the quality and tendencies of current writing team.
    Last edited by Terrorthatflapsinthenight; 2021-08-14 at 03:27 PM.

  3. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    I played both and i think horde one was much, much better.
    This I simply cannot grasp, they are both so god damn shitty for different reason.

  4. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    It could have possibly still happened if the writing team knew how to better exploit and write the Alliance races outside of humans (and even humans aren't spared with nearly everything being centered around Anduin and Jaina while other stormwindian characters and the other kingdoms are badly used or neglected) but then again we know the quality of current writing team.
    Yeah although I don't know what narrative they could have brought, except for a remake of «NE reconnecting with their magic heritage» but with guys who actually look the part.

    Also I'm pretty sure that there are people who still consider Dalaran to be pretty Alliance oriented, so it's nice for the Horde to have their own city of OP mages who got out of a their bubble.

  5. #385
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Yeah although I don't know what narrative they could have brought, except for a remake of «NE reconnecting with their magic heritage» but with guys who actually look the part.

    Also I'm pretty sure that there are people who still consider Dalaran to be pretty Alliance oriented, so it's nice for the Horde to have their own city of OP mages who got out of a their bubble.
    That could have been interesting to be honnest, Highborne aren't very numerous and Suramar, along with Val'sharah, is actually an important place in Night Elf's culture and history, as well as Tyrand the Stormrage twins' birthplace. Also Nightborne could have found or reconnected with other values that they had lost too during their very long isolation, and they may incarnate what NE society could have become if they had chosen to keep focusing on arcane magic instead of reconnecting with nature and Elune after the War of the Ancients.

    Though I agree that it would have recquired a really good writer and storyline to be really exploited.

  6. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    That could have been interesting to be honnest, Highborne aren't very numerous and Suramar, along with Val'sharah, is actually an important place in Night Elf's culture and history, as well as Tyrand the Stormrage twins' birthplace. Also Nightborne could have found or reconnected with other values that they had lost too during their very long isolation, and they may incarnate what NE society could have become if they had chosen to keep focusing on arcane magic instead of reconnecting with nature and Elune after the War of the Ancients.

    Though I agree that it would have recquired a really good writer and storyline to be really exploited.
    Agreed, good writing could make a similar story feel less redundant.

  7. #387
    Speaking of Dalaran I always found it really forced how the writers keep enforcing that it's a neutral state despite the majority of its inhabitants being humans, as well as its many High Elves, dwarves and gnomes inhabitants, and how the kingdom was one of the founding and most important members of the original Alliance as well as Khadgar being one of the greatest heroes of the Alliance.

    It's just the same as Malfurion, most of the NE druids and the Kaldorei's natural allies not taking part in the defense of Kaldorei lands under the feeble excuse of neutrality.

  8. #388
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    You didn't pay much attention to her character then, she is very willing to experiment on mentally handicapped people and use them as canon fodder, sure she is preachy, but it is pretty much lip service if you look at it closely.
    She cowered from Jaina in Stormwind. And not once through the suramar camapaugn even when she recovered, did she show any serious display of power.

    The alliance have so many powerful elves, they should have given us Elisande. I much prefer the raw power over the subtle touch.

    In my eyes Thalyssra fits the alliance and we should have Tyrande and Elisande. Now they gave them power

  9. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    She cowered from Jaina in Stormwind. And not once through the suramar camapaugn even when she recovered, did she show any serious display of power.

    The alliance have so many powerful elves, they should have given us Elisande. I much prefer the raw power over the subtle touch.

    In my eyes Thalyssra fits the alliance and we should have Tyrande and Elisande. Now they gave them power
    Well something that we didn't see was Thalyssra teleporting the whole Horde army to Zandalar...I guess it isn't just Alliance, who have their characters only shine in the books and novels.

    Again, Elisande no longer makes any sense and she needs to stay dead.

  10. #390
    Quote Originally Posted by Beloren View Post
    She cowered from Jaina in Stormwind. And not once through the suramar camapaugn even when she recovered, did she show any serious display of power.
    Well of course, Jaina is one of the staple writers pet of the story, you can see it with her development being all over the place

    The alliance have so many powerful elves, they should have given us Elisande. I much prefer the raw power over the subtle touch.
    They have three, two of them are utter morons and the third one is on her way to become the next alliance "bad girl".

    In my eyes Thalyssra fits the alliance and we should have Tyrande and Elisande. Now they gave them power
    Anything fits the Alliance, it does not have any criteria whatsoever, excluding someone from membership.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Anything fits the Alliance, it does not have any criteria whatsoever, excluding someone from membership.
    Wow, not fair. The Alliance has very strict criteria for joining them.

    Both males and females of the race need to be fuckable or at least cuddlable.

  12. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Wow, not fair. The Alliance has very strict criteria for joining them.

    Both males and females of the race need to be fuckable or at least cuddlable.
    I wouldn't call mechagnomes or jinyus or ankoans exactly fuckable or cuddable.

  13. #393
    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    I wouldn't call mechagnomes or jinyus or ankoans exactly fuckable or cuddable.
    Mechagnomes have a pass thanks to the gnomes. As for the ankoians and jinyus, I guess they were a one time thing. At least the Horde invited the hozens to their party in Zuldazar !

  14. #394
    Herald of the Titans Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Yes and guess what happens to those who stay neutral?
    to be fair the Argent Lordaeronians were mostly sitting in Hearthglen and Tyr's Hand area and were never attacked even once by the Forsaken - and that' the Forsaken

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    Supporting an insane leader after swearing to learn their lessons and not to do so again after Azshara and Elisande.
    I wouldn't put Nightborne guilty by association; they weren't part of the War of the Thorns and I don't see them do anything like Brennadam or the like and they were also eventually against Sylvanas at the end

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DatToffer View Post
    Why is it so hard for NE players to see that Tyrande being a bitch to Thalysra was just a plot device to push the nightborne into the Horde because they wanted to elaborate on the topic of mana addiction, give the Horde more beautiful elves, have the nightborne be warlocks and ship Thalysra and Bob ?
    to be fair even without the drivel the Nightborne would still choose the Horde because they would see how the Alliance Highborne were treated and were only accepted like how the teacher forced a group of kids to accept a kid they don't want to be with; and the Blood Elves would still have more kinship with them. The blood of the covenant is still greater than the water of the womb
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged custom models that intends to fill the gaps in the Reforged campaign

  15. #395
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Sounds more like confused.com

    Whatever happens, Nightborne and Blood Elves need to stay together.
    Dont worry, lorthemar is making sure of that.
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  16. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    They've done nothing for it because they thrust Sylvanas, Anduin and Jaina down our throats.
    After them, it's Thrall, Baine and Tyrande.


    I'm a big advocate for smaller characters, with smaller stories that are relatable and the above 6 or written out of the next expansion.


    So, for Blood Elves and Nightborne, maybe have Rommath and Valtrois interact. They both carry a degree of arrogance and whilst the former is more serious, the latter is more humorous.
    Bring in Scout Captain Elsia again.
    Bring in Victorie of the Duskwatch.

    They haven't... and it's why so many of us just keep having mounting grievances against their story telling. The things that really pissed us off have not been addressed or any attempt made to bring some sort of parity of justice.


    They gave everything of the Darnassians origin story to the horde with no ot so much as peak for the Darnassians in it after that, completely ignored (and it's been 3.5 years since 7.3.5


    But it's not an isolated incident. they do this so many times, and it's not the first time they've done a great piece of work, then had some "brilliant" idea, and implemented it in a way that's just destroyed the earlier great work or rendered it pretty much rubbish or useless, if not for everyone then for one half of the community, often un-necessarily so because they couldn't be bothered to handled it properly.. because "they'd moved on"


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post


    But Night elf fans are not the only important ones in this argument.
    That is something that alliance night elf fans need to understand.
    No, they are not, but you have to understand that this is particular to them because that expansion, that zone, that city, that group is basically the rest of their oracial origin story , and their first main sub-race used like that, it would essentially be the same as giving Dazar'alor to the alliance and telling troll fans that they aren't the only important ones in the argument.


    It's not to say alliance fans have no right to enjoy having a slice of the troll pie if a section of that community really dug that thing, but you have to understand the origin lore of the the main playable group that it's fans have treasured and read about so closely in it's most famous opening novel, makes it into the game, and then the nicest thing they've ever presented for them is given to their opposite faction.


    You must understand the anger.


    As I said above, effort should clearly be made for the kaldorei to be involved positively in their city and historical lore, even if the Nightborne are to remain horde and close with the blood elves. They need to do something about this. This is what will please alliance night elf fans, they want to be part of their Suramar and their races core origin history in game in a good way.


    Blizzard need to make that happen - and if they're smart they'd do it without removing what the horde fans like. The horde fans don't want to lose the Nightborne nor do they want to lose Suramar.. I'm sure there is away both fans can be happy.


    I'm sure Nightborne can be tight with blood elves and be good with Darnassians too. I'm sure Suramar can be open to night elves, Darnassians in particular and stories of the two written, interactions, reconnections, while at the same time Nightborne being friendly with blood elves. In some cases it can bring night elves and blood elves together , in other cases it can cause problems too with nuances.


    The Nightborne story still has them very pro-kaldorei, and largely considering themselves children of the stars and the night, that is their heritage and not once are thy in denial of that, there is much that is kaldorei about them blizzard can continue to build on and connect with night elves in a good way as they find balance, they can use them to continue to show more of the arcane side of the night elves and show the Darnassian Highborne and Moonguard involved with them in a positive way.. there is also a big opportunity for the priesthood too and showing more aspects of the order of Elune via night elf and Nightborne interaction, including another visit from Tyrande but this time much friendlier and entirely based on the Goddess and NOT the alliance.


    This is where you make the connection, you connect them based on their racial connection as night elves, as Elune's children, as children of Suramar, people who gave up the Nightwell kicked addiction and embraced balance, show how the Darnassian Highborne help the Nightborne embrace and live in balance with the arcane.


    Show druids who made the Arcan'dor work , work with their kin , mainly focusing on balance druidism, where the aspect of the priesthood they reveal through these two deals a lot with the star side of the night elves they've never really delved into.


    none of this has anything to do with the alliance, but it does with the kaldorei, and because Darnassians are involved, the a alliance night elf fans will feel strongly connected - this can all happen with Nightborne still part of the horde, and still friends with Blood elves. They don't have to mention the alliance, but they should, and have Tyrande say something like "this has nothing to do with the alliance, Elune remembers all her children this is not about hatreds and keeping the fire of vengeance our young allies harbour, I've been there and seen the dark path it leads to. I am high priestess and all my people will have renewal including my beloved home city" - and she proceeds to fully open the Cathedral of Eternal Night once more with Nightborne and night elf acolytes alike." - you add this line to emphasise it's about restoring the kaldorei and Elune in the hearts of the city folk and her temples, not about horde and alliance.


    You focus most of the Nightborne interaction horde side with the blood elves anyway, it's more about the blood elves than the horde - blood elf fans continue to get more stories and interaction with Nightborne, even when Nightborne and night elves interact, throw in some blood elves that are actually interested.. They firstly hold no resentment for Highborne , Moonguard, show them actually warming up to the Val'Sharah druids, show their friendship with the Nightborne actually opening them up to the Darnassians for a change. Breaking the ice a lot had due to the exile.


    Show some blood elves actually sympathetic because many Nightborne were appalled at Teldrassil, and had been helping night elves secretly, some blood elves found out, and were ashamed at the horde for it, also helped out and actually some friendships formed.


    The change in Legion, by discovering the legion was really after Azeroth, not their well of eternity and magic, would also have affected some of the prejudices a few night elves closer to Maiev's original crazy had held - that's not to say they abandon their disdain for hubris and addiction no, but pre-legion arcane phobia some of the non-arcane kaldorei had can be seen to change - because the legion events both the revelations about the legion and the curing of addiction , the return of Suramar, experience with the Shen'dralar, seeing the nobility of the Farondis, and how the moonguard held themselves, and how the Nightborne rose up to throw out the legion and drive Gul'dan has created some serious respect in some of the Darnassians too, opening them up too and them being generally benevolent have been willing to be open to the sin'dorei as well.


    This is how you can do it. It doesn't have to be perfect, you don't have to have blood elves and night elves become best friends, but you can show positive things happening between the two through this ancient home of the Darnassians and their proud kin, still proud of their kaldorei heritage who've returned.


    Show the rift healing, though it's too late to join the alliance now, it doesn't mean the Nightborne can't have a good relationship build with the Darnassians - not just the island night elves, the Darnassians without the horde losing them or Suramar needing to be neutral or blue.


    They can do this, and so much more if they want to help at least fix some of the bad blood their move created.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  17. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    to be fair the Argent Lordaeronians were mostly sitting in Hearthglen and Tyr's Hand area and were never attacked even once by the Forsaken - and that' the Forsaken

    - - - Updated - - -



    I wouldn't put Nightborne guilty by association; they weren't part of the War of the Thorns and I don't see them do anything like Brennadam or the like and they were also eventually against Sylvanas at the end

    - - - Updated - - -



    to be fair even without the drivel the Nightborne would still choose the Horde because they would see how the Alliance Highborne were treated and were only accepted like how the teacher forced a group of kids to accept a kid they don't want to be with; and the Blood Elves would still have more kinship with them. The blood of the covenant is still greater than the water of the womb
    And you think in a sane world anybody would trust them after their "stark" record of "We good now" after Azshara, Elisane and Sylvanas all one after another?

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    SNIP.
    That's all well and good but I think your putting too much emphasis in Night Elves and Nightborne just go along with it. The race most important to the Nightborne are the Nightborne and they must come first. It's all too much to start giving these big grand entrances which actually could interfere with Nightborne lore progression with Nightborne characters. It would be better to emphasis this to all who are still kaldorei.

    Void Elf fans wouldn't like it if Blood Elves were at the center of their story for long periods, so why should the night elves under Tyrande be this heavily involved in the Nightborne story. If anything, only the night elves on the Broken Isles should have some involvement, but again - the main focus is given to the Nightborne, not the Night Elves.
    Night Elves will get their story with Hyjal - it's not fair to give them a load of lore on Kalimdor and restoring Ashenvale, Hyjal and Darkshore then give them even more in Suramar, which is at risk of taking lore away from the Nightborne and Nightborne characters, just to make night elf fans happy, when they've already been compensated with big stuff in North West Kalimdor.

    Night Elf involvement in a Nightborne racial story should be minimal. Night Elves don't deserve to appear everywhere in all elves' racial stories. They have to sit down and let the other Elves have their stuff, on their own.

    But also - you talk about Night Elf fans and how upset they are, yet a few months ago you were more than happy to see Blood Elf fans upset and forced into leaving their land, be stripped of lore characters and made into stupid edgy, emo angry bad boys where you want them to ONLY deal with Fel and Necromancy, doing nothing in Orgrimmar or just having a few small towns and camps around Azshara and Bloodmyst isle, because "it's cool guys and it's Horde themed!" A big racist stereotype. So, I can't have sympathy for your plight at this stage, because you were perfectly willing to see Blood Elf fans have nothing. Maybe you need to know how it feels to have night elves go without and reflect on the fact that this is how Blood Elf fans would feel with your previous suggestions. It's not nice, is it...

  19. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    That's all well and good but I think your putting too much emphasis in Night Elves and Nightborne just go along with it. The race most important to the Nightborne are the Nightborne and they must come first. It's all too much to start giving these big grand entrances which actually could interfere with Nightborne lore progression with Nightborne characters. It would be better to emphasis this to all who are still kaldorei.
    We have no choice but to go along with whatever they do.

    All i can do is express what really angered me about how they handled it, and what would help by revealing what I want out of it at it's heart.

    I've always been one for deeper connections and delving into the lore of the race and seing more, so that will always please me.

    Problem is faction differences have actually soured a lot of things rather than made them enjoyable precisely because of how they've handled them. They could have had the Nightborne and Suramar on the horde and still allowed everything i wanted out of it, but the way they did it was a kick in alliance fans' teeth, souring the expeeriene for night elf fans..

    They have no awwareness of this it seems, or if they don, don't care, but they are the architects of this state too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tanaria View Post
    Void Elf fans wouldn't like it if Blood Elves were at the center of their story for long periods, so why should the night elves under Tyrande be this heavily involved in the Nightborne story. If anything, only the night elves on the Broken Isles should have some involvement, but again - the main focus is given to the Nightborne, not the Night Elves.
    Night Elves will get their story with Hyjal - it's not fair to give them a load of lore on Kalimdor and restoring Ashenvale, Hyjal and Darkshore then give them even more in Suramar, which is at risk of taking lore away from the Nightborne and Nightborne characters, just to make night elf fans happy, when they've already been compensated with big stuff in North West Kalimdor.

    Night Elf involvement in a Nightborne racial story should be minimal. Night Elves don't deserve to appear everywhere in all elves' racial stories. They have to sit down and let the other Elves have their stuff, on their own.

    But also - you talk about Night Elf fans and how upset they are, yet a few months ago you were more than happy to see Blood Elf fans upset and forced into leaving their land, be stripped of lore characters and made into stupid edgy, emo angry bad boys where you want them to ONLY deal with Fel and Necromancy, doing nothing in Orgrimmar or just having a few small towns and camps around Azshara and Bloodmyst isle, because "it's cool guys and it's Horde themed!" A big racist stereotype. So, I can't have sympathy for your plight at this stage, because you were perfectly willing to see Blood Elf fans have nothing. Maybe you need to know how it feels to have night elves go without and reflect on the fact that this is how Blood Elf fans would feel with your previous suggestions. It's not nice, is it...
    I still want the kaldorei to have their reconnection with Suramar to done well and properly. AS satated, I don't need the nightborne to change factions or the city to be blue, neutral or red, I am interested in seeing the kaldorei continue to build relations with their kin and explore a future that improves their fantasy. That's what I'd like to see. I don't expect or wnat it to be eventless or totally smooth, i tcan be interesting both for positive thigns as well as conflict things becuase of the nuanecs of interactionswhich bieng in different factions can bring, but i don't want that to dominate this.. Suramar and the ngihtborne is a kaldorei story,7.0 and 7.1 was too, I'd like to see that continuet o be explored properly, and i'm fine with the blood elves playing a role in that too. I'm fine with blodo elf nightborne relations continuing to grow too, i just want the darnassians and suramar to to get their relationship going and their happy ending of their 10,000 year long painful arc.

    I don't need them to be joined to the hip, i don't need them to be constnatly involved with each other. i'd like to see that they have a relatosion ship, their rekindling thier lost time and re-integrating with each other, i'm fine with that.. i'm fine with the night elves on the borken isles pretty much liviing htier own lives and having little to do with the Darnassians, but i want the relationships to be reforged and be set right in the manner i described in the earlier post, then the Darnassians can continue their Hyjal existence, and the borken isles can continue it's own, as all components of the kaldorei in their various elements.

    I view the nightborne as a componenet of the kaldorei that are firendly witht eh blood leves and deal with the horde, I want to see more of that for who they are.. i don't need them to be joined at the Darnassians' hip.. but that doesn't mean I felt what they did by taking them horde was good or am okay with it. It was a slap in the face and a kick in the teeth. But it's not hte end of hte world and there are many ways very good things for both night elves and blood elves and the kaldorei larger arc can benefit from it.
    Valewalker Farodin: "Magic has long been a vice of the elves. It shaped us, and lifted us out of the darkness - but without balance, it also threatens to unmake us."

    My long replies often repeat info to make sure: You get all the info I have, It is clear and complete, in case you didn't actually read the first one. New readers have context at hand and are reminded of the point

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    SNIP
    Ok, but what I mean is, in a racial/class pride expansion, then it doesn't do Nightborne players to have their races' story being infiltrated by Night Elves, nor would the average Night Elf player want to always be involved with a Horde race.

    So rather than Tyrande (because I think she needs to sit out and Night Elf Priest players do quests with Belysra Starbreeze who is a lot bigger than the time she's given in-game), what if Night Elf Mage players, with Mordent Evenshade and Nightborne Mage, Warlock and Priest players with Thalyssra meet up and...converse about the old times, good - bad - ugly.
    I reckon that is fair because I saw comments from Highborne fans and it's not so much about the whole thing regarding the Elune worship what people were talking about, it's the fact that Blizzard said "Highborne of Suramar became Nightborne." So maybe a better idea is for Nightborne casters and Night Elf Mages to have a questline that takes them to Zin-Azshari, they converse and the kaldorei go one way and shal'dorei go the other.

    I don't believe it's the direction that the Night Elf Priesthood will go to the Suramar Province.

    Also, we talk about the Valewalker Farodin - I regret to say that unless they change his VA, we won't be seeing his character return as his VA sadly passed in 2018.

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