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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    That also was immediately broked because they could not stand the orcs there, two blodly times



    ah yeah dude, just like the orcs started the earthen ring, of course they creating a neutral group explain everything and took all the blame from then



    Horde got the part that the warsong had conquered back in wc3, at the edge of the forest, and to my awareness, that place was never "returned to the night elves", not even now.



    Now he was a wimp? so i can just say he disapproved the warsong attacking the night elves back because he was a wimp,? woaw, thanks

    like, that is on brand with thrall actions, getting attacked by alliance and do nothing about it and "disapprove" if you strike back
    You walk in circles. They agreed on a trade deal, not on Warsong running around in Ashenvale.

    And no, there were no "parts" of it. During Cata they got "parts", before that it wasnt a deal.

    And Thrall is notorious for his strange obsession with "Hellscream's legacy", those being Warsong and Garrosh, both of which he tried to elevate much higher then they deserved and against the better judgement. Even against Garroshe's own protests since he just wanted to "make it up" for Grommash by making his kid a Warchief even though he wasnt ready.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I understand your point.
    What you don't get is that even with evidence there is no way it can scale that much. The problem is not that Sylvanas started a war or that he tried to conquer the Kaldorei. That's normal.
    Because it is more assumed that the Alliance if he did things to start a war, Genn in essence starts the war in legion. Another thing is that Blizzard ignored them to make Sylvanas 100% bad.

    The problem is that I aimed catapults at civilians who had surrendered. I shot them and killed them all and no one said anything.
    tank god you finnaly understand. ( i hope) lets keep reading.
    Ohhh wait, nevermind.

    Did i ever say it could scale enough to make teldrassil right? NOPE. I mean, a better excuse to start a war. A way better then they had now ( mining azurite ). Never said it should be on the same level as. Hell think if the horde knew teldrassil burning upfront they would not do it. So a couple of alliance attacks, maybe a city or hospital burned ( could be real alliance attacks, or just staged ones by sylvannas).

    And she did not do it to conquer them. She has been working for the jailor since WotlK. She did it to start a war that poored even more souls into the shadowlands. Because after argus boss fight ( most likely the cause of the arbiters blue screen). All the souls went to zovaal ( jailor).

    And no Genn did not start it in legion. If you are talking about stormheim. If you pick any start point in legion it would be the battle that cost vol'jin and varians life.
    But the real start was mining the azurite for power. After that alliance went with a fleet to silithus to stop that. And then horde attacked night elves.

    Euuuuhhh nope, thats why they give sylvannas blue eyes, make it seem she was not completly in control. Otherwise we would have killed her in the raid. And she was 100% bad before that ( as far was we knew). She was working for the jailor all along...you know the jailor the big bad of this expansion?

    So again you are missing so many things, and filling in blanks that are not there.

  3. #143
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    You walk in circles. They agreed on a trade deal, not on Warsong running around in Ashenvale.
    they don't have to agree on anything, the warsong already took the place and had settle on it, they didn't leave, thats why the night elves broke the deal and attack then.

    the exact Same thing happened in wtlk, night elves break the agreement and attack the orcs using wrathgate as excuse.
    And no, there were no "parts" of it. During Cata they got "parts", before that it wasnt a deal.
    Again, the warsong clan was already settled there, and they never left.

    And Thrall is notorious for his strange obsession with "Hellscream's legacy", those being Warsong and Garrosh, both of which he tried to elevate much higher then they deserved and against the better judgement. Even against Garroshe's own protests since he just wanted to "make it up" for Grommash by making his kid a Warchief even though he wasnt ready.
    The warsong was/is the biggest and stronger clan within the horde, they deserve their praise, and regardless of what thrall think about Grom Garrosh was one of the best options in a moment of war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    And no Genn did not start it in legion. If you are talking about stormheim. If you pick any start point in legion it would be the battle that cost vol'jin and varians life..
    Why the horde and alliance getting their ass kicked in broken shore is the reason the conflict re-start?

    From everything we know, the "war" never stop at SoO, they end in an cease-fire, and Gen actions are definitely considered as breaking the cease-fire and re-ignite the war, but they ignored that plot to make the horde the villains with a shit ass excuse

    I mean, Sylvanas herself said that in the book, she used Gen attack as excuse that the alliance was never going to stop attacking then, so they had to attack first.
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2021-07-25 at 11:00 PM.

  4. #144
    I think it's more likely to make it seem like the Horde suffered some repercussions for their actions. Plus it makes sense the Horde did effectively loose the war, certianly the weaker side coming out of it.

  5. #145
    It will 100% be ignored.

    Kind of like how Dalaran became an Alliance city in MoP, and then that was immediately rescinded the moment Dalaran became relevant again.

  6. #146
    I think the reasons are clear as Velen said. There is no way the night elves are gonna play nice with the horde anytime soon.

    This stuff won't be reflected in-game though.

    As usual the lore is relegated to books and not the game.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they don't have to agree on anything, the warsong already took the place and had settle on it, they didn't leave, thats why the night elves broke the deal and attack then.

    the exact Same thing happened in wtlk, night elves break the agreement and attack the orcs using wrathgate as excuse.


    Again, the warsong clan was already settled there, and they never left.



    The warsong was/is the biggest and stronger clan within the horde, they deserve their praise, and regardless of what thrall think about Grom Garrosh was one of the best options in a moment of war.

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    Why the horde and alliance getting their ass kicked in broken shore is the reason the conflict re-start?

    From everything we know, the "war" never stop at SoO, they end in an cease-fire, and Gen actions are definitely considered as breaking the cease-fire and re-ignite the war, but they ignored that plot to make the horde the villains with a shit ass excuse

    I mean, Sylvanas herself said that in the book, she used Gen attack as excuse that the alliance was never going to stop attacking then, so they had to attack first.
    And in your fallacious logic you missing the main point again, if Warsong was actively “settling” in the Ashenvale then why would Tyrande or Malf sign the trade deal?

    If during the time of a “summit” there were Horde troops or settlers taking over Ashenvale Tyrande would have simply continued the war with the Horde or never signed any treaties with them.

    Your own “logic” defeats you here.

  8. #148
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    And in your fallacious logic you missing the main point again, if Warsong was actively “settling” in the Ashenvale then why would Tyrande or Malf sign the trade deal?
    why it is fallacious? go there and you will see they were settle there even before vanilla.

    why they had to sign the trade deal? so they stop fighting and didn't escalate the conflict? so the orcs don't go deeper and the night elves stop attacking then? lol, like, exactly what happened later

    If during the time of a “summit” there were Horde troops or settlers taking over Ashenvale Tyrande would have simply continued the war with the Horde or never signed any treaties with them.
    yeah, of course, like she can

    Your own “logic” defeats you here.
    is not my problem if you have a fantasy version of events and can't see what rly happened..

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by WonderZebra View Post
    I think it's more likely to make it seem like the Horde suffered some repercussions for their actions. Plus it makes sense the Horde did effectively loose the war, certianly the weaker side coming out of it.
    It's wierd. After the whole NAz'jatar fiasco it's framed that basically everyone faction aligned besides Sylvanas loyalists is running on fumes, with some people specifically suggesting it may be better to let Sylvanas deal with N'zoth. And that the whole "siege" is more of a heilmerry than anything, in case Sylvanas decides to drop 200iq and leave for no real logical reason other than that the writers needed her to...

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    It's wierd. After the whole NAz'jatar fiasco it's framed that basically everyone faction aligned besides Sylvanas loyalists is running on fumes, with some people specifically suggesting it may be better to let Sylvanas deal with N'zoth. And that the whole "siege" is more of a heilmerry than anything, in case Sylvanas decides to drop 200iq and leave for no real logical reason other than that the writers needed her to...
    Oh fuck I forgot about the Alliance also suddenly having no power ethier.

    The only reasons her escape makes sense is if you assume the forsaken banner holder was one of her most loyal undead and seeing her wavier Slyvanas believed a mass defection was very very likely. But then that just pushes the her Iq drop to shouting the horde means nothing ...

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    In the new Exploring Kalimdor book, Velen tells Zekhan and Rexxar that even as explorers and cartographers, they are not allowed into Night Elf lands "for clear reasons".

    What does this spell out for any future expansion that takes place on EK or Kalimdor? We have yet to see an event that would really convince them to let the Horde players into their lands, and it runs against the ongoing theme of neutrality that seems like it will be continued in the future. See: Calia being groomed for the position of Forsaken queen, who likely would let Alliance in her lands.

    Is this just a reason to hide Night Elf zone development from lore, or will this Night Elf blockade continue into the future?
    I don't think it says anything one way or the other about a future expansion on EK or Kalimdor. If anything, it's more just showing that even without Tyrande, there is still a lot of animosity toward the Horde from the Alliance after the Fourth War. I imagine the Alliance would get a similar response about having a meeting of any sort in Dazar'Alor. When it will really matter IMO is once everyone is back from the Shadowlands: Thrall, Jaina, Baine, probably Anduin & Tyrande too. If Tyrande finds herself with a bit of peace in her heart, she may be the catalyst that allows the Horde back onto those lands and works to help other Night Elves. Conversely, a similar thing could happen if Talanji met with Rastakhan and he promoted peace.

    But for now, I think this is just a look at how the politics of Azeroth are being handled.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Again, night elves attacked first. All the way back in the orc campaign of WC3. Anything the Warsong do is retaliation for being attacked by elves and a demigod without provocation.
    Hordies LOVE to push the idea that the debts of the Old Horde were paid up with Hyjal, but somehow Hyjal didn't square any grievances the Horde had. That makes the Horde hypocrites but good.

    You want to claim the Night Elves are fair game for an event more than a decade (would need to check on exact in game time) ago? Cool, the Horde is fair game for everything the Old Horde pulled. Exact same logic, but I expect attempts at weaseling out of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Hordies LOVE to push the idea that the debts of the Old Horde were paid up with Hyjal, but somehow Hyjal didn't square any grievances the Horde had. That makes the Horde hypocrites but good.

    You want to claim the Night Elves are fair game for an event more than a decade (would need to check on exact in game time) ago? Cool, the Horde is fair game for everything the Old Horde pulled. Exact same logic, but I expect attempts at weaseling out of it.
    If we ignore Knaak then the warcraft 3 thing can be summed up as 1st contact skirmishes, with a side of legion meddling, which seemingly get resolved/put aside, for the battle against Archimonde. As far as Vanilla goes both Warsong aggro lumbering and NEs joining the Aliance is wierdly contrived and doesn't really make sense in universe. Especially when you consider that they had the Tauren to make common ground, on top of an originally tribal societal structure for the NEs and everyone being all nature-y.

    Basically all the other faction related NE stuff kind of stems from those wierd contrivances (and Thrall building his capital in a desert like an idiot). Building these "feuds" on shoddy foundations only ever does end shoddy. Interestingly enough Forsaken vs the Kingdom remnants, while not really explored from aliance side, because they mainly follow the southorns is well executed, in that you can see where both sides are coming from, unlike this contrived mess.

  14. #154
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Hordies LOVE to push the idea that the debts of the Old Horde were paid up with Hyjal, but somehow Hyjal didn't square any grievances the Horde had. That makes the Horde hypocrites but good.
    Horde already "paid" their debts witht heir own blood and freedom already Hyjal was just a bonus to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    You want to claim the Night Elves are fair game for an event more than a decade (would need to check on exact in game time) ago? Cool, the Horde is fair game for everything the Old Horde pulled. Exact same logic, but I expect attempts at weaseling out of it.
    two reasons:

    1) Night elves keep doing it, they did in w3, they did in vanila and they did again in wtlk

    2) the old horde is not even alive anymore, there is barely old orcs alive from that time with Eitrigg and Drek'Thar basically being the last ones alive and they are already in death's door, the orcs today are born in azeroth and in the concentration camps they are not responsible for the "old horde" did, unlike the night elves who are still alive cause they live centuries

  15. #155
    @Syegfryed I'm not interested in your orc roleplaying, sorry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  16. #156
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sighy View Post
    If we ignore Knaak then the warcraft 3 thing can be summed up as 1st contact skirmishes, with a side of legion meddling, which seemingly get resolved/put aside, for the battle against Archimonde. As far as Vanilla goes both Warsong aggro lumbering and NEs joining the Aliance is wierdly contrived and doesn't really make sense in universe. Especially when you consider that they had the Tauren to make common ground, on top of an originally tribal societal structure for the NEs and everyone being all nature-y..
    Did make sense for the sole fact that night elves were not like they are today

    Before night elves are salvage, ruthless and xenophobes, they were like the amazons, not tolerating any outsider regardless, Maiev said herself the night elves extinct many other races before.

    They could set aside their differences to fight the legion, but the moment the mess was finished, they would turn their eyes in the outsiders who killed cenarius regardless if they were in peace or not, they would not want to form an alliance with then like the tauren did because they don't like outsides, especially the ones who bested then.

    Things are much more simple to understand if you get the night elf mindset that they had back then, not the today human lapdogs who had to even turn to change their nocturnal habits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    @Syegfryed I'm not interested in your orc roleplaying, sorry.
    ah, i forgot you LARP as an alliance soldier in a echo chamber., my mistake

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by VladlTutushkin View Post
    When Warsong Clan faces consequences for breaking a treaty since god damn Vanilla...

    And Genn suffered his whole Kingdom being lost to Sylvanas when he was keen on watching paint dry until his death behind the Wall.
    I don't care what Genn suffered X years ago in another war. He attacked the Warchief and didn't get any punishment. You can't blame the Horde for retaliating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    First, Anduin (likely) doesn't have the power to force consequences for the other Alliance leaders, he's their High King (which is simply the commander of the Alliance forces) not their ruler. I believe we even see Genn and Tyrande rebuke Andiun's requests after the War of Thorns, showing his power over the Alliance isn't absolute.
    Second, there's a difference between an individual acting against the wishes of the Alliance (which, in retrospect, ended up being a good thing) and the Horde, in aggregate, being genocidal.
    Genn literally lives in Stormwind. He sure as hell has the power to punish him.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    tank god you finnaly understand. ( i hope) lets keep reading.
    Ohhh wait, nevermind.
    JA

    Quote Originally Posted by baskev View Post
    Did i ever say it could scale enough to make teldrassil right? NOPE. I mean, a better excuse to start a war. A way better then they had now ( mining azurite ). Never said it should be on the same level as. Hell think if the horde knew teldrassil burning upfront they would not do it. So a couple of alliance attacks, maybe a city or hospital burned ( could be real alliance attacks, or just staged ones by sylvannas).
    What I am saying is that if the Alliance did that suddenly and without provocation then the Alliance would be bad for no reason. It is not fixing the plot error. It just moves it to another place.

    Although the idea of a plan from Sylvanas would have liked me more.

  19. #159
    Warchief Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Genn literally lives in Stormwind. He sure as hell has the power to punish him.
    And you think that imprisoning or punishing the leader of another nation within the Alliance will do what, exactly? I'm going to let you in on a secret, a sovereign people would not stand idly by while allowing their king to be imprisoned or face other equal punishments from an external force. Neither Varian nor Anduin was their master, nor are they the master of any other Alliance race. Additionally, Genn's actions in Stormheim resulted in a beneficial outcome (i.e.: ensured that Eyir was not enslaved) and would not be looked on favorably by the Alliance or Horde (though given the Horde's willingness to allow their own leaders to be imprisoned on the whim of Sylvanas, I guess that's debatable).

    Pointing to Genn and equating his actions to the multiple genocides carried out by the Horde, specifically as lead by the Forsaken, is not a great argument to make.
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  20. #160
    Herald of the Titans Nathreim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken, the reason why the War of Thorns went so badly was because the Night Elves sent their forces to Silithus. The bulk of the Nigh Elven army should still be relatively intact.
    If you read A Good War the army returns before the Horde even gets to Darkshore but they never get off their ships. As they arrive the Horde uses their azerite weapons to destroy most of their ships killing everyone on them. A handful do escape but the bulk burned like Stannis on the Blackwater.

    Thats not counting the losses taken by the night elves in Darkshore during the battle or in the retaking of Darkshore.

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