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  1. #1

    Night Elf Lands Blocked to Horde

    In the new Exploring Kalimdor book, Velen tells Zekhan and Rexxar that even as explorers and cartographers, they are not allowed into Night Elf lands "for clear reasons".

    What does this spell out for any future expansion that takes place on EK or Kalimdor? We have yet to see an event that would really convince them to let the Horde players into their lands, and it runs against the ongoing theme of neutrality that seems like it will be continued in the future. See: Calia being groomed for the position of Forsaken queen, who likely would let Alliance in her lands.

    Is this just a reason to hide Night Elf zone development from lore, or will this Night Elf blockade continue into the future?

  2. #2
    With the latest Blizzard events and good Blizzard in general. They allow us two options.
    A To a great event of punishment to the Horde (another one)
    B will be ignored in one or two expansions. After Tyrande learns that justice is wrong and must follow the blond white man with blue eyes.

    PS: There is also the option that only the Player has to allow to go through the times that the Player helped.
    It would be great if Thrall, Anduin and the player come and have a void and Tyrande send Thrall and Anduin to hell.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-23 at 03:08 PM.

  3. #3
    After the many aggressions and atrocities that the Horde inflicted on them, and the times they gave the Horde their chance to change for the better, it's only natural for the Night Elves and their closest allies to not let any Hordie in their territories anymore, in fact it's long overdue and realistically it should take years or decades at the very best before they allow members of the Horde to travel in their lands anymore.

    But given the writing it may only last one or two expansions with the Horde being once again forgiven too quickly and easely, and the Night Elves being forced to adopt Anduin's absurdly pacifist views.

  4. #4
    It spells that there won't be any future expansions in Kalimdor/EK.

    Or that the now tamed and appeased Tyrande is gonna have a long heartfelt talk about peace with her people.

    Which could either lead to the usual statu quo of not changing anything or some actual change in that "ongoing theme of neutrality".

    Maybe a warmongering part of the Horde (like the warsong) just won't care about it, leaving us with the situation you can see playing out ingame since Cataclysm.

  5. #5
    Contested areas like Ashenvale would be more interesting if there were dynamic territories, functioning like the eye of jailor (or much better, the GTA police levels). The more activities players do in hostile territory, the more they arouse the attention of the opposing faction and more npc's start joining the fight.

  6. #6
    I mean...

    They are welcome to try, but they dont have an amazing track record.

  7. #7
    Oh, they can come back - as slaves. Rebuilding what they destroyed, working for the reparations they owe the night elves, you know, because
    IRL, the victors write history and they define the terms of the victory.

    And since the Alliance alledgedly won the war - again - they are to dictate the terms of what comes next.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    With the latest Blizzard events and good Blizzard in general. They allow us two options.
    A To a great event of punishment to the Horde (another one)
    B will be ignored in one or two expansions. After Tyrande learns that justice is wrong and must follow the blond white man with blue eyes.
    I must have missed that... what great event of punishment did happen... ever? And don't mention SoO. There, only the heads of the hydra were cut off.

    OT: It may mean, that the War is still in Warcraft...


  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    I mean...

    They are welcome to try, but they dont have an amazing track record.
    Anyway they are not going to give it so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    I must have missed that... what great event of punishment did happen... ever? And don't mention SoO. There, only the heads of the hydra were cut off.

    OT: It may mean, that the War is still in Warcraft...
    BFA is a great message of "being Horde is bad", "your characters are useless" and "everything you have done is worth nothing".

    And yet even so they still need to be punished for the damage they did to others.

    This is why BFA is so bad. They punish the Player for his Horde and not for his crimes.
    The Horde player is tired of being Punished and the Alliance Player still has no justice.

  9. #9
    As long as they don't plan to do a revamp it does not matter anyways.

    If they revamp the Zones and actually redo leveling for individual races (which I doubt), Ashenvale maybe just turns into the second main zone (with Hyjal as starting Zone)... just like Darkshore was before that (would be a pretty big second zone).
    Horde left Ashenvale after Cataclysm and all their resource extraction operations were removed, so there would be no reason for the Horde anyway. (Unless they attack again of course)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivarr View Post
    Contested areas like Ashenvale would be more interesting if there were dynamic territories, functioning like the eye of jailor (or much better, the GTA police levels). The more activities players do in hostile territory, the more they arouse the attention of the opposing faction and more npc's start joining the fight.
    I was actually thinking about that some days ago, would be pretty cool. It works particularly well with how the Night Elfs are portraited as defenders of their land.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Anyway they are not going to give it so.


    BFA is a great message of "being Horde is bad", "your characters are useless" and "everything you have done is worth nothing".

    And yet even so they still need to be punished for the damage they did to others.

    This is why BFA is so bad. They punish the Player for his Horde and not for his crimes.
    The Horde player is tired of being Punished and the Alliance Player still has no justice.
    Yeah, Horde got the message "Horde is bad"... because they are. But Alliance, especially night elves had to actually pay the price.

    You guys want to be the tough, ugly, edgy, bad guys, but also but god forbid someone is calling you out for it.
    It's like wanting to have your cake and eat it, too. Make a choice.

    It would be more interesting if the writers were actually able to make the story more ambiguous, morally gray. But they are constantly going for
    Game of Thrones shock and awe.


  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Yeah, Horde got the message "Horde is bad"... because they are. But Alliance, especially night elves had to actually pay the price.

    You guys want to be the tough, ugly, edgy, bad guys, but also but god forbid someone is calling you out for it.
    It's like wanting to have your cake and eat it, too. Make a choice.

    It would be more interesting if the writers were actually able to make the story more ambiguous, morally gray. But they are constantly going for
    Game of Thrones shock and awe.
    You guys?
    I think you should see the reaction of the Horde in Teldrazzil. The whole shoulderless event, literally the Horde sending Goldeen a hateful message about the event.

    And no, the Horde wasn't bad. If the Horde's joke is to be big, beastly guys. Not to invade and destroy other lands.
    If Horde Players want to be a big tough guy let him dedicate himself to being a wild hero. and I highlight the word HERO.

    Teldrazzil and BFA is about being a MONSTER. That is already a punishment. You chose the "ugly" Race now you have to be punished with being the bad guys and then be punished because your PCs are not generic and boring Saints and we take them away.

    The Kaldorei suffered for the Horde to receive a message that you already knew and that they were supposed to have learned 3 times before.
    The Horde lost everything it meant to be a Horde to tell the story of the giant Blue Smurf. (When we had Nzoht's story that was the same but better)
    And by the way if the Horde in BFA is bad the Horad is still bad. She has hardly changed any Leader.

    For Elune we were forced to see Baien as the HEART of the Horde, the guy who agreed with Teldrazzil and Varock as the example of HONOR who planned Teldrazzil and enjoys killing civilians who defend his house. Having those two characters is a punishment and not only a punishment is Blizzard telling us that the Horde did not learn anything.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Yeah, Horde got the message "Horde is bad"... because they are. But Alliance, especially night elves had to actually pay the price.

    You guys want to be the tough, ugly, edgy, bad guys, but also but god forbid someone is calling you out for it.
    It's like wanting to have your cake and eat it, too. Make a choice.

    It would be more interesting if the writers were actually able to make the story more ambiguous, morally gray. But they are constantly going for
    Game of Thrones shock and awe.
    While it's fascinating that you expect the players to come together and mutually agree on anything, it's the writers who are responsible for setting the Horde's direction.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    *snip*
    I think this is a bit OT what you discuss here.
    There are like six different groups of Horde players who want the Horde to be very different things (Some like evil WC2 Horde... some WC3 Horde... and so on).

    In the end, it comes down to, story-wise the Horde did bad stuff (again). This time it was probably the worst stuff possible I would say. So it makes only sense that Night Elf would not accept any Horde in their land who ravage it before... twice... and killed their civilians, not only Teldrassil but also in Astranaar and other Night Elf settlements. Not saying this is a great story (it isn't). But it is how it is but at least things are not instantly forgotten (like after Cataclysm).

    So this makes perfect sense to me, I would not be surprised if Night Elf secretly run sabotaging operations to hurt the Horde in Kalimdor even more.

    You chose the "ugly" Race
    Most play blood elf actually, or are you talking about them being ugly inside?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    You guys?
    I think you should see the reaction of the Horde in Teldrazzil. The whole shoulderless event, literally the Horde sending Goldeen a hateful message about the event.

    And no, the Horde wasn't bad. If the Horde's joke is to be big, beastly guys. Not to invade and destroy other lands.
    If Horde Players want to be a big tough guy let him dedicate himself to being a wild hero. and I highlight the word HERO.

    Teldrazzil and BFA is about being a MONSTER. That is already a punishment. You chose the "ugly" Race now you have to be punished with being the bad guys and then be punished because your PCs are not generic and boring Saints and we take them away.

    The Kaldorei suffered for the Horde to receive a message that you already knew and that they were supposed to have learned 3 times before.
    The Horde lost everything it meant to be a Horde to tell the story of the giant Blue Smurf. (When we had Nzoht's story that was the same but better)
    And by the way if the Horde in BFA is bad the Horad is still bad. She has hardly changed any Leader.

    For Elune we were forced to see Baien as the HEART of the Horde, the guy who agreed with Teldrazzil and Varock as the example of HONOR who planned Teldrazzil and enjoys killing civilians who defend his house. Having those two characters is a punishment and not only a punishment is Blizzard telling us that the Horde did not learn anything.
    I believe you that there also were Horde players who did not agree with Teldrassil. And that it hurts your pride to be painted as the stupid race you never learn from their mistakes.

    But the Horde only ever got their pride hurt while the Alliance suffered actual consequences. Losing lands (Teldrassil, Theramore, Hillsbrad Foothills, etc.), losing revered characters (Varian, Derek Proudmoore, Sira Moonwarden, Calia Menethil, Delaryn Summermoon, Rhonin).
    What did the Horde actually lose to the Alliance whilst the Alliance were alledgedly "winning" every war?


  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Yeah, Horde got the message "Horde is bad"... because they are. But Alliance, especially night elves had to actually pay the price.

    You guys want to be the tough, ugly, edgy, bad guys, but also but god forbid someone is calling you out for it.
    It's like wanting to have your cake and eat it, too. Make a choice.

    It would be more interesting if the writers were actually able to make the story more ambiguous, morally gray. But they are constantly going for
    Game of Thrones shock and awe.
    I am now certain that Night Elves players actually bleed when their precious characters get hurt.

  16. #16
    I mean, an assload of stuff is said in the books that isn't even vaguely referenced in the game so I'd bet nothing, and not at all.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    ...
    I put it to you in these words.
    If the punishment is going to make the Kaldorei learn better or the Horde really learn something and stop having to learn the same in 3 expansions.

    Great with punishment.
    But punishment is not going to accomplish either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hellspawn View Post
    ....
    I make this clear I agree that the Horde is in Debt with the Kaldorei.
    But at BFA it's a story of how we have to feel bad about being Horde. Feeling bad about having a warchief. Feeling bad about basically everything.

    And that did not accomplish anything. It didn't make the Kaldorei Players feel better and it didn't make the Horde "learn" from their mistakes.


    PS: If I really controlled the lore. the Horde was wounded and drained. There the pastures are greener. As much as the cinematic of cuerta wants to tell us that this world is dying.
    Azeroth also dies in the Orc lands and apart from that the world hates them.

    In other words, it is better to have "little grain" than "grain poisoned by the Forsaken."
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-23 at 04:41 PM.

  18. #18
    I would love if this led to a storyline with the night elves split over whether to prioritise peace or caution/retribution with strong personalities on both sides of the issue, but unfortunately it's not likely to happen. there are some good writers at Blizzard but there's also some pretty bad ones

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eggroll View Post
    Oh, they can come back - as slaves. Rebuilding what they destroyed, working for the reparations they owe the night elves, you know, because
    IRL, the victors write history and they define the terms of the victory.

    And since the Alliance alledgedly won the war - again - they are to dictate the terms of what comes next.
    I don't think any faction in the Warcraft universe has ever demanded reparations from another. And I don't think Night Elves want any orcs helping them rebuild. More than likely the Night Elves just wants the Horde to fuck off and never see have to see their tusked green faces again.

    If the Alliance was allowed by the writers to dictate terms, then realistically this is what should happen. Dismantlement of the Horde war machine by smashing their industry, keeping them from massing armies, deporting the tribes that are too warlike, and a deprogramming period for the rest, and then after like 20-30 years the Alliance withdraws, having safely pacified their former enemies. Basically what the Allies did at the end of WW2.

  20. #20
    It makes sense they wouldn't want Horde trespassing, but given the state of the world, as we were told, if you combined the rebels and loyalists there is no way Aliance could actually enforce a damned thing outside of what the Horde allows to happen. But as always with these perma war settings armies usually come out of the writer's rear end, when the plot needs them to. Despite repeated genocidal conflicts every few years. Not just a Warcraft problem that.



    Given the in game dialogue majority of the Night Elves just are tired and want to be left alone, with Tyrande being one of the fringe cases.

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