Night Elf Lands Blocked to Horde

[VladlTutushkin]

Sure, as soon as Genn Greymane faces consequences for trying to assassinate the Warchief during Legion.

And then Anduin faces consequences for Genn not facing consequences.

When Warsong Clan faces consequences for breaking a treaty since god damn Vanilla...

And Genn suffered his whole Kingdom being lost to Sylvanas when he was keen on watching paint dry until his death behind the Wall.

[Syegfryed]

When Warsong Clan faces consequences for breaking a treaty since god damn Vanilla...

never, because who break the the agreement was the night elves, 2 times, in vanila and in wtlk

[VladlTutushkin]

never, because who break the the agreement was the night elves, 2 times, in vanila and in wtlk

Warsong attacked them before that. Warcraft 3 was BEFORE Vanilla, then after WoW story began Warsong was already raiding Ashenvale. And again, Thrall knew about it but refused to act because he was afraid of losing popularity with orcs.

[Syegfryed]

Maybe when chicken will have teeth.

apparently chicken do have teeth, a small one that help then get out the egg, but ti falls after a few days, there is also mutations that can lead that to happen

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Warsong attacked them before that. Warcraft 3 was BEFORE Vanilla, then after WoW story began Warsong was already raiding Ashenvale. And again, Thrall knew about it but refused to act because he was afraid of losing popularity with orcs.

they didn't, Night elves attacked first when the orcs enter the forest, they did nothing, a second time they attacked again before /during vanila, creating the battleground and later in wtLk because wrathgate

He "refused" to act against the counterattack because the people needed the resources to not die.

[VladlTutushkin]

apparently chicken do have teeth, a small one that help then get out the egg, but ti falls after a few days, there is also mutations that can lead that to happen

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they didn't, Night elves attacked first when the orcs enter the forest, they did nothing, a third time they attacked again before /during vanila, creating the battleground and later in wtLk because wrathgate

He "refused" to act against the counterattack because the people needed the resources to not die.

After Battle at Hyjal night elves and Horde got a trade agreement going, which also ended open hostilities between them. And Warsong Gulch premise was that Warsong invaded Ashenvale and sentinels were fighting them. Treaty between Horde and night elfs didnt gave horde the right to invade their land.

Fucken hell, its like explaining while breaking and entering and then also committing an armed robbery is bad. 'Muricans built entire culture about stuffing "home invading" people with lead before asking questions irl. Elves at least settled things peacefully after the battle with Archimond, at least until Warsong came in again.

[Magical Mudcrab]

I dont think the lands are literally blocked. The Night Elves dont have the strength to even hold Darkshore and had to abandon it for Hyjal which is more defensible. Its more of a diplomatic thing.

Unless I'm mistaken, the reason why the War of Thorns went so badly was because the Night Elves sent their forces to Silithus. The bulk of the Nigh Elven army should still be relatively intact.

[Syegfryed]

After Battle at Hyjal night elves and Horde got a trade agreement going, which also ended open hostilities between them. And Warsong Gulch premise was that Warsong invaded Ashenvale and sentinels were fighting them. Treaty between Horde and night elfs didnt gave horde the right to invade their land.

what premise is that? if there was an agreement there was no necessity for the orcs to attack, use your head, they invaded precisely because the night elves stop the agreement and want to kick every orcs out of ashenvale because they could not stand their presecense because back in the days they were xenophobic pricks.

Both of times the orcs only invaded to get resources when the night elves stop the agreement and start to attack then.

Fucken hell, its like explaining while breaking and entering and then also committing an armed robbery is bad. 'Muricans built entire culture about stuffing "home invading" people with lead before asking questions irl. Elves at least settled things peacefully after the battle with Archimond, at least until Warsong came in again.

It would be cute if it wasn't a blatantly lie, the orcs already had conquered that part of the forest they had settled when the night elves "nicely asked then to leave by murdering then do death on sight" peaceful my ass.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Sure, as soon as Genn Greymane faces consequences for trying to assassinate the Warchief during Legion.

And then Anduin faces consequences for Genn not facing consequences.

First, Anduin (likely) doesn't have the power to force consequences for the other Alliance leaders, he's their High King (which is simply the commander of the Alliance forces) not their ruler. I believe we even see Genn and Tyrande rebuke Andiun's requests after the War of Thorns, showing his power over the Alliance isn't absolute.
Second, there's a difference between an individual acting against the wishes of the Alliance (which, in retrospect, ended up being a good thing) and the Horde, in aggregate, being genocidal.

[VladlTutushkin]

what premise is that? if there was an agreement there was no necessity for the orcs to attack, use your head, they invaded precisely because the night elves stop the agreement and want to kick every orcs out of ashenvale because they could not stand their presecense because back in the days they were xenophobic pricks.

Both of times the orcs only invaded to get resources when the night elves stop the agreement and start to attack then.

It would be cute if it wasn't a blatantly lie, the orcs already had conquered that part of the forest they had settled when the night elves "nicely asked then to leave by murdering then do death on sight" peaceful my ass.

Violently getting someone's else resources because you were dumb enough to settle in the desert and then twice dumb to not think of alternative sources of resources is... retarded, frankly speaking. Ashenvale belonged to the night elves, no parts of it, no corners, no zones belonged to the Horde.

Post-Hyjal that was made clear by Alliance, Night Elves and Horde having their talks, no land concessions were given back then.

Tauren for example shared their land with orcs and trolls, Jaina settled previously unoccupied peninsula and Thrall built Orgrimmar in Durotar. No parts of Ashenvale changed hands.

[Syegfryed]

Violently getting someone's else resources because you were dumb enough to settle in the desert and then twice dumb to not think of alternative sources of resources is... retarded, frankly speaking. Ashenvale belonged to the night elves, no parts of it, no corners, no zones belonged to the Horde.

Again, it does not matter if it was dumb or retarded to settle in a desert, the warsong clan was already settled in ashenvale, because they took it in wc3, is the conqueror's law, something night elves did themselves in the past. That part did not belonged to night elves anymore the moment they went murder hobo on the orcs and lost it.

Post-Hyjal that was made clear by Alliance, Night Elves and Horde having their talks, no land concessions were given back then.

exactly, no lands were given back, therefore, the night elves went to attack the orcs trying to kick then out of ashenvale and breaking the agreement

Tauren for example shared their land with orcs and trolls, Jaina settled previously unoccupied peninsula and Thrall built Orgrimmar in Durotar. No parts of Ashenvale changed hands.

Taurens didn't share any land, they prob shared resources and that is the differential compared to the night elves,

Orcs only ever attacked the native races who attacked then first in Kalindor, that was their thing, the only exception was with the centaurs who outnumbered and were massacring the tauren.

[VladlTutushkin]

Again, it does not matter if it was dumb or retarded to settle in a desert, the warsong clan was already settled in ashenvale, because they took it in wc3, is the conqueror's law, something night elves did themselves in the past. That part did not belonged to night elves anymore the moment they went murder hobo on the orcs and lost it.



exactly, no lands were given back, therefore, the night elves went to attack the orcs trying to kick then out of ashenvale and breaking the agreement


Taurens didn't share any land, they prob shared resources and that is the differential compared to the night elves,

Orcs only ever attacked the native races who attacked then first in Kalindor, that was their thing, the only exception was with the centaurs who outnumbered and were massacring the tauren.

Thats just a blatant lie, Warsong's invasion was pretty much chalked down to Grommash going full retard due to Mannoroth's influence and it was "dealt with" after he got his rabid ass cleansed and then fought Mannoroth, his escapades in Ashenvale were not approved by Thrall (post-factum, after he learned that there were people there).

So orcs went to Durotar but were allowed to hunt and enter Ashenvale to gather lumber, NOT to settle there or raid the place like Warsong did, which is why Thrall was not happy about it.

Your headcanon about orcs getting any land in Asehnvale to settle breaks during the part where Malf, Tyrande, Jaina and Thrall are in one room and talking, how would you imagine that went? "Yeah, we kinda stole part of your land, but we good now?" and others just nod and go away? The fact they came to a consensus there pretty much sums up that night elves were not aggrieved by the end. Otherwise Tyrande and Malf wouldnt even sign the trade agreement.

[Hellspawn]

Again, it does not matter if it was dumb or retarded to settle in a desert, the warsong clan was already settled in ashenvale, because they took it in wc3, is the conqueror's law, something night elves did themselves in the past. That part did not belonged to night elves anymore the moment they went murder hobo on the orcs and lost it.

What kind of logic is that they never owned that land.
First of all, the Night Elfs did not have conquered any land after the Sundering they don't have any interest in that and never took any land beyond their ancestral home.
You just showed that Orcs have not changed at all "conqueror's law" sounds stuff evil xenophobes de-humanizing people they fight.

Beside that, the events how you see them don't exist, the Horde does not exist in you describe it. No one cares about your headcanon.

[VladlTutushkin]

What kind of logic is that they never owned that land.
First of all, the Night Elfs did not have conquered any land after the Sundering they don't have any interest in that and never took any land beyond their ancestral home.
You just showed that Orcs have not changed at all "conqueror's law" sounds stuff evil xenophobes de-humanizing people they fight.

Idk the stuff you write sounds like psychopathic logic.

No, he just tried desperately to make Warsong look right in the situation where even Warchief disagrees with them.

[Syegfryed]

Thats just a blatant lie, Warsong's invasion was pretty much chalked down to Grommash going full retard due to Mannoroth's influence and it was "dealt with" after he got his rabid ass cleansed and then fought Mannoroth, his escapades in Ashenvale were not approved by Thrall (post-factum, after he learned that there were people there).

i recommend you to play warcraft 3 again, to see for yourself who is lying.

The orcs where in the edge of the forest cutting trees to form a base on thrall' orders, the night elves start murdering then, they attacked back, simple as that.

So orcs went to Durotar but were allowed to hunt and enter Ashenvale to gather lumber, NOT to settle there or raid the place like Warsong did, which is why Thrall was not happy about it.

where did you get that first part? again, the orcs were already settled there in wc3, they only raid further because the night elves break the agreement and want to kick then out of there because at that time night elves were still written as xenophobic.

Your headcanon about orcs getting any land in Asehnvale to settle breaks during the part where Malf, Tyrande, Jaina and Thrall are in one room and talking, how would you imagine that went?

And when they do that? they went into room to discuss things? cause i never read that piece of lore sorry

"Yeah, we kinda stole part of your land, but we good now?" and others just nod and go away?

What stolen? conquered, because they attacked first, they lost the land

The fact they came to a consensus there pretty much sums up that night elves were not aggrieved by the end. Otherwise Tyrande and Malf wouldnt even sign the trade agreement.

what a bullshit, you are talking about a race that start murdering other beings by mere trespassing without making themselves to be visible, or make visible that the land belonged to someone else

only in your dreams this race of xenophobics would enter in a consensus, Orcs were show to work fine with the native races (taurens, trolls, Goblins) when they were open to an agreement/alliance consensus., the night elves just didn't wnt to.

The same thing happened as a deja vu in wtlk after wrathgatte.

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What kind of logic is that they never owned that land.

Night elves lost that part of ashenvale in c3 when they went murder hobo and got pushed back

the whole point of night elves back there was to kick the orcs from ashenvale because they were xenophobics, they didn't care about the agreement.

They did the same thing in wtlk using the wrathgate as excuse.

First of all, the Night Elfs did not have conquered any land after the Sundering they don't have any interest in that and never took any land beyond their ancestral home.

Sure, all the night elf land was just their land to begin with it, there was no expansion since they transformed from dark trolls, no night elf empire, nothing at all.

You just showed that Orcs have not changed at all "conqueror's law" sounds stuff evil xenophobes de-humanizing people they fight.

Again, in kalindor the orcs only attacked the races that attacked then first. They befreind taurens, trolls and goblins, they attacked quillboars, centaurs, murlocs and night elves, the difference in their behaviour is like day and night

The only xenophobes are the night elves who kill people for free by trespassing a place they never ever made visible that belonged to someone else

Beside that, the events how you see them don't exist, the Horde does not exist in you describe it. No one cares about your headcanon.

feel free to try to show otherwise your "nuh-hun" is not doing any good.

[Magnagarde]

I think that, under current narrative leadership, it is largely pointless to attribute these factors to predict what might happen next. The last time things like these were shown to matter was during Cataclysm and before that the Second War(lorewise).

[Syegfryed]

No, he just tried desperately to make Warsong look right in the situation where even Warchief disagrees with them.

sure, Like thrall didn't do anything about because he knew it was the only thing to do.

[VladlTutushkin]

i recommend you to play warcraft 3 again, to see for yourself who is lying.

The orcs where in the edge of the forest cutting trees to form a base on thrall' orders, the night elves start murdering then, they attacked back, simple as that.



where did you get that first part? again, the orcs were already settled there in wc3, they only raid further because the night elves break the agreement and want to kick then out of there because at that time night elves were still written as xenophobic.



And when they do that? they went into room to discuss things? cause i never read that piece of lore sorry



What stolen? conquered, because they attacked first, they lost the land



what a bullshit, you are talking about a race that start murdering other beings by mere trespassing without making themselves to be visible, or make visible that the land belonged to someone else

only in your dreams this race of xenophobics would enter in a consensus, Orcs were show to work fine with the native races (taurens, trolls, Goblins) when they were open to an agreement/alliance consensus., the night elves just didn't wnt to.

The same thing happened as a deja vu in wtlk after wrathgatte.

Yeaaaaah.... sure. So "xenophobic". Thats why they agreed to a trade deal and a peace treaty and also started the largest international, interracial treehugger group. Cenarion Circle was almost entirely night elves, then they started inviting anything that can do nature magic.

Horde got no land in Ashenvale in Vanilla. All they later took over in Cata was returned to night elves after MoP and currently they likely also returned the land they occupied during WoT.

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sure, Like thrall didn't do anything about because he knew it was the only thing to do.

Or because he was a notorious wimp who was perfectly fine with sitting on his butt as long as problem was not biting him in said butt. Or how he promoted Garrosh despite both Vol'Jin and Cairne being against it.

He always held Warsong in too much regard, because of his feeling of "debt" towards Grommash.

[Syegfryed]

Yeaaaaah.... sure. So "xenophobic". Thats why they agreed to a trade deal and a peace treaty

That also was immediately broked because they could not stand the orcs there, two blodly times

and also started the largest international, interracial treehugger group. Cenarion Circle was almost entirely night elves, then they started inviting anything that can do nature magic.

ah yeah dude, just like the orcs started the earthen ring, of course they creating a neutral group explain everything and took all the blame from then

Horde got no land in Ashenvale in Vanilla. All they later took over in Cata was returned to night elves after MoP and currently they likely also returned the land they occupied during WoT.

Horde got the part that the warsong had conquered back in wc3, at the edge of the forest, and to my awareness, that place was never "returned to the night elves", not even now.

Or because he was a notorious wimp who was perfectly fine with sitting on his butt as long as problem was not biting him in said butt. Or how he promoted Garrosh despite both Vol'Jin and Cairne being against it.

Now he was a wimp? so i can just say he disapproved the warsong attacking the night elves back because he was a wimp,? woaw, thanks

like, that is on brand with thrall actions, getting attacked by alliance and do nothing about it and "disapprove" if you strike back

[VladlTutushkin]

That also was immediately broked because they could not stand the orcs there, two blodly times



ah yeah dude, just like the orcs started the earthen ring, of course they creating a neutral group explain everything and took all the blame from then



Horde got the part that the warsong had conquered back in wc3, at the edge of the forest, and to my awareness, that place was never "returned to the night elves", not even now.



Now he was a wimp? so i can just say he disapproved the warsong attacking the night elves back because he was a wimp,? woaw, thanks

like, that is on brand with thrall actions, getting attacked by alliance and do nothing about it and "disapprove" if you strike back

You walk in circles. They agreed on a trade deal, not on Warsong running around in Ashenvale.

And no, there were no "parts" of it. During Cata they got "parts", before that it wasnt a deal.

And Thrall is notorious for his strange obsession with "Hellscream's legacy", those being Warsong and Garrosh, both of which he tried to elevate much higher then they deserved and against the better judgement. Even against Garroshe's own protests since he just wanted to "make it up" for Grommash by making his kid a Warchief even though he wasnt ready.

[baskev]

I understand your point.
What you don't get is that even with evidence there is no way it can scale that much. The problem is not that Sylvanas started a war or that he tried to conquer the Kaldorei. That's normal.
Because it is more assumed that the Alliance if he did things to start a war, Genn in essence starts the war in legion. Another thing is that Blizzard ignored them to make Sylvanas 100% bad.

The problem is that I aimed catapults at civilians who had surrendered. I shot them and killed them all and no one said anything.

tank god you finnaly understand. ( i hope) lets keep reading.
Ohhh wait, nevermind.

Did i ever say it could scale enough to make teldrassil right? NOPE. I mean, a better excuse to start a war. A way better then they had now ( mining azurite ). Never said it should be on the same level as. Hell think if the horde knew teldrassil burning upfront they would not do it. So a couple of alliance attacks, maybe a city or hospital burned ( could be real alliance attacks, or just staged ones by sylvannas).

And she did not do it to conquer them. She has been working for the jailor since WotlK. She did it to start a war that poored even more souls into the shadowlands. Because after argus boss fight ( most likely the cause of the arbiters blue screen). All the souls went to zovaal ( jailor).

And no Genn did not start it in legion. If you are talking about stormheim. If you pick any start point in legion it would be the battle that cost vol'jin and varians life.
But the real start was mining the azurite for power. After that alliance went with a fleet to silithus to stop that. And then horde attacked night elves.

Euuuuhhh nope, thats why they give sylvannas blue eyes, make it seem she was not completly in control. Otherwise we would have killed her in the raid. And she was 100% bad before that ( as far was we knew). She was working for the jailor all along...you know the jailor the big bad of this expansion?

So again you are missing so many things, and filling in blanks that are not there.