Night Elf Lands Blocked to Horde

[VladlTutushkin]

I was a victim when Silvermoon was raised, but Blood Elves put their big boy pants on and struggled through, even taking down the "beloved" Prince.

Maybe night elves need to do the same...hell, that's what the Void Elves do. It's probably why Void Elves are the better Alliance Elves.

Night elves do that all the time.

Problem is that Blizz always cuts then just short of the goal.

But again, they retaken Ashenvale after Cata.

However here is the gist - night elves cant take down the Horde like blood elves took down Kael, because Horde is a playable faction.

Thats why you are untouchable.

[DatToffer]

I was a victim when Silvermoon was raised, but Blood Elves put their big boy pants on and struggled through, even taking down the "beloved" Prince.

Maybe night elves need to do the same...hell, that's what the Void Elves do. It's probably why Void Elves are the better Alliance Elves.

Night elves do that all the time.

Problem is that Blizz always cuts then just short of the goal.

But again, they retaken Ashenvale after Cata.

However here is the gist - night elves cant take down the Horde like blood elves took down Kael, because Horde is a playable faction.

Thats why you are untouchable.

I'm not sure it's really healthy for you guys to be roleplaying your characters in those debates.

[ravenmoon]

Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei just work together. I'm sorry you hate it, but it's been 3 and a half years.

Tani, they work very well together.. But then any group can be written to do so.

People of the same race work well together and sometimes don't work together at all.. look at high elves against blood elves.. look at blood elves against void elves.

Fans on both side didn't want the Nightborne to remain neutral because they'd be forgotten like all neutral characters are. So Blizzard made a choice and they gave the night elf model to the Horde and the blood elf model to the Alliance.

No, we didn't want the race to be neutral, but both factions could have had a role in it..

Spoiler: 

even though it's a night elf story and night elf world. Just because it's incredible, doesn't mean the horde has to have a slice of it.. it's night elf stuff and they gave night elves to the alliance, why should alliance fans share it with the horde.. did they share the lovely stuff they did for the high elves with the alliance players in wow ? no.

yet, at the end of the day, if blizzard wants night elves to have a part in both factions, they have perfect right to do so. If you ask me, night elves shouldn't have been in the alliance anyway, but their own faction, and Nightborne should 've been part of that.. but they chose to do two factions and cut everyone to the horde and alliance.. their choice.. I think wow 's story and progression has been less for it, but hey they are the show runners they've made some great decisions, and some bad ones.. many I've liked, but quite a few I haven't.. which is a shame because every iteration of story in the RTS was loved by me more than the previous... so dunno how they started to start doing things that made a lot of people unhappy about the story.

But when you take the stuff night elf fans have been waiting for and give the best of it to the horde, after all the favouritism you would given them, including high elves, it felt like a kick in the teeth. And like it as you may, it sucked for us.

For me, the fairest compromise to have done was to give the horde the Nightborne model, and keep Suramar night elven. Some of those night elves joined the alliance, but didn't necessarily need the whole city to turn blue, but, just not red. That was the kick, that was the bias. That was the dig. The night elf origin city, given tot he horde and it didn't need to

But I don't think I have faith in your capacity to understand why this felt like a betrayal to night elf fans and alliance fans. When you divide your community along faction lines in such a way, and you do something like this, you create the bad feeling, resentment and hate you get for it. And as a developer, if you don't care, it shows how biased and callous you are and you don't even realise it.

I know Tanaria won't read the collpased bit, he will blanket snip quote and ignore everything, but i'm writing it for other sane people to read and appreciate and see how other people feel.

[Tanaria]

I'm not sure it's really healthy for you guys to be roleplaying your characters in those debates.

He did it more than I did. I'd hope he wasn't actually calling me an "r-tard" because that does warrant a suspension and I'd like to think it was done through a RP stance.

Tani, they work very well together.. But then any group can be written to do so.

People of the same race work well together and sometimes don't work together at all.. look at high elves against blood elves.. look at blood elves against void elves.






No, we didn't want the race to be neutral, but both factions could have had a role in it.. even though it's a night elf story and night elf world. Just because it's incredible, doesn't mean the horde has to have a slice of it.. it's night elf stuff and they gave night elves to the alliance, why should alliance fans share it with the horde.. did they share the lovely stuff they did for the high elves with the alliance players in wow ? no.

yet, at the end of the day, if blizzard wants night elves to have a part in both factions, they have perfect right to do so. If you ask me, night elves shouldn't have been in the alliance anyway, but their own faction, and Nightborne should 've been part of that.. but they chose to do two factions and cut everyone to the horde and alliance.. their choice.. I think wow 's story and progression has been less for it, but hey they are the show runners they've made some great decisions, and some bad ones.. many I've liked, but quite a few I haven't.. which is a shame because every iteration of story in the RTS was loved by me more than the previous... so dunno how they started to start doing things that made a lot of people unhappy about the story.

But when you take the stuff night elf fans have been waiting for and give the best of it to the horde, after all the favouritism you would given them, including high elves, it felt like a kick in the teeth. And like it as you may, it sucked for us.

For me, the fairest compromise to have done was to give the horde the Nightborne model, and keep Suramar night elven. Some of those night elves joined the alliance, but didn't necessarily need the whole city to turn blue, but, just not red. That was the kick, that was the bias. That was the dig. The night elf origin city, given tot he horde and it didn't need to

But I don't think I have faith in your capacity to understand why this felt like a betrayal to night elf fans and alliance fans. When you divide your community along faction lines in such a way, and you do something like this, you create the bad feeling, resentment and hate you get for it. And as a developer, if you don't care, it shows how biased and callous you are and you don't even realise it.

Suramar is not "Horde" in game and it never will be.

The city doesn't function like Orgrimmar. Literally all the Horde players have is a small part of the Nighthold and half of Silvermoon.

Before Darnassus burned, Alliance players had a whole elf city.

Now Alliance has no elf city (which will probably change in the next expansion) and the Horde have half an elf city, with bad graphics.

[ravenmoon]

Congratulations, you've just described the Night Elves in WoW.



Correct - we should have had Night Elf incursions into Suramar, where they were stealing artifacts from the residents and in some cases, murdering people, so Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei unite.

Have it echo a part of how the Blood Elves joined the Horde.

Which shows you how out of touch them allying the Nightborne fully with the blood elves were after writing all that stuff.

It's so obvious the nightborne weren't initially written for the blood elves, they weren't a night elven group designed and written to join the blood elves at all. But they were changed after their initial story was done, including most of 7.1, which is why 7.1's modified Tryande dialogue text is such a weak excuse for them siding with the blood elves in the light of everything else that happens before and after during 7.0 and 7.1

As you said, if joining the blood elves was the original intention, then it would have been the night elves invading Suramar and stealing artifacts, not the blood elves. . This is all part of the reason that the whole affair was handled shoddily. All of Suramar should never have been written to side with the horde, and the horde didn't need it to have Nightborne. They could have had nightborne without Suramar and the Nightfallen.

Nightfallen should have gone alliance ( healed to night elves), whiles Nightborne gone horde, e

[Tanaria]

Which shows you how out of touch them allying the Nightborne fully with the blood elves were after writing all that stuff.

It's so obvious the nightborne weren't initially written for the blood elves, they weren't a night elven group designed and written to join the blood elves at all. But they were changed after their initial story was done, including most of 7.1, which is why 7.1's modified Tryande dialogue text is such a weak excuse for them siding with the blood elves in the light of everything else that happens before and after during 7.0 and 7.1

As you said, if joining the blood elves was the original intention, then it would have been the night elves invading Suramar and stealing artifacts, not the blood elves. . This is all part of the reason that the whole affair was handled shoddily. All of Suramar should never have been written to side with the horde, and the horde didn't need it to have Nightborne. They could have had nightborne without Suramar and the Nightfallen.

Nightfallen should have gone alliance ( healed to night elves), whiles Nightborne gone horde, e

Nightfallen go Alliance (and to Hyjal.)
Nightborne remain in Suramar with Thalyssra as their lead.

So you'd get your Arcane-tattoo Night Elves in Shadowlands and your just playing a waiting game until you can get to Hyjal where it can become a paradise of Druidism and Arcane. You'd probably get a returned Farondis as their leader.

The phased Nighthold remains as it is, for Horde players and Silvermoon would be the waiting game update for Horde players.

[ravenmoon]

Nightfallen go Alliance (and to Hyjal.)
Nightborne remain in Suramar with Thalyssra as their lead.

So you'd get your Arcane-tattoo Night Elves in Shadowlands and your just playing a waiting game until you can get to Hyjal where it can become a paradise of Druidism and Arcane. You'd probably get a returned Farondis as their leader.

The phased Nighthold remains as it is, for Horde players and Silvermoon would be the waiting game update for Horde players.

That actually ignores what night elf fans who are the alliance side want. And spits on them.. . read what I write below. you need to understand what alliance fans who support night elves wanted out of the whole affair, and why it is problematic the way they did it. Only horde elf fans were happy with Nightborne and Suramar going horde. This is not a good thing.

It is also why night fallen losing their origin city, just like the Darnassians did after winning the war feels like an injustice and cruel. to have it return, but deny them it again. No alliance night elf fan will be happy about that or happy about it going to the horde that blizzard creates as their enemy.

this is what they have to fix.. read what I wrote above/below

- - - Updated - - -

He did it more than I did. I'd hope he wasn't actually calling me an "r-tard" because that does warrant a suspension and I'd like to think it was done through a RP stance.



Suramar is not "Horde" in game and it never will be.

The city doesn't function like Orgrimmar. Literally all the Horde players have is a small part of the Nighthold and half of Silvermoon.

Before Darnassus burned, Alliance players had a whole elf city.

Now Alliance has no elf city (which will probably change in the next expansion) and the Horde have half an elf city, with bad graphics.

While I feel the way they handled the nightborne with the horde was favouritism and a bad decision.. it is something that could be turned into a good thing.

A night elf group on the horde could be extremely positive for night elves overall if handled the right way. But so far, they've done nothing about it sadly. The Nightborne and Suramar is such a boost to night elf lore, so much can be done to further the kaldorei story, regardless if Nightborne sit on the horde or not.

They just have to write it that way.. and there are ways it can work well even with Nightborne friendly with the blood elves and on the horde.

It is the Darnassian origin city, they should not just sever it completely from the kaldorei and have no involvement but instead actually the opposite, have heavy involvement and interaction , make it continue to feel part of the night elf story , in spite of being in the horde. And they don't have to diminish the blood elf friendship with the Nightborne because of it either. That can continue and still be strong while creating interesting scenarios and interactions which don't have to be exclusively hostile.. but can sometimes be hostile but also sometimes bring surprising elements of getting along from both sides... like Suramar begins to heal the rift between the two faction aligned elven groups (namely Darnassians and Thalassians through Shalassians.

But you gotta wanna care about doing it right, doing it right by both fans and healing this decision. You have to be willing to want to make it good for both sides given what the situation is in way both fans would be happy.

Blood elf fans don't want to lose the Nightborne or that friendship, Night elf fans want their history to feel a part of their group, race and development and not simply be claimed as "horde property" who'd been set up as their enemies.. it's not hard to find a clever and good way to make it work.. it's already in the story.. just a little bit of creativity and willingness.

But I really don't think those guys at blizz care.. They do great work, wreck it on whimsical moves like that, and are off to the next continent not fixing the wrecking balls fans still remember and grieve over.

[Tanaria]

While I feel the way they handled the nightborne with the horde was favouritism and a bad decision.. it is something that could be turned into a good thing.

A night elf group on the horde coudl be extremely positive for night elves overall if handled the right way. But so far, they've done nothing about it sadly. The Nightborne and Suramar is such a boost to night elf lore, so much can be done to further the kaldorei story, regardless if Nightborne sit on the horde or not.

They just have to write it that way.. and there are ways it can work well even with Nightborne friendly with the blood elves and on the horde.

It is the Darnassian origin city, they should not just sever it completely from the kaldorei and have no involvement but instead actually the opposite, have heavy involvement and interaction , make it continue to feel part of the night elf story , in spite of being in the horde. And they don't have to diminish the blood elf friendship with the Nightborne because of it either. That can continue and still be strong while creating interesting scenarios and interactions which don't have to be exclusively hostile.. but can sometimes be hostile but also sometimes bring surprising elements of getting along from both sides... like Suramar begins to heal the rift between the two faction aligned elven groups (namely Darnassians and Thalassians through Shalassians.

But you gotta wanna care about doing it right, doing it right by both fans and healing this decision. You have to be willing to want to make it good for both sides given what the situation is in way both fans would be happy.

Blood elf fans don't want to lose the Nightborne or that friendship, Night elf fans want their history to feel a part of their group, race and development and not simply be claimed as "horde property" who'd been set up as their enemies.. it's not hard to find a clever and good way to make it work.. it's already in the story.. just a little bit of creativity and willingness.

But I really don't think those guys at blizz care.. They do great work, wreck it on whimsical moves like that, and are off to the next continent not fixing the wrecking balls fans still remember and grieve over.

- - - Updated - - -


THat actually ignores what night elf fans who are the alliance side want. And spits on them.. . read what I write below. you need to understaand what alliance fans who suppot night elves wanted out of the whole affair, and why it is prooblemeatic the way they did it. Only horde elf fans were happy with nightborne and surmaar going horde. This is not a good thing.

It is also why night fallen losing their origin city, just like the daranssians did after winnign the war feels liek an injustice and cruel. to have it return, but deny them it again. No alliance night elf fan will be happy about that or happy about it going to the horde that blizzard creates as their enemy.

this is what they have to fix.. read what I wrote above/bleow

They've done nothing for it because they thrust Sylvanas, Anduin and Jaina down our throats.
After them, it's Thrall, Baine and Tyrande.

I'm a big advocate for smaller characters, with smaller stories that are relatable and the above 6 or written out of the next expansion.

So, for Blood Elves and Nightborne, maybe have Rommath and Valtrois interact. They both carry a degree of arrogance and whilst the former is more serious, the latter is more humorous.
Bring in Scout Captain Elsia again.
Bring in Victorie of the Duskwatch.

That actually ignores what night elf fans who are the alliance side want. And spits on them.. . read what I write below. you need to understand what alliance fans who support night elves wanted out of the whole affair, and why it is problematic the way they did it. Only horde elf fans were happy with Nightborne and Suramar going horde. This is not a good thing.

It is also why night fallen losing their origin city, just like the Darnassians did after winning the war feels like an injustice and cruel. to have it return, but deny them it again. No alliance night elf fan will be happy about that or happy about it going to the horde that blizzard creates as their enemy.

this is what they have to fix.. read what I wrote above/below

But Night elf fans are not the only important ones in this argument.
That is something that alliance night elf fans need to understand.

It's equally a slap in the face if they all went Alliance or the Horde ones lost their city, despite Liadrin actually aiming to cleanse Suramar and help the Nightborne recover their city.

EDIT:
Now, you could swap and your Alliance can have the Nighthold and the Nightborne build their own more lavish city elsewhere, but don't come screaming at us that you only get the Nighthold whilst the Horde get a new Nightborne city and you deem it "better" than what you've got.

Or you have it so the Horde only gets the Nighthold and the Alliance builds elsewhere.

[DatToffer]

Why is it so hard for NE players to see that Tyrande being a bitch to Thalysra was just a plot device to push the nightborne into the Horde because they wanted to elaborate on the topic of mana addiction, give the Horde more beautiful elves, have the nightborne be warlocks and ship Thalysra and Bob ?

[Tanaria]

Why is it so hard for NE players to see that Tyrande being a bitch to Thalysra was just a plot device to push the nightborne into the Horde because they wanted to elaborate on the topic of mana addiction, give the Horde more beautiful elves, have the nightborne be warlocks and ship Thalysra and Bob ?

"More beautiful."

Have you seen the Nightborne models?

Hell, Zandalari are more popular than Nightborne.

[DatToffer]

Fair enough, lol

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Why is it so hard for NE players to see that Tyrande being a bitch to Thalysra was just a plot device to push the nightborne into the Horde because they wanted to elaborate on the topic of mana addiction, give the Horde more beautiful elves, have the nightborne be warlocks and ship Thalysra and Bob ?

It's not hard to see that it was just to push the Nightborne in the Horde, it's just doesn't change the fact that it was so cringeworthy and comically written and done.

[DatToffer]

It's not hard to see that it was just to push the Nightborne in the Horde, it's just doesn't change the fact that it was so cringeworthy and comically written and done.

True, I had the same opinion when it happened. But considering what it brought us, the points I mentioned, I think it's things we couldn't have had if they went to the Alliance.

[Tanaria]

True, I had the same opinion when it happened. But considering what it brought us, the points I mentioned, I think it's things we couldn't have had if they went to the Alliance.

"Human Potential!" is what they could have had in the Alliance.

I'm personally glad they dodged that bullet, but that's just me.

[DatToffer]

"Human Potential!" is what they could have had in the Alliance.

I'm personally glad they dodged that bullet, but that's just me.

I see what you mean and I agree they dodged a massive bullet.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

True, I had the same opinion when it happened. But considering what it brought us, the points I mentioned, I think it's things we couldn't have had if they went to the Alliance.

It could have possibly still happened if the writing team knew how to better exploit and write the Alliance races outside of humans (and even humans aren't spared with nearly everything being centered around Anduin and Jaina while other stormwindian characters and the other kingdoms are badly used or neglected) but then again we know the quality and tendencies of current writing team.

[Combatbutler]

I played both and i think horde one was much, much better.

This I simply cannot grasp, they are both so god damn shitty for different reason.

[DatToffer]

It could have possibly still happened if the writing team knew how to better exploit and write the Alliance races outside of humans (and even humans aren't spared with nearly everything being centered around Anduin and Jaina while other stormwindian characters and the other kingdoms are badly used or neglected) but then again we know the quality of current writing team.

Yeah although I don't know what narrative they could have brought, except for a remake of «NE reconnecting with their magic heritage» but with guys who actually look the part.

Also I'm pretty sure that there are people who still consider Dalaran to be pretty Alliance oriented, so it's nice for the Horde to have their own city of OP mages who got out of a their bubble.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Yeah although I don't know what narrative they could have brought, except for a remake of «NE reconnecting with their magic heritage» but with guys who actually look the part.

Also I'm pretty sure that there are people who still consider Dalaran to be pretty Alliance oriented, so it's nice for the Horde to have their own city of OP mages who got out of a their bubble.

That could have been interesting to be honnest, Highborne aren't very numerous and Suramar, along with Val'sharah, is actually an important place in Night Elf's culture and history, as well as Tyrand the Stormrage twins' birthplace. Also Nightborne could have found or reconnected with other values that they had lost too during their very long isolation, and they may incarnate what NE society could have become if they had chosen to keep focusing on arcane magic instead of reconnecting with nature and Elune after the War of the Ancients.

Though I agree that it would have recquired a really good writer and storyline to be really exploited.

[DatToffer]

That could have been interesting to be honnest, Highborne aren't very numerous and Suramar, along with Val'sharah, is actually an important place in Night Elf's culture and history, as well as Tyrand the Stormrage twins' birthplace. Also Nightborne could have found or reconnected with other values that they had lost too during their very long isolation, and they may incarnate what NE society could have become if they had chosen to keep focusing on arcane magic instead of reconnecting with nature and Elune after the War of the Ancients.

Though I agree that it would have recquired a really good writer and storyline to be really exploited.

Agreed, good writing could make a similar story feel less redundant.