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  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    GhostCrawler on that Blizzcon answer 10y ago:

    https://www.wowhead.com/news/ghostcr...lizzcon-323549
    Unpopular opinion, but I don't think there was anything wrong with the original response other than a matter of being tactless and untasteful at the time. I don't see this as a matter of discrimination at all, considering they are the designers of the game and they pick and choose what the females in the game look like. I don't think there's anything really to apologize for in terms of an actual stance.

    Was the answer tasteless and creepy? Yeah, of course. But it's not what I consider a step in the direction of harassment or 'frat boy culture' as pertains to the lawsuit. I believe bad jokes and bad responses can be differentiated from sexually deviant behaviour. I personally do not evaluate this to being to the level of a rape joke, cube crawl or any type of actual deviant behaviour, to me it's a bunch of jokes in bad taste and that's about it.

    Overall though, I am happy to see GC owning up to it and still giving a response regardless, only that I don't think it is particularly damning to say the least. I don't see that particular event being any more than simply being cringeworthy response material.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  2. #602
    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    Well, I do take responsibility for everything I say on the internet and everything I've said on this thread I stand 100% behind. Simple as that. Bliz deserves to be raked over the coals and their responses aren't going to do them any favors. Their own people are calling them out for it right now as much as we are on mmo champion. Their own people. Metzen has publicly said that Afriasabi's behavior was reprehensible.
    Metzen also appointed him as his successor. He is trying to coves his new product, nothing else.

    Some thrall - garrosh vibes ;P

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Unpopular opinion, but I don't think there was anything wrong with the original response other than a matter of being tactless and untasteful at the time. I don't see this as a matter of discrimination at all, considering they are the designers of the game and they pick and choose what the females in the game look like. I don't think there's anything really to apologize for in terms of an actual stance.

    Was the answer tasteless and creepy? Yeah, of course. But it's not what I consider a step in the direction of harassment or 'frat boy culture' as pertains to the lawsuit. I believe bad jokes and bad responses can be differentiated from sexually deviant behaviour. I personally do not evaluate this to being to the level of a rape joke, cube crawl or any type of actual deviant behaviour, to me it's a bunch of jokes in bad taste and that's about it.

    Overall though, I am happy to see GC owning up to it and still giving a response regardless, only that I don't think it is particularly damning to say the least. I don't see that particular event being any more than simply being cringeworthy response material.
    It's not wrong in the legal sense but it is wrong in terms of how they seem to view their female audience and in terms of what it reflects about how they view women npcs/players imo. Personally I never got the whole 'every npc needs to be a blood elf in a bikini' mindset. That's just me speaking as a man in his 40's who may outgrew that way of thinking 20 years ago. I feel like a lot of the men who worked for Bliz and who were speaking for them at Blizzcons never outgrew that early 20's mentality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Metzen also appointed him as his successor. He is trying to coves his new product, nothing else.

    Some thrall - garrosh vibes ;P
    That may be true. You still have both former employees and current employees saying some pretty harsh stuff about the company though. Which says a lot imo. Obviously including women as well.

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    It's not wrong in the legal sense but it is wrong in terms of how they seem to view their female audience and in terms of what it reflects about how they view women npcs/players imo. Personally I never got the whole 'every npc needs to be a blood elf in a bikini' mindset. That's just me speaking as a man in his 40's who may outgrew that way of thinking 20 years ago. I feel like a lot of the men who worked for Bliz and who were speaking for them at Blizzcons never outgrew that early 20's mentality.
    Well, that's hard to really differentiate as 'frat boy culture', because yes, admittedly there was plenty of immaturity all around in the dev team.

    I agree that they're a bit tone deaf and immature, but my point is that the article in question was pointing out specific discrimination, while my view on this is that they are not particularly discriminating women here, more that they're just being dumbasses mocking fans for the sake of mocking fans. And we actually see this being fairly common when faced with *any* question they don't particularly feel like answering legitimately.

    Of course I'm not saying it's a good response or a good way of handling PR, but more that we can't pinpoint this as being discrimination on the basis of it literally being a cherry picked statement and an example of bad behaviour that has been isolated and taken out of context of how they usually tend to reply 'immaturely' to other fans. We can definitely say they were immature and not very tactful, I simply wouldn't go as far as equating this as particularly discriminating. The response itself of wanting Sylvanas to look like how she does and not change her is still a creative decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Well, that's hard to really differentiate as 'frat boy culture', because yes, admittedly there was plenty of immaturity all around in the dev team.

    I agree that they're a bit tone deaf and immature, but my point is that the article in question was pointing out specific discrimination, while my view on this is that they are not particularly discriminating women here, more that they're just being dumbasses mocking fans for the sake of mocking fans. And we actually see this being fairly common when faced with *any* question they don't particularly feel like answering legitimately.

    Of course I'm not saying it's a good response or a good way of handling PR, but more that we can't pinpoint this as being discrimination on the basis of it literally being a cherry picked statement and an example of bad behaviour that has been isolated and taken out of context of how they usually tend to reply 'immaturely' to other fans. We can definitely say they were immature and not very tactful, I simply wouldn't go as far as equating this as particularly discriminating. The response itself of wanting Sylvanas to look like how she does and not change her is still a creative decision.
    I agree with that. Its just an example of them being somewhat tonedeaf as you say and not really seeming to understand why women were asking these kinds of questions.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    Yea, you do take it behind anonymous account without any personal info, sure. I mean that responsibility should be used such way, that you will think twice before jumping on that hype 'burn em all' train with all the mob already there, and at least will think of 'innocent until proven guilty' principle. And mind you, state investigation =/= court verdict, not yet.
    Hell, that's even *if* we get to a court verdict.

    Chances are this will all be settled out of court, so we won't be able to really validate any of the evidence.

    Blizzard is going to do all in their power to prevent any 'truth' from getting out into the public eye.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Hell, that's even *if* we get to a court verdict.

    Chances are this will all be settled out of court, so we won't be able to really validate any of the evidence.

    Blizzard is going to do all in their power to prevent any 'truth' from getting out into the public eye.
    It'll be a really tricky one to settle out of court, because they can't play the 'we have more money to drag this through the levels' card.

    The State of California will see this is a big statement case to contest, so time will tell how it rolls out.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    It'll be a really tricky one to settle out of court, because they can't play the 'we have more money to drag this through the levels' card.

    The State of California will see this is a big statement case to contest, so time will tell how it rolls out.
    Not tricky. They just pay whatever is being asked and put try to it behind them as quickly as possible. The bigger issue right now is their own employees calling them out and telling them their public response was terrible.

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    There isn't much more to say other than he's a failed CEO and carries that failure with him to Dreamhaven.
    He's a pretty successful CEO, he built a multi billion dollar company. But hey, let's cancel him and his new studio.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    Not tricky. They just pay whatever is being asked and put try to it behind them as quickly as possible. The bigger issue right now is their own employees calling them out and telling them their public response was terrible.
    Could be one of the routes. Will be a fuck load of money to pay out at that juncture. It'll be a huge scalp for the State Attorneys.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    Could be one of the routes. Will be a fuck load of money to pay out at that juncture. It'll be a huge scalp for the State Attorneys.
    Not sure it will be that much for Bliz. Has an amount actually been named yet?

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    It'll be a really tricky one to settle out of court, because they can't play the 'we have more money to drag this through the levels' card.

    The State of California will see this is a big statement case to contest, so time will tell how it rolls out.
    It's all about money. So yes, they can lose a shit ton of money, at the cost of keeping everything quiet, as they always have. The alternative is arguably worse, and their brand damaged further by not only admission of guilt, but knowingly lying to the public with PR statements of deniability. It's arguably the worse case scenario.

    Settlement out of court is going to be the way it's likely going to be handled in any case where-they-don't-come-out-on-top.

    At best, they spin the whole situation as being something in the past, and how they're 'forging a new path of diversity and inclusion' in the future, yadda yadda.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    Not sure it will be that much for Bliz. Has an amount actually been named yet?
    Nope, but given the amount of witnesses they're going to be bringing in, it'll be an interesting one for sure.

  14. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by Sentynel View Post
    He's a pretty successful CEO, he built a multi billion dollar company. But hey, let's cancel him and his new studio.
    I'm as against cancel culture as anyone but there's also a point where people say '**** this guy or **** this company' and stop buying what they are selling which I've done with a few companies over the years. Cancel culture to me is more when someone says something people don't like and so try to get them fired or kept from getting a new job. Things like fostering highly toxic work environments over decades is kind of a different thing imo. For some people that is enough to say 'I'm not supporting them anymore'.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    It's all about money. So yes, they can lose a shit ton of money, at the cost of keeping everything quiet, as they always have. The alternative is arguably worse, and their brand damaged further by not only admission of guilt, but knowingly lying to the public with PR statements of deniability. It's arguably the worse case scenario.

    Settlement out of court is going to be the way it's likely going to be handled in any case where-they-don't-come-out-on-top.

    At best, they spin the whole situation as being something in the past, and how they're 'forging a new path of diversity and inclusion' in the future, yadda yadda.
    I agree. 'We hear you, we recognise you (we will forget about you in 6 months!)'

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    I'm as against cancel culture as anyone but there's also a point where people say '**** this guy or **** this company' and stop buying what they are selling which I've done with a few companies over the years. Cancel culture to me is more when someone says something people don't like and so try to get them fired or kept from getting a new job. Things like fostering highly toxic work environments over decades is kind of a different thing imo. For some people that is enough to say 'I'm not supporting them anymore'.
    Completely agree here, and I find myself in this very boat.


    I've never really contributed to any boycott against Blizzard when they decidedly make poor business choices. That's really up to how they handle their business, whether it's banning players or announcing a game people aren't asking for or pushing out some unfinished shitty release. That's all shitty business practice, but it's still business, and I don't see them particularly being *wrong* in making those choices, albeit as bad ones. I can still enjoy the other products.

    But knowing what we do now of the people involved and the potential criminality of the scandals involved... it sours my enjoyment of their product in a way that I have never been faced with before. And to know that this stuff was going on for years after the fact it had been known by so many people... Jesus. There's literally a line to be drawn in the sand, and this crosses that line. There's no excuse for that level of unfair treatment and abuse of their employees. I am the few who legitimately own Reforged despite knowing the absolutely shit state the game is in, and I refunded it as I do not find any personal enjoyment of the game any more due to recent events (which includes the Bloomberg article about Reforged).

    The only solice I take in this is knowing that plenty of the content creators I follow had already made moves towards migrating to other games.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    Already have, deleted everything off my harddrive, even my older games like SC2. I won't ever give them another dime. Canceled D2R preorder and won't be playing D4. I actually put my money where my mouth is.

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    You use respect when you feel it fits your little viewpoint. I'd expect nothing less from someone who proudly uses Jinpachi as a role-model. Same as someone using Dexter. You see someone strong, unlike yourself, and want people online to view you that way and spout ignorant claims and opinions then backtrack meanings and definitions you yourself used a few posts up.

    Go troll somewhere else, little man.
    that post was full of projection. 2/10 for trying. Words aren't violence, you don't have to be threatened by them.

  18. #618
    Stood in the Fire Muxtar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Hell, that's even *if* we get to a court verdict.

    Chances are this will all be settled out of court, so we won't be able to really validate any of the evidence.

    Blizzard is going to do all in their power to prevent any 'truth' from getting out into the public eye.
    Well, that is real possibility, knowing how this stuff usually is figured out. And it is shame, but this is how real world works.
    As for me, I tend to think that there indeed were numerous cases of mistreatment of women in Blizzard, because way too much people have spoken up, and you can't make up all these stories with names in them. But still I won't jump to conclusions like most of the mob that all accusations are true by default and all persons in question are guilty by default as well.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    I wouldn't think twice about anything I've said even if my name and picture were being used on this thread. That's the way I am. We as people get to comment on everything going on in the world and I'm not calling for people to be put in jail. All that I've said so far is that Bliz has a serious problem with it's work environment and that if they are smart they will fire Brack and most of the other top brass. Look at what current employees are saying.
    Well, this is where I agree with you.
    As for Brack, as far as I understood, that initial response was from Activision lawyers, not the Brack himself. I personally see him as honest guy, just not competent enough to hold such important position, especially in such difficult times.
    But hey, speaking about that Activision response - every defendant has right to deny accusations, and to not run with hands held high yelling 'I'm guilty!'. So I don't get all that hate towards Activision response. Surely there is problem inside the company, but at the same time they don't have to bow down to DFEH and accept all that they are accused of.
    Last edited by Muxtar; 2021-07-27 at 06:23 AM.

  19. #619
    Scarab Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentynel View Post
    He's a pretty successful CEO, he built a multi billion dollar company. But hey, let's cancel him and his new studio.
    Yes, he is successful. But unfortunately, as we have seen many times in AAA industry, being successfully very often also means you are scummy.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2021-07-27 at 07:53 AM.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Yes, and by the looks of it, especially (part of) the WoW team, since Afrasiabi is singled out as one of the biggest offenders.
    Yes, and even more directly it calls out Afrasiabi with the title "Senior Creative Director for WoW" so it isn't something from his Titan days.

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