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  1. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Eh, that's a bit jumping the gun.

    I'm not going to demonize Nintendo for making Breath of the Wild 2 on the basis that this is an 'industry wide problem'. We need to be careful to address problems when they are actually problems, and not just generalize the entire industry as some universally broken system.

    'One bad apple can spoil the bunch' is not intrinsically true or applicable to the entire industry.
    I mean, it is an industry where crunch, unreliable working situations, vastly disproportionate pay and apparently (sexual) harassments are the norm - and that's just the worker's side. We also got many of them preying on vulnerable people with gacha mechanics as well.
    How many scandals like this one does it take to acknowledge that there are problems in the industry in general? Yeah, one bad apple shouldn't just colour the opinion of a whole industry, but when every few months there is another controversy like this one, just saying "but the rest of them are not doing it" falls short as well. I mean, that is precisely why a lot of people now seeking to boycott actiblizz were doing so until a few weeks ago.

    At least Nintendo has already done quite a bit to show that it isn't like, say, EA. Aside from the gacha stuff they put into games aimed at kids, which I am a bit iffy on, but they seem like a responsible company to work for at least. But we only know that because they took public actions, like leadership taking paycuts and responsibility to help the workers.
    It is sad that such proof is kind of needed, but without it, then what? Boycott those who are found out and support those that manage to hide it/overlook the less egregious offenses?

  2. #622
    Over 9000! Soon-TM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Yes, he is successful. But unfortunately, as we have seen many times in AAA industry, being successfully very often also means you are scummy.
    Indeed. CDPR is a good example: they make great games (aside from the massive Cyberpunk blunder lol), but they treat their workers like utter #$&%.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomoprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiri View Post
    I mean, it is an industry where crunch, unreliable working situations, vastly disproportionate pay and apparently (sexual) harassments are the norm - and that's just the worker's side. We also got many of them preying on vulnerable people with gacha mechanics as well.
    ---
    It is sad that such proof is kind of needed, but without it, then what? Boycott those who are found out and support those that manage to hide it/overlook the less egregious offenses?
    And as I suggested, we take everything as a case by case scenario and address them as they come, not just do a blanket 'Boycott the industry/triple A games because this is happening in some of the top studios'. That it happens industry wide does not mean it is pervasive in every corner of the industry, and we need to understand the difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  4. #624
    Meh. Yes it's bad that women had to deal with this. And blizzard should rightfully be sued.

    But this, "let's cancel everything" culture isn't good for anyone. It doesn't matter whether the transgression is great or minor everyones out for blood. Ya'll are just as bad as those you're cancelling. It's hilarious you don't realize it.

    Even funnier, that you've absolutely adopted a guilty until proven innocent mindset have no ability to perceive that you've done so, and will be absolutely fine with this until it turns on you.

  5. #625
    Quote Originally Posted by Muxtar View Post
    Well, that is real possibility, knowing how this stuff usually is figured out. And it is shame, but this is how real world works.
    As for me, I tend to think that there indeed were numerous cases of mistreatment of women in Blizzard, because way too much people have spoken up, and you can't make up all these stories with names in them. But still I won't jump to conclusions like most of the mob that all accusations are true by default and all persons in question are guilty by default as well.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Well, this is where I agree with you.
    As for Brack, as far as I understood, that initial response was from Activision lawyers, not the Brack himself. I personally see him as honest guy, just not competent enough to hold such important position, especially in such difficult times.
    But hey, speaking about that Activision response - every defendant has right to deny accusations, and to not run with hands held high yelling 'I'm guilty!'. So I don't get all that hate towards Activision response. Surely there is problem inside the company, but at the same time they don't have to bow down to DFEH and accept all that they are accused of.
    I think that they(Bliz employees) are aware of what standard operating procedure is for companies accused of wrong doing but what they are saying is that that's not good enough. Many of them are likely women who have already experienced it or know someone who has and that sort of reply just doesn't cut it for them. It comes off as basically saying all of those people are lying about what they've experienced while working at Blizzard and Blizzard wanting to minimize their own culpability which means lack of acknowledging that there is a problem in the first place.
    Last edited by Berndorf; 2021-07-27 at 05:25 PM.

  6. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    I think that they(Bliz employees) are aware of what standard operating procedure is for companies accused of wrong doing but what they are saying is that that's not good enough. Many of them are likely women who have already experienced it or know someone who has and that sort of reply just doesn't cut it for them. It comes off as basically saying all of those people are lying about what they've experienced while working at Blizzard and Blizzard wanting to minimize their own culpability which means lack of acknowledging that there is a problem.
    It isn't even "minimising" in some cases. For example, that Townsend lady's letter... I can't tell if it's more disgusting than it is ridiculous, or the other way around. It basically reads as "Nothing like that can happen here because I am a woman and it hasn't happened to me! Actually, we're so perfect that nothing bad can even happen here! Now moving along!" - all of that while trying to drive the crowd away, desperately hoping that no one will notice the carfire just behind her.
    If the Janitor managed to pwn Azeroth:

    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    "Die, wold soul of *incomprehensible mumbling* with your death my plan to *incomoprehensible mumbling* finally fullfilled and *incomprehensible mumbling*!"

  7. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    It isn't even "minimising" in some cases. For example, that Townsend lady's letter... I can't tell if it's more disgusting than it is ridiculous, or the other way around. It basically reads as "Nothing like that can happen here because I am a woman and it hasn't happened to me! Actually, we're so perfect that nothing bad can even happen here! Now moving along!" - all of that while trying to drive the crowd away, desperately hoping that no one will notice the carfire just behind her.
    Even more hysterical / disgusting when it comes from a woman in an executive position with the power to fire people who would have even tried, and who has only been with the company for 4 months. Acti/Blizz leadership is comic-book-level.

  8. #628
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Meh. Yes it's bad that women had to deal with this. And blizzard should rightfully be sued.

    But this, "let's cancel everything" culture isn't good for anyone. It doesn't matter whether the transgression is great or minor everyones out for blood. Ya'll are just as bad as those you're cancelling. It's hilarious you don't realize it.

    Even funnier, that you've absolutely adopted a guilty until proven innocent mindset have no ability to perceive that you've done so, and will be absolutely fine with this until it turns on you.
    This is not an example of cancel culture. I am totally against cancel culture. Which is essentially censoring people who express opinions we don't like and trying to force them out of public view. What we are talking about here is a company which completely misran itself and allowed people with very toxic and harmful forms of behavior to run rampant through their company over a long period of time. To the point that their own former employees are admitting it and their current employees are calling Bliz out on their responses and attempts at trying to act as though this is a frivilous lawsuit. Their own company is revolting. We as consumers are perfectly within our rights to stop supporting such a company. This isn't cancel culture. This is simply standing up for your own principles if you choose to stop giving them money. This isn't a single person that people dislike and want to censor from their reality(which I don't agree with). This is telling a large corporation to get its **** together and acknowledge how badly they ran their company.

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by Berndorf View Post
    This is not an example of cancel culture. I am totally against cancel culture. Which is essentially censoring people who express opinions we don't like and trying to force them out of public view. What we are talking about here is a company which completely misran itself and allowed people with very toxic and harmful forms of behavior to run rampant through their company over a long period of time. To the point that their own former employees are admitting it and their current employees are calling Bliz out on their responses and attempts at trying to act as though this is a frivilous lawsuit. Their own company is revolting. We as consumers are perfectly within our rights to stop supporting such a company. This isn't cancel culture. This is simply standing up for your own principles if you choose to stop giving them money. This isn't a single person that people dislike and want to censor from their reality(which I don't agree with). This is telling a large corporation to get its **** together and acknowledge how badly they ran their company.
    Just as bad - because you have no way of knowing who enabled this in leadership and rank and file. Now, ALL of blizzard is being painted as a demon, when in reality it was like upper/middle management exclusively.

    Painting with a broad brush, without all of the facts, is just as bad as painting with a small brush. Granted we will have the facts after the case when evidence is presented, but until then it's absolutely speculation and hearsay.

  10. #630

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Just as bad - because you have no way of knowing who enabled this in leadership and rank and file. Now, ALL of blizzard is being painted as a demon, when in reality it was like upper/middle management exclusively.

    Painting with a broad brush, without all of the facts, is just as bad as painting with a small brush. Granted we will have the facts after the case when evidence is presented, but until then it's absolutely speculation and hearsay.
    Hardly. I'm not telling anyone to not buy what they make. I'm saying do your own research and decide for yourself. At this point I don't feel its up for debate. So if you think I'm judging them as guilty too soon big ****ing deal. I'm allowed to think for myself and decide for myself. You do you. No one is saying 'shut down Bliz, they are the devil' that I know of. They are free to implement changes and try to win the trust of their customers back. I want to see concrete changes before I buy any more of their games.

  12. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellorion View Post
    https://www.change.org/p/activision-...ard/u/29386687

    This madness needs to stop, send a message
    You really expect this to work in ANY way? Please.
    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing...

  13. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    You really expect this to work in ANY way? Please.
    Well, the link is bad so there's that.
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  14. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfcap View Post
    I worked in the gaming industry and I am quite sure I will not going back. It was smaller level than a Blizz one, but the toxicity is rampant everywhere.

    Don't get so high up with devs being evil now. You, the gamerbase has as much toxicity and harm as them. I knew a girl who was driven to suicide by another guy's action. We even have to hide our gender just to not get harassed, insulted, threatened with harm or rape, followed irl, and all those shit. Not only eggplant pics, but I got selfharm pics and such, just because I helped someone out in a quest and he got to know from a guildie that I'm a woman and he got obsessed. Could go on multiple experiences over the years.

    Regardless the immense amount of poison both layers, we are here for the dev situation atm. I had guys not doing what I asked them as a higher up, bc my gender, harassment, accusing being emotional when I called them out on their bullcrap. Rape jokes, subtle threats, touching, insults, everything.

    But here's the thing. A lot of times these harrassers:

    1. They will say they didn't do anything, bc in their eyes their rape jokes, touching, hugging woman (only the ones they are attracted to though...), asking more than one times for a date, getting around to talk to them, ignoring their discomfort, all of this and more is nothing to them. So they will tell their friends and family, that they were fired for nothing, and sjws, cancel culture, me too. Bring up the trendy words what ruined your career, never you.

    2. They will act normal and friendly with other guys or higher ups. They will never know how scummy is he, and if they are friends and "Jeff is always nice to me, bros before...", you will never get the support, no one will believe you. Just read the comments about women coming forward in a harassment case. The names they are called, they get threats, etc. False accusations are pulled up although it's so little in percentage, especially would be little if every single case would have been reported. Yes it's bad but good gods, really have to mention and trying to dismiss every case? Do you sleep better if you dismiss everything? Nevermind, tangent. The thing is that, yes a lot of others are oblivious to this. Morhaime got one letter about it, as a boss, I'm not sure how many he reads. My company had an assistant to the boss who did weeding out in the mails, but a lot of mails got ignored too.

    The harassers hide their shit well, and good actors. It's not just Blizzard, the entire industry is this shit. Oh girls don't go to stem and "man" jobs? My gods, what do you think why is that? I got denied of joining a chess club as a kid, bc "boys would be distracted", if I failed at math it was because I'm a girl, I excelled at physics, a guy must have been tutoring me, pats on the shoulder, hid my gaming hobby, I hid everything what could be taken feminine online, just to have peace.

    Do freaking better BOTH sides. You, the gamerbase, ignore everything and we need to suck it up, block them, oh you get harassment too? Haha, CoD lobby amirite. Man, you have no idea how harsher girls get, irl and online. Get a grip. I block them, they will come back with new accounts. They are not shunned or punished, not excluded, they always find groups to do this with. Report systems are horsepoop, no harsh punishment. I see the comments over girls being harassed, like we are fragile and too sensitive. Overreacting. It's dismissed everywhere.

    So get down from your high horse. You don't do better either. There's no industry where you don't find this, unless it's conventionally "feminine" job.

    Bleed out the bad blood, there are good people with them too, with genuinely no clue about it. Not an excuse, but this is now an opportunity to bleed them out and start anew.
    Had to bump your post since there's so much truth in there and that this problem is much bigger than just ActiBlizz and it exists in the whole gaming/tech sphere itself. I'm a guy myself so I don't experience this first hand, but whenever I play with my female friends they often don't want to join public voice chat because they know from experience what they might have to endure.

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