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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryom View Post
    Think about it, if this was just an unbiased choice, then why would anyone ever choose an objectively bad, irrational, negative attitude for themselves?
    Because they want to get laid but without what they see as strings attached, like romance and charm.
    You decided to go for reductive reasons and didn't go far enough. Selfishness is the core here. And if you want to blame society, then you need to look at the incel's first example he sees; how dad treats mom.
    Ultimately, personal responsibility will always be his. Because his behavior has never been deemed acceptable in society. And in that regard he made a choice to ignore that.

  2. #182
    The Lightbringer Strawberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    That's a ridiculous over simplification and all around not really true either.
    Yeah? So me and everyone else here is just going to believe your word?
    If you have nothing to come up with besides "you're wrong", then your opinion is weak and argument nonexistent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    You're the one living in a bubble. My exposure to some of the nastiest people and the fact that I could live far more comfortably if I became the same compromising my own ideals showed me what I never want to become.
    You played oh-so-safely in the gray zones that you've forgotten black and white exists.
    No. The whole system is built to give you a false impression of freedom.
    No one is free. Not even the ultra rich. They have economic freedom, but no social freedom.
    The rest of us are slaves to society. To money, to government. The society makes or breaks it. Your parents shape you. Your studies teach you skills. Your government tells you what you're allowed and not allowed to do. Your boss tells you what to do.

    All those things add to what you become. You are lucky to have freedom to choose but you are still not free. And you are shaped by events created by the society.
    Many don't have a freedom of choice. But you strongly voice an opinion that everyone does.
    That is where you're wrong and that is why you.are.living.in.a.bubble.

  3. #183
    Herald of the Titans Dangg's Avatar
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    Incels might be the most abused and marginalized group of people on the planet, yet get zero sympathy and all the blame even though their condition is rarely their fault (usually neurodiversity) because neurotypical people cant imagine what its like being unable to form connections

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
    Many don't have a freedom of choice. But you strongly voice an opinion that everyone does. That is where you're wrong and that is why you.are.living.in.a.bubble.
    Thank you for that silly shit of an opinion against accepting any personal responsibility for your actions.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    Incels might be the most abused and marginalized group of people on the planet, yet get zero sympathy and all the blame even though their condition is rarely their fault (usually neurodiversity) because neurotypical people cant imagine what its like being unable to form connections
    That's one way to out oneself I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jtbrig7390 View Post
    True, I was just bored and tired but you are correct.

    Last edited by Thwart; Today at 05:21 PM. Reason: Infracted for flaming
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    millennials were the kids of the 9/11 survivors.

  6. #186
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hollycakes View Post
    Wtf? Like you think he wouldn't have been an incel but the FBI/CIA pushed him into it? Like he was setup?
    I don't get this statement.
    Since the War on Terror, police both locals and the FBI have been in the business of entrapment set ups. This shits been going on since 9/11. In the most recent big one I can think of it was how the Gov. Whitmer Kidnapping plot it was more feds than not involved. So I'm holding off judgement till we know exactly how this "Plot" was thwarted and if this plot was actually real or an officer or undercover officers goading and plotting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post

    If you were bit by a dog as a toddler, it wasn't your fault. But hating dogs is not a justifiable response to that trauma. If you kick dogs when you see them, especially the little ones because you're less afraid they'll bite you back, you're just a shitty-ass human being, and your past trauma does not change that.
    i agree, this actually happened where i live but worse, he set the dog shelter on fire and killed maybe a hundred of them

  8. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by Hollycakes View Post
    Wtf? Like you think he wouldn't have been an incel but the FBI/CIA pushed him into it? Like he was setup?
    I don't get this statement.
    I mean it does happen a lot, but the difference is the FBI tries to get as many people set up and taken in as possible, not just one guy.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Again, we're not talking nature v. nurture, here.

    Those are about really base-level responses. Not ones involving coherent thought. Your genetics and epigenetics may largely determine your sexual orientation, but they do not contribute to making you a homophobe. Nor does growing up with homophobic parents (though it's certainly easy to adopt views your parents. That's just indoctrination and personal character.



    Humans are fundamentally irrational to begin with. They choose it for emotional reasons, for the most part.
    I was more thinking about the existence or nonexistence of free will and choice. Because whenever I really try to understand just why a person does something bad, all the reasons I can come up with are ultimately outside their control. People don't choose how they feel. They don't chose their flaws, weaknesses stupidity. You can change your character but having the motivation, strength and wisdom to do so is also not a choice.
    And saying for example incels do bad stuff because they choose to be assholes is really just answering the question with itself, it doesn't explain anything.

    If you want to prevent people from turning out like that then it's useless to just say "these guys are bad and it's their fault", you need to figure out underlying issues and negative influences and how best to address them.

    The rules of society are set by those at the top. When those at the top are abusive, that will be reflected in the laws they pass and the society that emerges. That pretty much only changes by those at the top changing their minds and reforming society over time, or the populace rejecting that rule through revolution.

    To use an analogy; not every German citizen was a Nazi. But every Nazi was a terrible person. Doesn't really matter why they supported the Reich; that they did is all we need to understand.
    The point is that good or bad people are largely created by circumstance and opportunity.
    To use your example: Nazis were terrible, yet there were millions of them in Germany, and many of them directly participated in all sorts of atrocities. Nowadays Germany is a fairly peaceful and progressive country where stuff like that seems unimaginable. But it could still happen again, because humans are capable of such behaviour, and always will be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    Incels might be the most abused and marginalized group of people on the planet, yet get zero sympathy and all the blame even though their condition is rarely their fault (usually neurodiversity) because neurotypical people cant imagine what its like being unable to form connections
    Equating people who are unable to form romantic/sexual relationships with incels is pretty offensive.

  10. #190
    Merely a Setback SensationalBanana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    Incels might be the most abused and marginalized group of people on the planet, yet get zero sympathy and all the blame even though their condition is rarely their fault (usually neurodiversity) because neurotypical people cant imagine what its like being unable to form connections
    Do you afford the same sympathy to members of ISIS? Neo-Nazis?

    No, Incels choose what they believe and how they act. Being "neurodiverse" is not a fucking greenlight to join hate groups and become a proponent for violence towards women or any other group of people.

    Incels are Incels, they identify with a hateful ideology and rhetoric. They deserve (and want) about as much sympathy as a tick.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by molliewoof View Post
    i agree, this actually happened where i live but worse, he set the dog shelter on fire and killed maybe a hundred of them
    Jesus H Christ...

    Please tell me he was caught and sentenced.
    Liberté, égalité, fraternité
    ⭑・゚゚・*:༅。.。༅:*゚:*:✼✿ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ✿✼:*゚:༅。.。༅:*・゚ ゚・⭑
    ⭑・゚゚・*:༅。.。༅:*゚:*:✼✿U´ᴥ`U✿✼:*゚:༅。.。༅:*・゚ ゚・⭑

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen of Hamsters View Post

    Please tell me he was caught and sentenced.
    as far as i remember everyone knew who it was, knew the family and it was one of those situations where the police didnt have enough evidence even though he was going around boasting about it. i dont think they live in the area now

    i was slightly off with the numbers, nearer to 60 but still ...

    i just googled it and this was the first thing that came up

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...-arson-4256849

  12. #192
    Stood in the Fire Hollycakes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    Incels might be the most abused and marginalized group of people on the planet, yet get zero sympathy and all the blame even though their condition is rarely their fault (usually neurodiversity) because neurotypical people cant imagine what its like being unable to form connections
    This is possibly the most absurd thing I've ever read.

    More than the Uyghurs in China?
    More than any women under ISIS?
    More than African Americans during slavery?
    This list could go on forever.
    There are literal children being sold for sex on the planet and you think incels have it bad?

    You need perspective, and education.

    And lol at all the "blame" being put on neurodiversity and not the individual.
    There are plenty of people on the spectrum( if this is why you brought that up) THAT DONT MURDER WOMEN UNDER THE BANNER OF INCEL.
    That excuse didn't work in the 80's when religious people tried to blame rock and roll for stuff either seeing as millions of other people also listen to rock and didn't satan worship etc. and any of the other times it's been tried either.

    Otherwise, you could just use that term for any wrong doing on your part and claim "Sorry I killed all those women officer, it's not my fault!, I'm neurodivergent!"
    This is Peter Hitchens levels of dense.
    Creepy how many incel sympathizers are on this forum.

    Yes the world needs more mental health support and the US especially does but this take is as far from the truth as it gets.
    Your own personal animosity to something either you haven't had or can't get is entirely your own. You own it.
    That's the same as murdering bankers cause you aren't rich.


    Also, l o fucking l at people jumping to conspiracy setups by the FBI to snag an incel. A single incel. lel

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    Oddly a lot of these incels don't look terrible. Which just tells you it's because they're shit humans lol.
    This guy is hideous but Rodger was above average and would've had no issues with The Ladies™ if not for his insanity; more broadly speaking, if looks mattered when it comes to inceldom the majority of people would be incels - instead, sane people on the average/"ugly" side do manage to get into relationships, either with other average or unattractive people, and some even with people who are "out of their league" looks-wise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Levelfive View Post
    Decent mental healthcare could probably do a lot for pathologically-entitled misogynist self-pity. Worth a try, in any case.
    Not past a certain threshold, unless we're talking about locking people into institutions and pumping them full of antipsychotics and sedatives, which should probably be done when certain criticalities are detected - I wonder how whoever analyzed Rodger thought it was a good idea to just write him a prescription for alprazolam, diagnose him as "autistic" and let him go like that, without even alerting LE (if I recall correctly, he purchased the gun legally). Or perhaps LE were alerted but he somehow managed to purchase the gun legally, which would be equally absurd. TL;DR tame mental healthcare cannot prevent incidents stemming from severe mental illness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangg View Post
    Incels might be the most abused and marginalized group of people on the planet, yet get zero sympathy and all the blame even though their condition is rarely their fault (usually neurodiversity) because neurotypical people cant imagine what its like being unable to form connections
    Self-styled incels (aka proper incels) are prone to violence because they're radicalized by a warped ideology (otherwise they wouldn't call themselves incels to begin with). De facto but not self-styled "incels" (mind the quotation marks) are a whole different thing as their "neurodiversity" (such an odious term) hinders their ability to form relationships but doesn't push them towards violence, nor do they subscribe to the incel ideology. Besides, not all de facto "incels" are "neurodiverse" - it's actually safer to assume that most of those are just unattractive (not necessarily due to their looks, some might simply be socially awkward or what have you).
    Actual incels write manifestos, fuel their hateful ideology (because that's what it is) within their circles, de facto incels are just ugly or clumsy, they don't call themselves incels, they don't buy into their insane ideology, and they don't hate people for not wanting to sleep with them. I used to know one such person, he's on the spectrum and on the ugly side; he used to lament his condition rather often, but wouldn't have hurt a fly. And he vented his frustration with me because he knew I had been (and was at the time) in many a relationship. He was mostly curious as to "how it felt" and "how to do it", I didn't perceive a shred of envy or resentment towards me - hatred towards "sex-havers" and however else they call us is another hallmark of the proper incels. On this note, it's interesting to notice how incels are obsessed with the sexual aspect of relationships, whereas your average "functionally on the spectrum" or just "neurotypical virgin" ("virgin" is written without intent to offend, there's a language barrier at play here) are more interested in the emotional aspects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    But here's the problem with "nature v. nurture"; it denies personal agency. Which is what I'm pointing at.

    Nobody is born a misogynistic asshole, but nobody is turned into a misogynistic asshole by the world they live in. They choose to be misogynistic assholes. And this is an ongoing, continuous decision that they can change at any moment, if they care to.
    This logic is rather shaky if you drop misogyny and replace it with something not damning. For instance, do people who develop Stockholm syndrome choose to do so? It ties in with various forms of (mostly secondary) identification mechanisms and introjection, so my answer would be "no".
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  14. #194
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    This logic is rather shaky if you drop misogyny and replace it with something not damning. For instance, do people who develop Stockholm syndrome choose to do so? It ties in with various forms of (mostly secondary) identification mechanisms and introjection, so my answer would be "no".
    Stockholm Syndrome isn't even a recognized condition, in the first place. Most psychiatrists and researchers doubt it even meaningfully exists. https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-hum...yndrome-exist/

    Even if it does, it's presented as a rational approach to dealing with a traumatic situation, not something being done to the subject.

    I'm open to you making this case, but I don't see that Stockholm Syndrome is gonna help you in doing so.


  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Stockholm Syndrome isn't even a recognized condition, in the first place. Most psychiatrists and researchers doubt it even meaningfully exists. https://www.sciencefocus.com/the-hum...yndrome-exist/

    Even if it does, it's presented as a rational approach to dealing with a traumatic situation, not something being done to the subject.

    I'm open to you making this case, but I don't see that Stockholm Syndrome is gonna help you in doing so.
    Feel free to replace it with any defense mechanism you or others recognise. I named vast categories other than Stockholm syndrome. Idenfitications, introjections, plenty of stuff for you to pick from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  16. #196
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    Feel free to replace it with any defense mechanism you or others recognise. I named vast categories other than Stockholm syndrome. Idenfitications, introjections, plenty of stuff for you to pick from.
    Then I'm gonna respond with something I hinted at; things like that are, to my understanding, pretty much all self-defense mechanisms, not things done to you by some external trauma.

    You're also missing the point; being a misogynistic asshole is not about having some deep-seated trauma you're dealing with. It's about harming and abusing others. So comparing it to psychological self-defense issues is pretty off-base to begin with.

    Let's make up a hypothetical of a wife who's beaten and abused by her husband, and internalizes that abuse and feels she "deserves it" and thus will stay with him. They are not meant to be representative of anyone else or any group of people.

    Here, his abuse may explain why she is internalizing that abuse, harming her self-esteem and explaining why she will not help herself escape the situation.

    It does not explain why she attacks police officers when they try and arrest her husband. That's a choice and it's not a choice her her husband caused her to make.

    There is a clear distinction that can be drawn between one's victimization, and one's own attacks on others. She was a victim, yes. That does not explain nor justify her actions in attacking police.

    Same with incels; maybe they were victimized at some earlier point in their lives. Doesn't matter. Does not explain or justify their attacks on and harassment of women. And no, women not wanting to date them is not "victimizing" them, in the first place, either, and often, that's the only thing these guys point at.


  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Then I'm gonna respond with something I hinted at; things like that are, to my understanding, pretty much all self-defense mechanisms, not things done to you by some external trauma.
    I don't see where you're getting at here, defense mechanisms don't occur randomly, they're either responses to traumatic events or absorptions of observed behaviours, the point is that they do not happen consciously so there's no choice involved. This applies invariably to primitive/immature defense mechanisms which is what we're using as examples, it doesn't apply to mature/virtuous ones (such as humour), and it'd be pointless to discuss those for obvious reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're also missing the point; being a misogynistic asshole is not about having some deep-seated trauma you're dealing with. It's about harming and abusing others. So comparing it to psychological self-defense issues is pretty off-base to begin with.
    Yeah, no. As much as one might want to oversimplify such an odious issue, oversimplification really leads nowhere. A plethora of studies (e.g. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0157805) suggest a strong link between parenthood (among other factors) and one's predisposition towards sexism. Parenthood during developmental years leads us back to introjection (which, again, does not occur consciously). It's not about comparing an offensive behavior with a defensive one, it's about understanding that both can stem from factors a subject has no control over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Let's make up a hypothetical of a wife who's beaten and abused by her husband, and internalizes that abuse and feels she "deserves it" and thus will stay with him. They are not meant to be representative of anyone else or any group of people.

    Here, his abuse may explain why she is internalizing that abuse, harming her self-esteem and explaining why she will not help herself escape the situation.

    It does not explain why she attacks police officers when they try and arrest her husband. That's a choice and it's not a choice her her husband caused her to make.
    No, it does explain it - hell, you even did some explaining in this hypothetical - it's just not a rational behavior. And how is an abusive husband not at fault for her abused wife's behavior exactly? This is truly incomprehensible (and has nothing to do with her being in the wrong for attacking the officer, which wasn't being questioned to begin with).

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There is a clear distinction that can be drawn between one's victimization, and one's own attacks on others. She was a victim, yes. That does not explain nor justify her actions in attacking police.

    Same with incels; maybe they were victimized at some earlier point in their lives. Doesn't matter. Does not explain or justify their attacks on and harassment of women. And no, women not wanting to date them is not "victimizing" them, in the first place, either, and often, that's the only thing these guys point at.
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Explanation and justification are very different things, and finding explanations for such unjustifiable actions is very possible. Also worth pointing out that I'm not "one of those guys" and that I've never suggested that incels are being victimized, given the tone of the underlined part. Perhaps it's also worth pointing out how I'm not defending misogyny or any form or sexism either (especially since I'm often a victim of sexism myself), given the ludicrous assumptions some tend to make on this board.
    Quote Originally Posted by Adolecent View Post
    I'm getting infracted by an American moderator on an American topic promoting/advocating weapons on a childrens forum, what else to expect on an American forum. I'm done here and i'm going to leave you one thing to remember:
    [extremely graphic picture of dead children]
    Hope you sleep well. With the lack of empathy the majority of you show i guess that won't be a problem. BB

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Coolthulhu View Post
    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Explanation and justification are very different things, and finding explanations for such unjustifiable actions is very possible. Also worth pointing out that I'm not "one of those guys" and that I've never suggested that incels are being victimized, given the tone of the underlined part. Perhaps it's also worth pointing out how I'm not defending misogyny or any form or sexism either (especially since I'm often a victim of sexism myself), given the ludicrous assumptions some tend to make on this board.
    The bolded is all I'll address really. I think that's the point. In cases where the person is not legally insane, the explanation is largely irrelevant. The explanation is only relevant if it somehow justifies their actions. In the case of Incels, the only explanation I've EVER seen is they're mad they can't get laid and the ones like the guy in this story are planning to do awful shit as a result of it.

    I don't disagree that knowing the explanation is important, but only insofar as to determine if it reasonably justifies the actions of the person. If it doesn't, it gets tossed out the window because the person is wholly responsible for their own decisions and actions and held accountable. Even those who are legally insane get held accountable, just in a different way (they still get incarcerated, it's just in an "insane asylum" rather than actual prison).

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Hollycakes View Post
    This is possibly the most absurd thing I've ever read.

    More than the Uyghurs in China?
    More than any women under ISIS?
    More than African Americans during slavery?
    This list could go on forever.
    There are literal children being sold for sex on the planet and you think incels have it bad?

    You need perspective, and education.

    And lol at all the "blame" being put on neurodiversity and not the individual.
    There are plenty of people on the spectrum( if this is why you brought that up) THAT DONT MURDER WOMEN UNDER THE BANNER OF INCEL.
    That excuse didn't work in the 80's when religious people tried to blame rock and roll for stuff either seeing as millions of other people also listen to rock and didn't satan worship etc. and any of the other times it's been tried either.

    Otherwise, you could just use that term for any wrong doing on your part and claim "Sorry I killed all those women officer, it's not my fault!, I'm neurodivergent!"
    This is Peter Hitchens levels of dense.
    Creepy how many incel sympathizers are on this forum.

    Yes the world needs more mental health support and the US especially does but this take is as far from the truth as it gets.
    Your own personal animosity to something either you haven't had or can't get is entirely your own. You own it.
    That's the same as murdering bankers cause you aren't rich.


    Also, l o fucking l at people jumping to conspiracy setups by the FBI to snag an incel. A single incel. lel
    The justice system is stupid, but even it will point and laugh at entrapment defense, and then, get serious by sentencing life in prison.

  20. #200
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The bolded is all I'll address really. I think that's the point. In cases where the person is not legally insane, the explanation is largely irrelevant. The explanation is only relevant if it somehow justifies their actions. In the case of Incels, the only explanation I've EVER seen is they're mad they can't get laid and the ones like the guy in this story are planning to do awful shit as a result of it.

    I don't disagree that knowing the explanation is important, but only insofar as to determine if it reasonably justifies the actions of the person. If it doesn't, it gets tossed out the window because the person is wholly responsible for their own decisions and actions and held accountable. Even those who are legally insane get held accountable, just in a different way (they still get incarcerated, it's just in an "insane asylum" rather than actual prison).
    Pretty much this; I didn't want to respond myself since I figured we'd just get into a circular argument.

    A guy being turned down by girls he likes could "explain" why he became an incel and started harassing and abusing women. But it didn't make him into an incel; that required his own active choice, and he bears full responsibility for his conduct. Looking for "explanations" is like looking for a mass shooter's manifesto; you're looking for an insight into why they're such a terrible person, not trying to find justifications that they're somehow not a terrible person.

    That's why I get twitchy about things like bringing up mental illness with regards to incels (or bigots, or such), or looking for some part of their past that "made them be this way". They didn't get forced. They chose this. They continue to choose this. Sure, maybe their parents raised them to be shitty people, and we can understand that dynamic better through study, but the point remains that they are shitty people because they actively and continuously choose to be shitty people. It is entirely, 100% their fault and responsibility. It is a deep lack of personal character, and they should be judged accordingly.

    The study of "explanations" is about how to notice warning signs of this kind of bullshit to hopefully forestall future attacks, not to try and deflect blame or responsibility. If you're trying to blame "society didn't help them get a girlfriend" or "their parents abused them" or "they were raised that way by shitty parents", that's not going to deflect blame or responsibility. That just explains why they've chosen to be terrible people.


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