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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadite View Post
    I have only seen to first 2 so far so cheers for the spoilers.
    If you go into a discussion about a series and you aren't up-to-date with all the episodes...any "spoilers" you get are on you.

  2. #182
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaqwert View Post
    The problem is that modern day creators think being "subversive" makes them geniuses. That's why the whole "subverting expectations" thing has become a meme.

    People don't want things they loved "subverted" and it's not clever or deep, it's actually completely hacky. Anybody can destroy.
    There is a way to subvert expectations, while still telling a great story. It's just...most of the "creators" today are no talent hacks that have no idea how to do this. They couldn't write their way out of a wet paper bag, so they think "all I have to do is do something unexpected and it makes me a genius!"



    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Funnily enough, He-man was one of the shows that was popular among females in the 80's. Same with shows like Voltron and She-Ra. If anything, He-man and She-Ra both demonstrated that shows could cater well to both demographics without any issues because the characters and dialogue worked. A lot of media these days is a shell of what it should be, especially female characters being presented with toxic masculinity traits, like Teela is in this He-man reboot. Which is hilarious in its own right.

    Apparently most of the writers these days have never actually watched shows that had real strong female characters, because they sure as heck aren't presented with the same behavioral patterns that Teela (and several other female characters in rebooted IP's recently) have projected.
    Yeah it sucks when things like this happen. Today "strong female characters" have to be Mary Sue's with no personality, that are automatically experts at everything they do and are loved by everyone. There's no character, and no growth. I love *actual* strong female characters, which we don't really get much of these days, at all. In fact, I would say, most of my favorite heroes are female.

  3. #183
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    There is a way to subvert expectations, while still telling a great story. It's just...most of the "creators" today are no talent hacks that have no idea how to do this. They couldn't write their way out of a wet paper bag, so they think "all I have to do is do something unexpected and it makes me a genius!"


    Yeah it sucks when things like this happen. Today "strong female characters" have to be Mary Sue's with no personality, that are automatically experts at everything they do and are loved by everyone. There's no character, and no growth. I love *actual* strong female characters, which we don't really get much of these days, at all. In fact, I would say, most of my favorite heroes are female.
    So the complaint about He-Man is that Teela makes bad choices but she's a Mary Sue who never makes mistakes or faces consequences, and you think the original Teela in the original He-Man wasn't a Mary Sue, or that Adam/He-Man more specifically wasn't a Gary Stu?

    That She-Ra wasn't a Mary Sue?

    This is a recurring theme, frankly. Writers add nuance and personality to old characters, giving them flaws, and fans react badly, and start tossing around "Mary-Sue!" when what's happening is that the new character isn't the same Mary Sue they always used to be.


  4. #184
    Elemental Lord Santti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    There is a way to subvert expectations, while still telling a great story. It's just...most of the "creators" today are no talent hacks that have no idea how to do this. They couldn't write their way out of a wet paper bag, so they think "all I have to do is do something unexpected and it makes me a genius!"
    Ahh, Kreia. I member. Shame Kotor2 was rather heavily cut, and had a lot of stuff dropped out of it, that was originally supposed to be there. I think some people modded the cut content in, though.

    You know what, I'll go check and play Kotor right meow.

    You meatbag.
    Last edited by Santti; 2021-08-03 at 02:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    There is a way to subvert expectations, while still telling a great story. It's just...most of the "creators" today are no talent hacks that have no idea how to do this. They couldn't write their way out of a wet paper bag, so they think "all I have to do is do something unexpected and it makes me a genius!"




    Yeah it sucks when things like this happen. Today "strong female characters" have to be Mary Sue's with no personality, that are automatically experts at everything they do and are loved by everyone. There's no character, and no growth. I love *actual* strong female characters, which we don't really get much of these days, at all. In fact, I would say, most of my favorite heroes are female.
    If you want to see the pinnacle of badass women, it was Pam Grier at the height of her career. She was great, and the writing was too even if it was campy at times. Because she exuded confidence but still had flaws and weaknesses, because those are what make characters believable.

    Considering Teela is literally written as a self-centered, arrogant and spiteful woman who exudes all the characteristics that fall under toxic masculinity, you shave her head and ditch the makeup and she's a man with tits. I'm unsure why these idiots think writing a female character in a way that they so blatantly hate in men is good, because it's neither feminine nor original. And it certainly doesn't make them strong.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    If you want to see the pinnacle of badass women, it was Pam Grier at the height of her career. She was great, and the writing was too even if it was campy at times. Because she exuded confidence but still had flaws and weaknesses, because those are what make characters believable.

    Considering Teela is literally written as a self-centered, arrogant and spiteful woman who exudes all the characteristics that fall under toxic masculinity, you shave her head and ditch the makeup and she's a man with tits. I'm unsure why these idiots think writing a female character in a way that they so blatantly hate in men is good, because it's neither feminine nor original. And it certainly doesn't make them strong.
    Big fucking yikes.
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  7. #187
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    I see a lot of the current man-children are now crying about that 'I Am Not Starfire Comic'. Another example of gatekeeping ones nostalgia because something new and different is not what they are familiar with. Once again personally I do not give a shit about this comic, I do not care it looks like crap and it most certainly isn't for me, and to me that's okay, so I am going to instead move to something that does. But these man-children feel so entitled, why are these people crying about a comic they are never going to buy... what is up with these people? Instead of crying about something you could be enjoying something instead. Or are these people so devoid of fun that to like something is hard.

    And I hear you asking why are you watching these videos if you hate them so much.... Because no matter how many times I block them on Youtube the algorithm thinks because I watch alot of book tubers, movie reviewers and comic reviewers they think I need to look at the toxic stuff too... Fix your damn shit YouTube lol
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  8. #188
    Immortal Stormspark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    So the complaint about He-Man is that Teela makes bad choices but she's a Mary Sue who never makes mistakes or faces consequences, and you think the original Teela in the original He-Man wasn't a Mary Sue, or that Adam/He-Man more specifically wasn't a Gary Stu?

    That She-Ra wasn't a Mary Sue?

    This is a recurring theme, frankly. Writers add nuance and personality to old characters, giving them flaws, and fans react badly, and start tossing around "Mary-Sue!" when what's happening is that the new character isn't the same Mary Sue they always used to be.
    I was speaking generally, not about He-Man. Honestly, I found the original He-Man pretty boring and repetitive. Watched it a few times as a kid, none of it stuck with me, I can't even remember the story today. It was one of those stories you just weren't supposed to think much about I guess. As far as the new He-Man, I haven't seen it.

    Mary Sue's have always been a thing, but they have been getting worse lately.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    Mary Sue's have always been a thing, but they have been getting worse lately.
    Have they been getting worse? Or are people simply more likely to sling the label around?

  10. #190
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by s_bushido View Post
    Have they been getting worse? Or are people simply more likely to sling the label around?
    People don't even know what the term means. I've seen people argue a protagonist is a Mary Sue because "everything works out for them in the end"; their mistakes get world through and dealt with by the end of the story. That's "this isn't a tragedy", not evidence for Mary Sue-ness.


  11. #191
    The Lightbringer Skayth's Avatar
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    I loved the new she-ra, hated the new he-man.

    I liked the force awakens (even if it was a rehash of episode 4) but hated the other 2.

    I liked robocop and the robocop remake (oof)

    But look at it.... why are we remaking what was loved by another and just not making something new?

    Well they are fully expecting the old fan base to come back and watch it... otherwise why bother. For he-man, I completely understand the backlash to it. I absolutely hated how Teela fucked off in the first episode thinking everything was about her. Legit, that is what a kid thinks. The world revolves around u. (Here it does cause plot armor)

    I dont mind rehashes that try to make things new, but if ur going to fully try and divide the fanbase, ur gonna get a huge backlash from the people that hate complete destruction of what they held. (Luke for me, disney)

    Then, they fully expect sales on toys and stuff. Well kids hardly play with such toys nowadays, and would rather have a tablet or a more amazing smartphone. The ones that do, congrats ur one for the few kids that bought it. Though stormtroopers are great for all the kiddos. The toys and collectibles sales are mainly for the older generation at that point.

    It's like how I see gundam seed is a garbage clone of gundam 0079. Oh lots of kids loved seed, but then They realized Kira is god Yamato by the end with how thicc his plot was.

    (Oh and I hated the original he-man as well)
    Last edited by Skayth; 2021-08-18 at 05:38 PM.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skayth View Post
    I loved the new she-ra, hated the new he-man.

    I liked the force awakens (even if it was a rehash of episode 4) but hated the other 2.

    I liked robocop and the robocop remake (oof)

    But look at it.... why are we remaking what was loved by another and just not making something new?

    Well they are fully expecting the old fan base to come back and watch it... otherwise why bother. For he-man, I completely understand the backlash to it. I absolutely hated how Teela fucked off in the first episode thinking everything was about her. Legit, that is what a kid thinks. The world revolves around u. (Here it does cause plot armor)

    I dont mind rehashes that try to make things new, but if ur going to fully try and divide the fanbase, ur gonna get a huge backlash from the people that hate complete destruction of what they held. (Luke for me, disney)

    Then, they fully expect sales on toys and stuff. Well kids hardly play with such toys nowadays, and would rather have a tablet or a more amazing smartphone. The ones that do, congrats ur one for the few kids that bought it. Though stormtroopers are great for all the kiddos. The toys and collectibles sales are mainly for the older generation at that point.

    It's like how I see gundam seed is a garbage clone of gundam 0079. Oh lots of kids loved seed, but then They realized Kira is god Yamato by the end with how thicc his plot was.

    (Oh and I hated the original he-man as well)
    Hollywood is so creatively bankrupt and the stupid plebs keep dishing out money for mediocre shows and films, rehashes and constant more of the same attempts at playing on nostalgia just with even worse implementation. That's not even getting into the nonsense Netflix has been pushing the last couple of years like the pedo bait film they were promoting.

  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Skayth View Post
    But look at it.... why are we remaking what was loved by another and just not making something new?
    Large productions like Hollywood movies are huge investments. People don't want to take risks with their money so they lean on already established things because it guarantees you some level of safety due to the retention of the older audiences. Also, even if you fuck it up there will be a brigade of journalists writing apologia for you and gaslighting people into believing that nothing has really changed and that they're the problem for not liking it.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  14. #194
    The Lightbringer Skayth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Large productions like Hollywood movies are huge investments. People don't want to take risks with their money so they lean on already established things because it guarantees you some level of safety due to the retention of the older audiences. Also, even if you fuck it up there will be a brigade of journalists writing apologia for you and gaslighting people into believing that nothing has really changed and that they're the problem for not liking it.
    Hollywood movies are a huge investment because every movie has to bring back at least double of what it's been made for and advertising.

    Most movies I think are fun are now indie films that hardly cost to much. Yea sure, there are some movies I look forward too (dune) but that's cause their is someone behind it that I know they wont really fuck it up (blade runner 2049 director)

    The problem is that they want to make 100 million at least in profits, and that's not feasible now. But they still expect it, so they will not do anything with new properties and just bank roll what franchises has known to make money and reboot failures.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspark View Post
    I was speaking generally, not about He-Man. Honestly, I found the original He-Man pretty boring and repetitive. Watched it a few times as a kid, none of it stuck with me, I can't even remember the story today. It was one of those stories you just weren't supposed to think much about I guess. As far as the new He-Man, I haven't seen it.

    Mary Sue's have always been a thing, but they have been getting worse lately.
    Especially on shows from the 80s that were 20 minute toy commercials with more toy commercials in between

  16. #196
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skayth View Post
    Hollywood movies are a huge investment because every movie has to bring back at least double of what it's been made for and advertising.

    Most movies I think are fun are now indie films that hardly cost to much. Yea sure, there are some movies I look forward too (dune) but that's cause their is someone behind it that I know they wont really fuck it up (blade runner 2049 director)

    The problem is that they want to make 100 million at least in profits, and that's not feasible now. But they still expect it, so they will not do anything with new properties and just bank roll what franchises has known to make money and reboot failures.
    This isn't really fair.

    Hollywood has made big investments into massive sci-fi blockbusters in recent years. Jupiter Ascending, Valerian and the City of A Thousand Planets, Cowboys vs Aliens, the Men In Black series, Speed Racer, Ender's Game, Avatar, RIPD, the Matrix trilogy. Some of those did well, some did not. Some deserved that, some did not.

    And that's just looking at the big blockbuster ones. We've been arguably in a heyday of indie films alongside this, in the genre.

    In fact, one of the biggest differences is that sci-fi and such get big budgets these days, when they almost never did. Even through the '80s and early '90s, big-budget sci-fi was rare.


  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This isn't really fair.
    It's decently fair in the context of how the entertainment industry has changed over the years, especially when it comes to what gets green-lit and what doesn't.

    Back roughly half a century ago (I feel old saying that now), the powers at be who bankrolled the entertainment were a bit more simple in terms what they had for expectations. In essence, it was a bit more Laissez-Faire. I have good friends who used to work in the industry back in the 80's for music and movies, and the observed general mentality from those controlling the purse strings was the following: "I don't get your music, but the young kids seem to like it. Just make me money!" That's it. Granted there's always exceptions, but there was more focus on what people actually enjoyed at wanted to see being produced. As such, more risks were taken, which is fairly evident by even the movies that were seen in the 70's to 90's, as well as through the early 2000's to some degree.

    Fast forward to the last decade, and the mentality of those in control has shifted over time. While money is still important, the message is just as important... or potentially more important to the level that losing money is fine in some areas (especially if they're already insanely wealthy or can make it up elsewhere). Instead of trying to make content that people like, there's more of a trend to actively spite or attack existing fanbases. In the current social climate, everyone has to walk on eggshells as your 'allies' will easily devour you if you make one misstep, and this is no exception to the production companies and financiers. Instead of banking people who have the best chance to make the most entertaining content, companies feel forced to hire based upon superficial metrics (race, gender, etc.) versus their actual abilities. As such, there is much less chance anyone will take a financial risk when it comes to making new movies or entertainment media that may be 'controversial' or will be made by no-name people; in fact, chances are you will get a sanitized result that adheres to the 'proper' social messages of the day, resulting in different versions made for various regions that no one really likes. Again, this isn't a universal rule, as there has been some good content to come out as of late... but it is a general mainstream trend that has lead to rehashing old franchises or 'modernizing older franchises to be more acceptable' since creating new content could be risky financially and socially. The exceptions tend to be either indie films that aren't as beholden to the social structure of the industry, or big-name directors/producers who have the weight behind them to get what they want.

    While the half-century old industry did have its problems, the comparatively relaxed restrictions of the time resulted in many great franchises and stand-alone content that have lasted and are still enjoyed/relevant to this day. However, I think the biggest key to the success and duration of older films and franchises is that their goal wasn't to attack/patronize it's viewers, it was to entertain them. No one wants to be embroiled in constant sociopolitical turmoil, especially when you go to your sources of entertainment for escape. The main reason much of the current entertainment content is bland, non-entertaining, or downright abrasive is exactly because it's not being made to entertain the masses, it's made as a platform to educate/indoctrinate and/or spite the fans.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Fast forward to the last decade, and the mentality of those in control has shifted over time. While money is still important, the message is just as important... or potentially more important to the level that losing money is fine in some areas (especially if they're already insanely wealthy or can make it up elsewhere). Instead of trying to make content that people like, there's more of a trend to actively spite or attack existing fanbases. In the current social climate, everyone has to walk on eggshells as your 'allies' will easily devour you if you make one misstep, and this is no exception to the production companies and financiers. Instead of banking people who have the best chance to make the most entertaining content, companies feel forced to hire based upon superficial metrics (race, gender, etc.) versus their actual abilities. As such, there is much less chance anyone will take a financial risk when it comes to making new movies or entertainment media that may be 'controversial' or will be made by no-name people; in fact, chances are you will get a sanitized result that adheres to the 'proper' social messages of the day, resulting in different versions made for various regions that no one really likes. Again, this isn't a universal rule, as there has been some good content to come out as of late... but it is a general mainstream trend that has lead to rehashing old franchises or 'modernizing older franchises to be more acceptable' since creating new content could be risky financially and socially. The exceptions tend to be either indie films that aren't as beholden to the social structure of the industry, or big-name directors/producers who have the weight behind them to get what they want.
    This is literally conspiracy thinking. Hollywood is just looking to make a buck. Any messages they put out they think will resonate will their audiences. And largely, this is paid out. Despite various franchises being pilloried on this particular forum and other toxic corners of the internet, most of them did, financially, very well, if not outstanding. You may scoff at the Hunger Games - but millions of young, teenage girls went to go see that movie.

    Your problem is that the audience has shifted in a way you don't care for. They're not catering to a niche audience any more (especially in genres which used to be very niche, like comics/sci-fi), just as they aren't with video games. And that's because they make more money that way.

    But you have to go and see an agenda everywhere: the only agenda is money. And apparently no press is bad press.

  19. #199
    I wonder if Geoffrey of Monmouth was accused of attacking the fans of King Arthur, or later mediaeval writers criticised for trying to inject their "modern" values into the older stories.

  20. #200
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    no, things were better in older times, that's fact
    easy check is talk to any immigrant if u live in a 1st world country, if they came from a 3rd world, they won't miss their home even for 0.001 sec, my friend immigrated to usa and he can't find even 1 single thing in usa worse than egypt, he doesn't miss egypt a single bit, the country earned its rank as (3rd) WORST for a reason
    now ask a usa citizen if he miss older times, of course he will, in 80s usa was better for him than 2020 usa, for my friend 2020 usa is better than egypt any time, and for me egypt 80s is way better than egypt 2020
    So no, it isn't nostalgia or 'we are stupid and stuck', old time IS better for majority of ppl world, and easiest way to prove it ask immigrants, or for example average eastern europe if he miss his 90s that was full of riots and civil wars over current 2020 UK, majority of ppl sadly can't immigrate from shitholes fucked up countries to better ones
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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