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  1. #41
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Your dad must be a quite untypical conservative, most of them don't waste any occassion to QQ every time something changes.

    As for "failling to move from our childhood", I don't think my generation (millennials) has an issue with that, not in any larger measure than any other generation, at all rates. Most people imo are attached to their childhood memories, and we live in a time when technology gives us a chance to relive at least a small bit of our childhood so I don't think that this is anything extraordinary. I personally find most shows from the 70s/80s to be cringe as all !@$%, but that's just me.
    lol funny you should say that. He supported unionization while also voted for Margret Thatcher... work that out :P
    Proof is boring. Proof is tiresome. Proof is irrelevance. People would rather be handed an easy lie than search for a difficult truth, especially when it suits their own purpose.
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  2. #42
    Most of the music and movies I like are from the 80s and 90s. When I compare them to what is coming out nowadays, the older stuff is better. With tv shows, I like a lot of older shows and some of the newer ones. I think about whether I'm being biased or eating too many member berries. I don't think I am.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    What are your opinions on this?
    What you're describing here is not really gatekeeping. This is people not liking a product because it doesn't conform to what they think that product should be. With things like Thundercats and He-Man...the original versions are held pretty tightly in nostalgia.

    Gatekeeping is when fans try to keep other people from entering into a fandom.

  4. #44
    Titan Orby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    What you're describing here is not really gatekeeping. This is people not liking a product because it doesn't conform to what they think that product should be. With things like Thundercats and He-Man...the original versions are held pretty tightly in nostalgia.

    Gatekeeping is when fans try to keep other people from entering into a fandom.
    Maybe its more 'entitlement' I was looking for then. But I tend to look at it in a way of gatekepeing their nostalgia from anyone else doing something with it. I dunno :P
    Proof is boring. Proof is tiresome. Proof is irrelevance. People would rather be handed an easy lie than search for a difficult truth, especially when it suits their own purpose.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Maybe its more 'entitlement' I was looking for then. But I tend to look at it in a way of gatekepeing their nostalgia from anyone else doing something with it. I dunno :P
    Doubt it. Frankly, I'd want people to appreciate something the same way I do, by it being presented in a way that is similar to how it was created originally that made me love it in the first place. It's hard to be nostalgic when something is so inherently different from it's predecessors in every way shape or form.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Maybe its more 'entitlement' I was looking for then. But I tend to look at it in a way of gatekepeing their nostalgia from anyone else doing something with it. I dunno :P
    Most of the time it isn't "How dare you do something with my beloved fandom" and more "This shit is awful...I recommend everyone watch the original instead"

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    I liked it personally. I wasnt even aware there was even controversy over it until after I binged watched it... the blessing of not being on social media I guess. So, like most controversies I have no ides what people are complaining about but seeing who the star of the show is I can probably guess lol. which is why the show was called Masters of the Universe and not He-Man Masters of the Universe.

    and this is what the thread is about mainly, I do not understand why people are so angry and feel the need to be so toxic about a show they were so attached when they were younger? Why is this the hill people are wanting to die on? And this guy in the video calling it a disaster? Why because he didn't like it? These manchild tubers need to grow up a bit and learn to enjoy things, make some positive videos about what he likes instead to trying to be Quartering guy #3123
    He-Man was one of the 80s biggest and persistent franchises between the cartoon and toys, so it means a lot to people who grew up with it.

    In terms of this series they specifically marketed it as a love letter to the fans of the original MotU, this was a show for the adults who were kids when the original was on, only many fans feel like it turned out to be a love letter from a crazed ex. Yes, it's called Masters of the Universe, but He-Man is still who most of the audience would immediately think of as the main character. Ultimately people don't like being lied to, and that is what it feels like Smith did.

    Its also not immediately "toxic" to be critical of something, but people love to automatically slap that label on unhappy fans.

    Honestly if they hadn't handled Teela like they did, I don't think the backlash would have been as great, but they've painted her as a terrible character in this, which is a shame because this story could have worked well if they had given her Duncan's brief storyline instead.

    He-Man is just one more notch in the belt of franchises that people feel have been mishandled. Myself, I do vote with my wallet, I have been a big collector for years, yet as franchises go in the toilet, I stop buying their merchandise. I haven't bought Star Wars stuff since prior to the release of TLJ, I was considering collecting He-Man again, but I've decided to pass now.

  8. #48
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    What I find weirdest, speaking as a GenX-er who is absolutely in the demographic in question, is why the hell people think a lot of these older shows were good? He-Man and Transformers, in particular, were basically slapped-together, shittily animated commercials, when a change to TV regulations gave toy companies a new opportunity to exploit kids.

    And let me be clear: I fucking loved He-Man and Transformers. I had high hopes for the new Transformers films, before they turned into my complete disillusionment with Michael Bay as a professional, since movies about big alien robots got turned into misogynistic framing, racist bullshit, and bathroom humor.

    Those films are objectively bad. Not because they did one of my favorite cartoons dirty, but because there was so much opportunity to make a shitty toy-commercial-framed-as-entertainment into something actually interesting.

    For He-Man, practically anything it's used for these days has been better than the original cartoon. Still haven't seen Revelations, but I really think people forget how seriously dumb the cartoon was, and how shitty the animation was.

    That's the issue with the "gatekeeping"; they're holding up dreck as the ideal, and often whining that the new stuff actually has nuance and explores complexities the original couldn't or wouldn't ever touch.

    We were like 8 years old, guys. We were idiots. Of course we liked that shit. But I'm willing to bet practically nobody who's bitching about these reboots has actually re-watched those shows since the original runs. Definitely not regularly. The "nostalgia" is that they can't accept that maybe they were a childish idiot for liking the original.

    You can't watch the original He-Man cartoons and tell me they're great. They aren't. They're a cheaply made marketing stunt to push surplus Conan remodels as toys for kids. Hell, go watch the Netflix Toys That Made Us episodes for He-Man and Transformers. It's mostly about the actual toys, but they both talk about the TV shows and how they were important to market the toys.


  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Phayde View Post
    He-Man was one of the 80s biggest and persistent franchises between the cartoon and toys, so it means a lot to people who grew up with it.

    In terms of this series they specifically marketed it as a love letter to the fans of the original MotU, this was a show for the adults who were kids when the original was on, only many fans feel like it turned out to be a love letter from a crazed ex. Yes, it's called Masters of the Universe, but He-Man is still who most of the audience would immediately think of as the main character. Ultimately people don't like being lied to, and that is what it feels like Smith did.

    Its also not immediately "toxic" to be critical of something, but people love to automatically slap that label on unhappy fans.

    Honestly if they hadn't handled Teela like they did, I don't think the backlash would have been as great, but they've painted her as a terrible character in this, which is a shame because this story could have worked well if they had given her Duncan's brief storyline instead.

    He-Man is just one more notch in the belt of franchises that people feel have been mishandled. Myself, I do vote with my wallet, I have been a big collector for years, yet as franchises go in the toilet, I stop buying their merchandise. I haven't bought Star Wars stuff since prior to the release of TLJ, I was considering collecting He-Man again, but I've decided to pass now.
    Its not toxic to be critical you are right, but its how you are critical that purveys that. Going on and on and bombarding its creators with threats and making 5 videos a day about how Kevin Smith is the devil doesn't help matters or your case. Most of the manchild-tubers tend to not be very constructive in their criticism and tend to just throw in busswords like 'SJW' and use thumbnails with angry women with bright hair... that's not criticism.

    Personally I had no idea how it was marketed I never saw the marketing for it until like 5 days before it came on Netlix. And I thought it did stay truthful to the fans, even throwing in nods to some of the old toylines, which I thought was cute, It wasnt like He-Man wasnt in the show, he was featured in all 5 episodes more so the first and the 5th episode. So once again I do not get the hate.
    Last edited by Orby; 2021-07-25 at 05:56 PM.
    Proof is boring. Proof is tiresome. Proof is irrelevance. People would rather be handed an easy lie than search for a difficult truth, especially when it suits their own purpose.
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  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Its not toxic to be critical you are right, but its how you are critical that purveys that. Going on and on and bombarding its creators with threats and making 5 videos a day about how Kevin Smith is the devil doesn't help matters or your case. Most of the manchild-tubers tend to not be very constructive in their criticism and tend to just throw in busswords like 'SJW' and use thumbnails with angry women with bright hair... that's not criticism.

    Personally I had no idea how it was marketed I never saw the marketing for it until like 5 days before it came on Netlix. And I thought it did stay truthful to the fans, even throwing in nods to some of the old toylines, which I thought was cute, It wasnt like He-Man wasnt in the show, he was featured in all 5 episodes more so the first and the 5th episode. So once again I do not get the hate.
    No I agree that nothing is gained from fans acting like Aholes. There are a lot of fans who take it too far, there are a lot of fans who only argument is "its sucks", without any valid reason.

    The thing with the Youtubers is that they make money from this, and controversy makes more money than praise, and the more vids they can release, the more money they can make.

    Yea, this show had been pretty heavily marketed towards the older crowd, on social media, which you said you wisely avoid, that this was going to be a more "adult" style He-Man, originally as a direct sequel, then as a spiritual successor because of rights issues.

    I definitely appreciated some of the fan service they did do, like all of the various character cameos, even rhe vehicle cameos like the Land Shark.

    There is a bit of a difference in having He-Man featured in show as a head lining character or having him show up in a 30 second flashback. That's a bit of the Obi-Wan excuse, saying He-Man is in every episode, is true from a certain point of view.

    I can see good ideas in the show, I just think they failed with the execution. I was fine with Teela being the focus, but I think they should have treated her arc as one of defeat and rebirth so to speak. Have her feel like a failure, and walk away, because she doesn't feel worthy, not because she's mad about being lied to, which as Captain of the Guard, (she would understand some things she wasn't privy to), she can still be tasked with re-forging the sword and finding out what happened to He-Man, thereby realizing that she is capable, and as Cringer said, Adam made the sacrifice because he believed in Teela.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Mainly talking to late Gen X early millennial (maybe late millennial too).

    I say this having been on the internet a lot and watching and hearing people behaviour over their beloved childhood.

    I am 38 years old, I grew up on shows like He-Man, Thundercats, TMNT, Duck Tales, Ghostbusters and Count Duckula to name a few. I grew up with movies like Goonies, Ghostbusters, Land Before Time, Back to the Future, and ET, once again to name a few. But here's the thing, among my generation or those just after it, I have seemed to notice a certain behaviour when nostalgia is either milked, exploited or even done in good faith.

    We get super gatekeepy. I recently saw the Master of the Universe cartoon, I thought it was okay but being a guy who left social media in 2016 I wasn't aware of the vitriol around this show until after I watched the first 5 episodes (guess it pays to not be on social media), People furious over it for whatever the reason I do not care there are multiple reasons I have heard and seen. Take a movie like the 2016 Ghostbustrers that came out (I still haven't seen it nor do I intend to), or maybe Thundercats got a recent cartoon series that people hate becuase of the animation style, and yes it is awful but I don't care because, first, the original still exists and second, this new one isnt for me. But people get super mad at shows that have long since left their used by date, we have grown up, children are watching these shows now and probably are enjoying them, meanwhile us 30+ year olds are here crying about our cartoons that are generally not aimed at us anymore.

    Have we failed to move on from our childhood? Why do we connect so much with the media we grew up on and why can we not let it go? For whatever reasons we are upset about our nostalgia being 'ruined' or 'destroyed' why do we really care? I am really not that bothered personally, but it seems us 30+ year olds are really concerned about children's TV shows more than any other generation before us?

    This may be because of Hollywood and culture in general is really cashing hard on things we loved and altering them to fit social norms of today, and I say whatever, go for it, if I don't like it I don't like it, if I like it then hey good for me. But some people get so aggressive about it. And I don't get it. I mean that's a lie, I really hated the Michael Bay Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles but I never went on a social media tirade about it like some people have done for their nostalgia.

    Now this seems to be common thing in our generation. My dad who is a big conservative guy grew up with a lot of shows and never once complains if they have changed or been altered, he takes it at face value then just says if its shit or good. Its just really off that our generation is so attached to these things. I am not sure you fellow zoomers will be in the same boat as us... time will tell.

    What are your opinions on this?

    EDIT: Also mods can you fix spelling error in title 'Does' not 'Dose' thank you <3
    No, out generation doesn't have a gatekeeping problem.

    Just going by numbers in America (they're similar across other cultures) there are about 65,000,000 members of Gen X. There are another 72 million millennials.

    How many of them are on social media bitching about stuff? 10,000? If 10,000 Gen Xers complain about a thing -- and that's a fuck ton of people -- that's still only 0.00015 of the population. That's 0.015% of the population, which means 99.985% of the population isn't complaining about a thing.

    The reality is, EVERY GENERATION HAS ASSHOLES IN IT. Every generation has selfish people, ignorant people, racist people, bigoted people, etc. On social media, those negative qualities are amplified well beyond their actual numbers in society, mostly because social media organizes itself such that all the bigots find each other and amplify their idiocy. All the gatekeepers of a film, the same.

    Then, in an effort to piss you off and keep you engaged in the social media site, those sites will push the content of the idiots in your face, hoping as many people as possible will engage with them.

    TL;DR This isn't a generational problem. This is a "social media is a cancer that needs either to be regulated or purged from society" problem.

  12. #52
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Phayde View Post
    There is a bit of a difference in having He-Man featured in show as a head lining character or having him show up in a 30 second flashback. That's a bit of the Obi-Wan excuse, saying He-Man is in every episode, is true from a certain point of view.
    The show is not titled "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe: Revelation".

    It's titled "Masters of the Universe: Revelation".

    He-man is literally not a headliner. In fact, his omission from the title seems pretty darned intentional.


  13. #53
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    -no, ask any 80s or 90s kid who grew up in eastern europe (specially ex-yugoslavia countries) and he won't miss his childhood even for 0.01 sec
    -u asking ppl who lived in far better status why they missing their better days
    -for example ask anyone who immigrated from a 3rd world country to a 1st world if he 'miss' his childhood, and none will say they do after they saw how far better superior average 1st world citizen life really is
    - the problem is average 1st world citizen head is shoved so far in his ass he refuse to see reality, most world is shit, his 'bad' life (which did get worse than his 80s and 90s to be fair) is far better than life of someone who did the horrible crime of dare being born in the (3rd) WORST country on earth, so he thinks how great his younger days are, and get stuck in Nostalgia
    tldr: no we aren't, just for most of us younger days were actually better, but for ppl whose life got improved, they don't miss it
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You can't watch the original He-Man cartoons and tell me they're great. They aren't. They're a cheaply made marketing stunt to push surplus Conan remodels as toys for kids. Hell, go watch the Netflix Toys That Made Us episodes for He-Man and Transformers. It's mostly about the actual toys, but they both talk about the TV shows and how they were important to market the toys.
    That's absolutely true...but, in many cases, it does not matter. I can personally attest after rewatching Gen 1 Transformers a few years ago that it's objectively really bad. So no, I can't tell you they are great. But can you tell me that, even knowing how bad they actually were, it changes the memories of them being the greatest shows of your childhood? That's what these new creators are up against. They aren't competing with a product...they are competing with an idealized memory of that product. Objectively, these new shows could be a million times better than the originals... but, compared to the subjective memories of an 8 year old... they will have a really hard time measuring up to expectations. It's not logical at all...but it is what it is.

    Now, if one can put aside that nostalgia and look at these new shows with unbiased eyes...they might find they are actually good. Personally, I actually really enjoyed the Thundercats remake they tried like a decade ago...and I loved Thundercats as a kid. I didn't hold it in as high regard as I did Transformers...but it was one of the Saturday morning cartoons I looked forward to as opposed to the ones that I only watched because it was in the Timeslot between X and Y.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    -no, ask any 80s or 90s kid who grew up in eastern europe (specially ex-yugoslavia countries) and he won't miss his childhood even for 0.01 sec
    -u asking ppl who lived in far better status why they missing their better days
    -for example ask anyone who immigrated from a 3rd world country to a 1st world if he 'miss' his childhood, and none will say they do after they saw how far better superior average 1st world citizen life really is
    - the problem is average 1st world citizen head is shoved so far in his ass he refuse to see reality, most world is shit, his 'bad' life (which did get worse than his 80s and 90s to be fair) is far better than life of someone who did the horrible crime of dare being born in the (3rd) WORST country on earth, so he thinks how great his younger days are, and get stuck in Nostalgia
    tldr: no we aren't, just for most of us younger days were actually better, but for ppl whose life got improved, they don't miss it
    Thanks for the injection of nihilism...but try to stay on topic.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    What I find weirdest, speaking as a GenX-er who is absolutely in the demographic in question, is why the hell people think a lot of these older shows were good? He-Man and Transformers, in particular, were basically slapped-together, shittily animated commercials, when a change to TV regulations gave toy companies a new opportunity to exploit kids.
    Maybe that is the trouble. Newer version of these things try too hard and "leave no space".
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

  16. #56
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    So no, I can't tell you they are great. But can you tell me that, even knowing how bad they actually were, it changes the memories of them being the greatest shows of your childhood? That's what these new creators are up against. They aren't competing with a product...they are competing with an idealized memory of that product. Objectively, these new shows could be a million times better than the originals... but, compared to the subjective memories of an 8 year old... they will have a really hard time measuring up to expectations. It's not logical at all...but it is what it is.
    And I'm saying that's an audience being unreasonable. It's an impossible standard. You have to be better than the best thing ever to be "good enough".

    That's why I used the example of the new Transformers films. I loathe them. Not because I'm a huge Transformers fanboy (and I am), but because they're objectively awful as films, today. The misogyny and racism and bathroom humor is gross and weird. Bumblebee was totally great, though. My issue isn't how the Transformers look now, it's entirely down to Michael Bay's idiot-man-child sensibilities. Meanwhile, I'm watching Masters of the Universe: Revelation today, and it's way better than it has any reason to be. The MCU films have been a historical achievement that we'll still be talking about in 80 years, independent of my nostalgia for comic books. The new Voltron show was amusing, if aimed pretty young and something I literally only watched because of nostalgia. I'm judging things based on how well they work today, and letting my personal enjoyment of them due to nostalgia be a separate thing entirely. It's why I still think The Last Jedi is in the top 5 Star Wars films, and potentially top 3, even if Rise of Skywalker is almost definitely the worst of the bunch (though it's fighting with Phantom Menace for that spot).

    (Top 5, FWIW, are ANH, ESB, RotJ, R1, and TLJ, in order of release and not in order of quality. ESB's the top of the pack there, RotJ's the bottom, and the other three I feel differently about on different days.)

    I'm not letting nostalgia alone guide my judgement, and it's baffling to me that people are. They're like a toddler who's eaten their chicken nuggets, and demands more. And when they're offered new chicken nuggets, they throw the plate and demand that they don't want new chicken nuggets, they want more of the old chicken nuggets. Sometimes, they're not even different nuggets; they're right out of the same box.
    Last edited by Endus; 2021-07-25 at 06:48 PM.


  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The show is not titled "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe: Revelation".

    It's titled "Masters of the Universe: Revelation".

    He-man is literally not a headliner. In fact, his omission from the title seems pretty darned intentional.
    Yes, I've seen the title defense, as I said in another post, despite the new title, He-Man is 100% associated with the franchise in being the main character. Smith had said repeatedly he was the main character, and was the focus of the show, which after viewing it, I don't think is accurate. Personally I don't care if they made Orko the focus of the show, just don't bullshit people about it.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    And I'm saying that's an audience being unreasonable. It's an impossible standard. You have to be better than the best thing ever to be "good enough"
    People can pull it off, though. Look at how the Mandalorian has been received compared to the (awful) sequel trilogy. Batman and Spiderman films have been well-received despite being essentially endless reboots. The Witcher (which I personally thought was mediocre) did pretty well.

    The problem is not understanding the audience. Creators face enormous pressure to impress Twitter rather than the people who actually like their show.
    A better way to think about Casual v Hardcore: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...asual-Hardcore

  19. #59
    Bloodsail Admiral Pakheth's Avatar
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    I found it hilarious that one of the first reviews for Voltron: Legendary Defender on IMDB was someone complaining about it not having the same intro music as the original show that came out in the 80's, completely missing the point that VLD was a complete reboot of the series, and damn good too(ignore the haters, most of them are just salty certain characters didn't end up together).
    I've seen both shows and I feel the original show had not aged well, but I also know it was a very interesting product of its time being a fusion of 3 different shows (Beast King GoLion and others) and fully voice acted by a handful of people that were doing their best. I understand why it was loved by kids but honestly I find it inferior to the newest iteration as its production quality and writing blows the original out of the water.

    The same you can say about the original TMNT cartoon. It has not aged well at all and it is absolutely riddled with animation errors and very shitty voice acting. I remember liking it as a kid but going back and watching it was just painful. Some stuff is simply nostalgia. The countless reboots of TMNT bring a lot of better quality shows and stories to the table than the original.

    The first reboot of ThunderCats is also supposedly quite good but it was cancelled after 1 season. The newest reboot on the other hand did receive a lot of flak for its artstyle and honestly I get it. The artstyle doesn't reflect anything of what made the original great and the show was turned into one that focused on gags instead of adventure with an artstyle a lot of people are already tired of. This same problem riddled shows like the Power Puff Girls and especially Teen Titans. The shows were rebooted by people who didn't help create the original, only tried to cash in on the old show's success. And that is why I love the Voltron reboot so much. The crew who made it really loved the original, one of the main characters is voiced by someone who's favourite toy as a kid was a Black Lion robot toy, and the story is full of references to the old show, both in seriousness and in jest. That's how you do a good reboot.

    So yes I would say that for some nostalgia is gatekeeping, but there are legit bad remakes/reboots out there and there are also great ones. It just depends on who were put in charge of the core material and how much they respect the original work.
    Last edited by Pakheth; 2021-07-25 at 06:54 PM.

  20. #60
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    We get super gatekeepy.
    No, "we" aren't. A few thousands people on an internet echo bubble literally means shit.

    I'm 37, never had a twitter account, never will. Life is good. Why you care about what other you'll never know for real think about anything ?
    Like what you want, dislike what you want. And let other do the same...
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

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