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  1. #41
    The player character does not get the recognition as the biggest mass murdering psychopath in the entire franchise.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Blackhand never really had an "origin" story to speak of, even in the AU lore - unless you mean the comic interlude with his temporary use of the Doomhammer (which is less an origin and more of an aside)?
    Yes I am talking about it.

  3. #43
    i always Found that infinite dragons to be underrated. Control over time and trying to change past events to change the future is always a dire threat. there is a thread in the General discussions forum about supposedly the Jailer going through a "time portal"at the end of the Sanct of domination cinematic so anytime time travel elements appear I hope the infinite flight show up.

  4. #44
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    • Garrosh was great. It's a shame his lieutenants didn't have more ingame screentime (Malkorok, Zaela, Blackfuse), so the True Horde doesn't really feel like a faction. It just feels like Garrosh and some orcs. Nazgrim was delightful during the first half of the MoP questing experience, but was then put on a bus and didn't come back until 5.4, in which we see him for 1 minute and then he dies.
    • The Prophet Zul was a good, enigmatic background antagonist before BFA. We knew that Zul was behind the contingent of Zandalari who assisted Lei Shen. We also knew that this expedition was unauthorized by the king and that Zul was working behind his back. The mere fact that this illegitimate man was able to command such a powerful force made him seem pretty powerful, and it also made the Zandalari Empire feel even mightier. But then BFA made both of them feel tiny and relatively insignificant.
    • Kilrogg in WoD. I like how he's just some guy who then sees a vision of the future, and is trying to figure out what it means. His clan was on the brink of annihilation, so ofcourse he joins the Iron Horde (whereas the Frostwolves were powerful enough to not get crushed immediately). But then things start going south for the Iron Horde, and Killrogg starts putting 2 and 2 together and figures out how everything is going to play out anyway, so he decides to screw it and embrace his villainy and go out in a blaze of glory.

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  5. #45
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I thought Gul'dan's AU backstory (nameless clan, contact with the Legion, etc.) was the only AU backstory that was made MU canon as of WoD? We know several of the other major Orc chieftains have different backstories - Grom's mate dying and their not having a son (Garrosh) in the AU, Ner'zhul's mate Rulkan remaining alive in the AU but having died in the MU, etc.
    u talking about same company that made Archimonde one and same across all realities, while Sargeras his boss whose might is equal to entire BL combined, is different in each universe, we still waiting explanation (7 years and counting)
    mocking aside, he did say that - like RPG books - unless they contradict lore in a specific point (like Nerzhul mate alive), it is same backstory, Kil'rogg for example also killed his father in MU, something that put shit on someone who was considered the most honorable orc clan leader in all horde after Durotan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrorthatflapsinthenight View Post
    Only Gul'dan and Blackhand are confirmed to have the same origin story in both MU and AU, though MU Blackhand has the same appearance than his film counterpart only with the blach hands having been added and his personality always stay the same : arrogant, ambitious, proud, smug and ruthless.
    how the fuck someone who threw his own children with zero hesitation to the fel grind machine be the same guy who was willing to sacrifice himself for his tribe, how the fuck is that possible?
    i know it is now official lore but fuck it, it doesn't make sense, then again in compare to Sylvannas it makes a lot more sense heh
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
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    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  6. #46
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    u talking about same company that made Archimonde one and same across all realities, while Sargeras his boss whose might is equal to entire BL combined, is different in each universe, we still waiting explanation (7 years and counting)
    mocking aside, he did say that - like RPG books - unless they contradict lore in a specific point (like Nerzhul mate alive), it is same backstory, Kil'rogg for example also killed his father in MU, something that put shit on someone who was considered the most honorable orc clan leader in all horde after Durotan
    Beyond the many continuity errors of WoD's story, we don't really know if Archimonde is actually "the same across all realities," nor do we actually know if any of the Titans are replicated in any AU continuity - with Chronicle Vol. 3 having returned the "rules" on alternate continuities back to the original ones described in Twilight of the Aspects it seems unlikely.

    As for the rest, do you have a primary source on that? I'd be interested in reading how it was said and who said it.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  7. #47
    The Unstoppable Force
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurkan View Post
    Underrated amongst the community, Gul'dan definitely.
    He's rotten to the core, his only ambition was power, there was no redeeming qualities to him. His voice acting coupled with the lines he was given in WoD were great, he actually felt like a threat looming in the distance.
    Please, he's a fan and a blizzard favourite.

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  8. #48
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Beyond the many continuity errors of WoD's story, we don't really know if Archimonde is actually "the same across all realities," nor do we actually know if any of the Titans are replicated in any AU continuity - with Chronicle Vol. 3 having returned the "rules" on alternate continuities back to the original ones described in Twilight of the Aspects it seems unlikely.

    As for the rest, do you have a primary source on that? I'd be interested in reading how it was said and who said it.
    no we do, we have confirmed that Burning Legion is one and same across all realities, that means that MU Archimonde is same one we face in WoD since there is no AU Archimonde, just one
    That's what we waiting for answer, how can KJ be one and same (or Archimonde, or any demon) while we have multi-velen, why AU which is 25 years or whatever before our world, yet demons don't act with pre-knowledge of everything
    how the f8ck is Socrathar not knowing us or what will happen, we meet AU Socrathar as eredar before he becomes demon, yet after he becomes demon he still screw it like it is a different being
    tldr: no we have confirm that demons are one across all realities, titans aren't, source is many interviews and posts from blizz themselves, with promise of explaining in Chronicles, but chronicles didn't reach WoD yet, not to mention it is from a titan pov anyway so it is valid as toilet paper
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  9. #49
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    no we do, we have confirmed that Burning Legion is one and same across all realities, that means that MU Archimonde is same one we face in WoD since there is no AU Archimonde, just one
    That's what we waiting for answer, how can KJ be one and same (or Archimonde, or any demon) while we have multi-velen, why AU which is 25 years or whatever before our world, yet demons don't act with pre-knowledge of everything
    how the f8ck is Socrathar not knowing us or what will happen, we meet AU Socrathar as eredar before he becomes demon, yet after he becomes demon he still screw it like it is a different being
    tldr: no we have confirm that demons are one across all realities, titans aren't, source is many interviews and posts from blizz themselves, with promise of explaining in Chronicles, but chronicles didn't reach WoD yet, not to mention it is from a titan pov anyway so it is valid as toilet paper
    There's a difference between the statements "all Archimondes are the same Archimonde" and "the Archimonde we encounter in Hyjal and the one we encounter on Draenor are the same." The second statement is true - the Archimonde we encounter in WoD is the same Archimonde we saw at Hyjal, as it is an Archimonde who's been reconstituted in the Nether per your typical demonic regeneration. The first statement implies that there other non-demonic Archimondes milling around in the various continuities, which *could* be true, but since those continuities are also of a limited span it essentially makes no difference to the demonic Archimonde in the Nether. The same would be true for Kil'jaeden in this sense. Velen hasn't become a demon dwelling in a transcendent reality, so it's understandable within the current metacosm that there could be echoes of him across the multiverse, but again, they don't matter overly either as they typically wink out of existence on the regular as AU continuities collapse in on themselves. As for Socrethar, he becomes demonically corrupted but he's also a ghostly being when we encounter him in HFC later on, so his union with the Socrethar in the Nether may have been halted or broken by dying as a mortal Draenei before he could actually become a true demon. Or, quite possibly, perhaps AU alternates don't actually join with their MU selves in the Nether at all.

    Other continuities could have different Titans altogether, not copies or echoes of the Titans we're familiar with in the MU, as well. The Chronicle series is also still canon regardless of it being from the Titan's perspective - given the Titans are a definite authority on such matters, such as Aman'thul knowing the entirety of the MU timeline, I would say that their perspective definitely carries considerable weight even if it isn't absolute. The Grimoire of the Shadowlands and Beyond may shed some additional light on how AU continuities work within the greater whole of the Warcraft metacosm.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #50
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  11. #51
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    -snip-
    1- nope, again we have confirm that demons are one and same across all realities, there is no AU archimonde (so far at least, unless they actually fix it with a retcon and eat that bullshit statement, it will also require change of text in-game), just 1 archimonde, or 1 KJ, who is surprising stupid for how smart scheming he was in MU dreanor, socrathar should knew everything MU demon knew as soon he transformed to being a demon, yet he never showed that in wow
    2- titans do NOT know many details described in chronicles since they die since 1st book and become trapped dead spirits by sargeras, it doesn't make sense how they know many events in Azeroth like details of wc3, role of Moira and many fine details described in Chronicles
    Yeah blizz said it is from titans pov, blizz word IS the definition of lore not mine, but in my eyes, it means that those books that i was dying from anticipation of their release means are total bullshit and nothing in them make sense and they are just fabricated words since no way a titan know Anduin was forced to stay in IF during Moira rise to power, and they shouldn't even give a fuck about something that trivial from a titan pov in first place to record it
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  12. #52
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    1- nope, again we have confirm that demons are one and same across all realities, there is no AU archimonde (so far at least, unless they actually fix it with a retcon and eat that bullshit statement, it will also require change of text in-game), just 1 archimonde, or 1 KJ, who is surprising stupid for how smart scheming he was in MU dreanor, socrathar should knew everything MU demon knew as soon he transformed to being a demon, yet he never showed that in wow
    Demons are native to a dimension that is transcendent across all realities - that doesn't imply or require that they are "one and the same" across all realities. The nature of demons and the nature of the Twisting Nether are two separate things. Since demons largely get "promoted" (for lack of a better term) from the ranks of mortal beings, there can and have been cases where multiple instances of the mortal aspect of a demon exist simultaneously. So yes, there is only one demonic Kil'jaeden, or one demonic Archimonde, but it is possible in some AU continuity that a mortal Eredar Kil'jaeden who never became a demon exists, or one that existed prior to becoming a demon, etc. We also know nothing of how the shared nature of mortal/demonic entities work - Socrethar can't tell us because it's possible he wasn't fully a demon by the time he died in WoD's continuity. Equally possible is that the demonic aspect of a given person doesn't gain anything from any aspect of them similarly becoming demonic - no memories or powers, so to speak. It's an unknown quantity.

    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    2- titans do NOT know many details described in chronicles since they die since 1st book and become trapped dead spirits by sargeras, it doesn't make sense how they know many events in Azeroth like details of wc3, role of Moira and many fine details described in Chronicles
    Yeah blizz said it is from titans pov, blizz word IS the definition of lore not mine, but in my eyes, it means that those books that i was dying from anticipation of their release means are total bullshit and nothing in them make sense and they are just fabricated words since no way a titan know Anduin was forced to stay in IF during Moira rise to power, and they shouldn't even give a fuck about something that trivial from a titan pov in first place to record it
    Aman'thul knows the entire timeline from pretty much day 1 - it doesn't matter when his spirit was trapped, he knew everything insofar as the material universe was concerned from the get-go (e.g. telling Nozdormu the circumstances of his own death, which he couldn't possibly know given that Nozdormu didn't exist until long after Aman'thul's apparent death and imprisonment in Antorus). The fact what you wanted from the Chronicle is different from what you have now isn't material to the lore, the Titans are still the ultimate authority on the physical universe within Warcraft's mythology. Their perspective is limited to the said universe, sure; but nonetheless absolute in their domain. The Titans recorded everything that happened in the universe because they're beings of essential Order, the minutiae is omni-important to them because they're practically robots and almost devoid of emotion.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Agreed fully. The guy was presented as half Genghis Khan and half Qui Shi Huangdi, a Wild God-beating asskicker and tyrant with very little equal in Azeroth's history, but he gets whooped in the patch that truly introduces him. Great raid for sure, but still a huge loss of potential.

    Yeah, fuck Nazi Orcs. Mists should have been about the rise of the Thunder King. I'd make the 5.2 raid a vault of his, instead of the throne, ending with Ra-den as the final boss without us fighting Lei Shen proper. 5.3 is where we deal with Garrosh, but not at all in the way it happens, rather that Horde settles the civil war without it taking over the entire narrative (via Mak'gora, perhaps, I dunno). Then 5.4 is the defense of Pandaria from Lei Shen's final assault of Mogu and co-opted Sha forces after he absorbs the Heart of Yshaarj that Garrosh previously uncovered without using. We snatch victory from the jaws of defeat as always, both factions are utterly exhausted by the effort and forced to declare a white peace, the Heart is destroyed, and bonus point there's no segway possible to WoD and thus no need to suffer that shit expansion.

    Ok I kinda got carried away there but one gets the point. I dunno if I'd even kill Lei Shen at the end of Mists, I think there's good arguments both ways, but having him tale up more narrative presence than Crazy Warchief v1.0 would only have improved the storyline.
    Thinking about it, it makes actually nice intro into BfA. Exhausted Horde under Warchief Vol'jin look after allies to strengthen depleted Horde. They learn of the Zul's aid of Lei Shen was not approved by Rastakhan. Alliance can still capture Talanji, Vol'jin decide to free her and use it as a way to Rastakhan's court. Realizing Horde is getting closer to the powerful Zandalari empire, Varian decide to open talks with Kul Tiras, Jaina volunteers. Instead of open Fourth War, there is a cold war with regional skirmishes. Both factions try to establish strong position in the world. Meanwhile, naga rise from the depths... the main boss of the expansion would be Azshara. Her fight ends up with her escaping and overloading Maelstrom with so powerful energy, that it brings Legion's attention. Legion happens more or less in the same way. Then instead of BfA, we could have Azshara and Old God expansion resurfacing.

  14. #54
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Aman'thul knows the entire timeline from pretty much day 1
    since he literally get killed and trapped as dead spirit, that part is really questionable
    in fact he doesn't even know about the void that spawn old gods, since he was horrified with the idea that a titan soul can be corrupted and didn't believe it (even if it is literally true as proven by Sargeras and what drove him mad)
    U can argue he knew general guideline of events, which also bronze dragon know: general guideline, but to know exact details? no he doesn't, and again for sure he probably doesn't even bother to know minor details about tiny creatures like dwarfs, wow humans of course are the epitome of everything so he knows every single cell in their bodies because they are awesome and everything exist to show how amazing they are -.-
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  15. #55
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    since he literally get killed and trapped as dead spirit, that part is really questionable
    in fact he doesn't even know about the void that spawn old gods, since he was horrified with the idea that a titan soul can be corrupted and didn't believe it (even if it is literally true as proven by Sargeras and what drove him mad)
    U can argue he knew general guideline of events, which also bronze dragon know: general guideline, but to know exact details? no he doesn't, and again for sure he probably doesn't even bother to know minor details about tiny creatures like dwarfs, wow humans of course are the epitome of everything so he knows every single cell in their bodies because they are awesome and everything exist to show how amazing they are -.-
    For someone who knows and has accepted their own destiny, such a sacrifice isn't really a big deal. Aman'thul likely has no concept of free will - he does as his foreknowledge of events dictates, knowing the outcome well ahead of time. The Void is a force beyond the Titan's ken and understanding, outside of Aman'thul's knowledge save where they touch on the physical universe. Aman'thul pointedly wasn't horrified by the idea than a Titan soul could be corrupted - he seemed to know it was possible, and also knew that its death needn't be the only outcome (a point later proved with Azeroth herself). Sargeras was aghast, but Sargeras doesn't know how things are going to play out, either. I would imagine Aman'thul's knowledge likely dwarfs that of Nozdormu, as well; since Nozdormu's knowledge was necessarily bound in a precise goal and specific context. Not to mention that the Titans commissioned a powerful artifact, the Discs of Norgannon, to quite literally record all of Azeroth's history as it occurred for their review later on. Presumably the Chronicle is reflective of that record as well.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  16. #56
    The Fel Horde. They are supposed to be an extremely powerful force, but they got rolled over by both Illidan in WC3 and the Alliance/Horde in TBC, now we don't even see them anymore. I mainly blame their poor leadership so it would have been interesting to see new fel orc leaders being introduced who are actually competenent and can bring the clan back to greatness. I would have loved to see them playable or become a skin for orcs.

    Some big known WC3 characters got shafted as raid bosses and haven't done much of notice in the actual game. They attempt to do more something with these wasted characters in Shadowlands (Kael, Vashj, Kel'Thuzad) but they can't seem to properly write them at all. They also wasted Tichondrius badly as a random boss in Nighthold while he is supposed to be a high ranking dreadlord.

    Zul'jin was an amazing character for the little time he showed his face. I wish he was more involved in the story rather than just getting released as a boss fight while he hasn't done anything but open the gates to his home. Also the forest trolls should have more involvement with the Horde where the Revantusk tribe becomes playable.

    Archimonde is a character that didn't need to come back, he had a good ending in WC3. But if he was to come back then they shafted him hard in WoD and should have been given a much bigger role in Legion instead. He should have been the one taking over the Legion after Kil'jaeden gets defeated and sends them all out even more aggresively.

    Lei Shen should have had more presence throughout all of MoP. He should have secretly formed an alliance with Garrosh and then leave him to his fate where he gets his ass handed in Orgrimmar, with Throne of Thunder being the final raid and have Lei Shen his time to shine.

    Murmur, considering his power level its surprising that he was dealt with so easily in a dungeon.

    AU Grommash has never really felt like a villain while he was obviously supposed to be one. WoD had a lot of problems storywise with one of them failing to portray the Iron Horde as an actual threat and we don't see anything of Grom's leadership.

  17. #57
    Elemental Lord sam86's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    For someone who knows and has accepted their own destiny, such a sacrifice isn't really a big deal.
    unless they shitconned chronicles themselves, didn't chronicles show that entire pantheon of titans didn't know about void lords?
    The beginning of wisdom is the statement 'I do not know.' The person who cannot make that statement is one who will never learn anything. And I have prided myself on my ability to learn
    Thrall
    http://youtu.be/x3ejO7Nssj8 7:20+ "Alliance remaining super power", clearly blizz favor horde too much, that they made alliance the super power

  18. #58
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sam86 View Post
    unless they shitconned chronicles themselves, didn't chronicles show that entire pantheon of titans didn't know about void lords?
    The Titans learned about the actions of the Void Lords shortly after Sargeras did, although to what degree Aman'thul was aware of what was occurring is unknown. There's a reason Sargeras was appointed the protector of the Pantheon, after all; an odd thing to have given the nature and power of the Titans.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #59
    Murmur is the first one that comes to my mind, although it is less of an antagonist and more of an elemental adversary.

  20. #60
    Edwin Van Cleef deserved more story.. but I don't think Zul'jin got the right build up for what he did. He rallied a bunch of troll tribes together by simply being better than them. Went to their homes and challenged every big wig troll guy around and beat them at their own chosen challenge to prove he was just plain BETTER. And how do we see him in game? just another Troll leader in the Troll raid for that expansion.

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