are "tier list" philosophies/mindsets bad for the game?

[Nachtigal]

edit: i am so sorry i posted this in raids & dungeons and I meant general discussions....pls close mod


i've seen it alot now in Wow and in diablo 3 on how to rank specs and classes (and in D3 for certain builds). i also saw it in the weeks leading up to the release of BC classic.....

does the mentality of slapping a tier ranking to a spec harm the game as a whole? People not being taken into content solely because they play a supposed "C" or "D" or "F" tier spec? under representation of certain specs because people do not want to play a spec that is plastered all over the internet as low tier?

i suppose it is admirable to test, document, find out, and acknowledge a spec's short comings compared to others of the same role, therefore pointing out that one is clearly superior over the other....but is that really a good thing to do in a game like WOW?

I think it’s only natural that players are interested in finding the best combos for best performance. I think it should be encouraged.

However the problem occurred when people took these lists, got swept up in the excitement of pushing to be the best, and basically echo chambered the toxic parts of min/max culture into becoming the “normal” way to do things.

Instead of realizing the many different ways that exist to defeat a boss, there was now only one way, the best way. And unfortunately the best way isn’t always the most fun way.

Now we got people that will sit and shill the same tired old rhetoric of “its my time I don’t want to waste it” within a video game made to do nothing more than that which they’re trying to prevent.

It’s relevant amongst those who live that way, but to the rest of us who are just there to clear content at our own pace, they just come off as rude.

TL;DR: It wasn’t a problem until the community twisted it into a problem.

[Kathranis]

Sounds horrible.

Imagine not knowing how to improve and just going by feeling. Also, Final Fantasy has no API and still has a damage meter.

FFXV also has way fewer things to manage and balance. There are no specs or talents or gems or really any playstyle customization deeper than your choice of Job.

[Caerrona]

Now we got people that will sit and shill the same tired old rhetoric of “its my time I don’t want to waste it” within a video game made to do nothing more than that which they’re trying to prevent.

Now here is where your argument falls flat. You are basically saying that your (you) time is more valuable than mine because you want to play a f tier spec. Fine, play what you want BUT don't expect other people to agree with you.

My time is MORE valuable (to me) than yours is to you. You are just angry that I'm not catering to you. (Not necessarily me but people you were talking about.)

Play with like minded people, solves every complaint.

[Fenrys]

Now here is where your argument falls flat. You are basically saying that your (you) time is more valuable than mine because you want to play a f tier spec. Fine, play what you want BUT don't expect other people to agree with you.

My time is MORE valuable (to me) than yours is to you. You are just angry that I'm not catering to you. (Not necessarily me but people you were talking about.)

Play with like minded people, solves every complaint.

There aren't any f-tier specs though. Even specs that are memed upon are actually really good in their niches (e.g. feral is one of the top single target specs, and survival pumps on AoE). There is not such a wide chasm between specs such that player skill is less important than the spec they play. Therefore it is reasonable to want people to not be myopic in what specs they pick. The appropriate forum for combatting that myopia is one like the present - rather than bug people in-game about their choices however. At the end of the day, they can choose who they want, but they might be hurting themselves to have such a limited view of what is good!

[Diaphin]

The existence of tier lists are the failure of the developers, not of the community.

What Tier Lists do is to measure how well a given class performs for their role in a given form of content. Tier Lists usually take into account the different strengths and weaknesses a given class has and then compare them to the needs of a given form of content.

If a given class is just too lacking compared to others in given forms of content, its on the developers who undertuned the class.

[LedZeppelin]

all specs in the game are currently playable. some are better than others but its come a long way since vanilla when some specs where just awful. definitely where "pick something you like" will be good.

[Diaphin]

https://www.darklegacycomics.com/558

Do you blame that mindset on Blizzard?

Over the top...I know...but to the point.

If you know about a perfectly balanced MMO where ppl don't do this shit, let us know. Also...I think in MMos and Wow there are ppl who don't actually give a shit about it and play a specc they enjoy. I know I am one of them.

https://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/

Only that the bottom dps actually does nearly 30% less dps than the top.

[Rubim]

https://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/

Only that the bottom dps actually does nearly 30% less dps than the top.

That list is not that useful.

https://www.wowhead.com/news/analysi...st-10th-323850

Best DPS for raids are Afflic and Arms.

[Nachtigal]

https://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/

Only that the bottom dps actually does nearly 30% less dps than the top.

noxxic lmfao. You can clear ALL content with ANY spec. There is not a single spec in the game that you would fail at a boss or prevent you from getting cutting edge because you took one or two of them. If you're competing for WF though, that's very different. I hope one day people will learn that just because a spec wasn't utilized in the WF race doesn't mean it's a worthless class. They're competing at a much lower iLvl than anybody else, and that is why they do what they do. They have much narrower margins to work with. These margins do NOT affect the rest of the mythic community, unless they're willingly imposed upon themselves. Basically comes down to "Crap I don't wanna look like I don't know what I'm talking about, so I'll just mimic what the WF raiders do/say"... Yikes.

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The existence of tier lists are the failure of the developers, not of the community.

What Tier Lists do is to measure how well a given class performs for their role in a given form of content. Tier Lists usually take into account the different strengths and weaknesses a given class has and then compare them to the needs of a given form of content.

If a given class is just too lacking compared to others in given forms of content, its on the developers who undertuned the class.

That's some toxic logic. Tier lists exist explicitly because of the community. It is the community who wanted the information, and it was the community who decided to use it. It is the community again that uses this information in a way that is actually toxic. But obviously those that are toxic aren't going to see what I'm saying, so they'll just disagree and say some toxic stuff back xD

[Diaphin]

noxxic lmfao. You can clear ALL content with ANY spec. There is not a single spec in the game that you would fail at a boss or prevent you from getting cutting edge because you took one or two of them. If you're competing for WF though, that's very different. I hope one day people will learn that just because a spec wasn't utilized in the WF race doesn't mean it's a worthless class. They're competing at a much lower iLvl than anybody else, and that is why they do what they do. They have much narrower margins to work with. These margins do NOT affect the rest of the mythic community, unless they're willingly imposed upon themselves. Basically comes down to "Crap I don't wanna look like I don't know what I'm talking about, so I'll just mimic what the WF raiders do/say"... Yikes.

Yeah you can. But there are strong difference between how efficent a class is in clearing the content or not. That difference where identified by math. Math does not give a fuck about your feelings.

That's some toxic logic. Tier lists exist explicitly because of the community. It is the community who wanted the information, and it was the community who decided to use it. It is the community again that uses this information in a way that is actually toxic. But obviously those that are toxic aren't going to see what I'm saying, so they'll just disagree and say some toxic stuff back xD

How so? Like, did the community leak toxicity into the data code of the game which suddenly made classes perform differently strong in different forms of content? And like, its not even new, it actually got better. Nowadays you can get into every form of content with every class, for some lower performing classes it is just marginally different depending on the current pool of applicants for a given form of content you want to participate in in pugging. Try to apply for a raid as a retri paladin in classic, lol.

[Coals]

noxxic lmfao. You can clear ALL content with ANY spec. There is not a single spec in the game that you would fail at a boss or prevent you from getting cutting edge because you took one or two of them. If you're competing for WF though, that's very different. I hope one day people will learn that just because a spec wasn't utilized in the WF race doesn't mean it's a worthless class. They're competing at a much lower iLvl than anybody else, and that is why they do what they do. They have much narrower margins to work with. These margins do NOT affect the rest of the mythic community, unless they're willingly imposed upon themselves. Basically comes down to "Crap I don't wanna look like I don't know what I'm talking about, so I'll just mimic what the WF raiders do/say"... Yikes.

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That's some toxic logic. Tier lists exist explicitly because of the community. It is the community who wanted the information, and it was the community who decided to use it. It is the community again that uses this information in a way that is actually toxic. But obviously those that are toxic aren't going to see what I'm saying, so they'll just disagree and say some toxic stuff back xD

You can clear all content with any spec but a raid group can't clear all content with any spec. It simply is tuned to high on mythic for that for better or worse.

Would the game be better if it was made easier to allow for more freedom? Perhaps... but perhaps not it would change a lot of things is the only certainty I can see.

[Diaphin]

You can clear all content with any spec but a raid group can't clear all content with any spec. It simply is tuned to high on mythic for that for better or worse.

Would the game be better if it was made easier to allow for more freedom? Perhaps... but perhaps not it would change a lot of things is the only certainty I can see.

I mean, its mostly a tuning problem and people should stop acting like it is a new one to be honest. It actually got better. Compare trying to find a group a group as a Retri Paladin back in Vanilla with todays meta mentality. And like, at least modern metas are based on math, back in the day they would often be based on hearsay or subjective perceptions.

[Peacemoon]

In my experience people often blame their class when they should actually blame themselves, reflect and get better.

It’s only in the upper echelons of extreme difficulty where class matters anywhere near as much as players think it does.

Put any class and spec in the hands of a competent player and they will easily achieve any goal they want.

[Azerate]

Tier lists and rankings have existed since forever and will continue to exist as long as mankind exists. A world in which people would not care about picking the better thing over the worse thing is nothing more than fantasy. Of course that doesn't mean people won't also try out 'weaker' builds/classes just to spice things up, but it's understandable that for their main progression they want something good to play.