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  1. #21
    The Patient
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    Jun 2010
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    Yeah the it depends thing is a big one...

    In retail wow since most classes have at most a slight different and most players don't play at a level where that slight difference means fucking anything yeah it's a detriment.

    In Classic atm where we literally have a solved game and there are specs that are measurably worse than others..playing the bad class is you voluntarily picking a bad character.
    Even then Tier lists are usually who's mathematically the steongest. In Marvel vs Capcom 3 the agreed tierlist has Crimson Viper as the top character period...but the execution required to play her well makes her generally unused versus easier to use characters like Vergil and Wolverine
    Super Smash Bros Melee sounds like a an extreme version of MvC3's tier list then.

    To give you a brief idea, over two-thirds of the 25 character SSBM roster are trash. Some trash is better than others and can win a tournament maybe once in a blue moon. But the overwhelming majority of SSBM tournaments over the ages have been won by only one of five characters, in order from worst to best: Sheik, Falco, Jigglypuff, Marth and Fox.

    Fox is basically Crimson Viper, where he's unquestionably the best character but has to be played to perfection to win a match.

    This had actually spawned a meme prediction (20XX) of a hypothetical dystopian future where all Melee players have mastered playing Fox and where matches are decided purely by port priority.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Clbull View Post
    Super Smash Bros Melee sounds like a an extreme version of MvC3's tier list then.
    ...KIIINDA the thing with Viper is she has this really REALLY insane cancel mechanic and EX move thing that no one else has so played at an almost INHUMAN level she can destroy most players but no one really has the execution required to make that happen. Hell these days one of the top players uses a team of Chun Li (REALLY low tier), Morrigan (Mid Tier with High Execution), and Phoenix (an entirely different can of worms) and his whole strat is to spam Chun's air kick to stay in the air, spam Morrigan's meter building assist and then get Phoenix to Dark Phoenix SUPER early and then win. Marvel's team mechanic tosses a wrench in a lot of tier lists where bad characters might have some fun strat to get to work or characters like Phoenix Wright (Not to be confused with Phoenix) with a good assist team can dominate a lot of players but it requires a LOT of set up and a LOT of luck.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzek View Post
    A meta will still form even if you were able to get rid of em.
    i believe this to be true. Players will always be able to mathematically determine what the better performing spec is depending on role, in WOW at least.
    I just wish sometimes it wasn't the case.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Shin0mura View Post
    i've seen it alot now in Wow and in diablo 3 on how to rank specs and classes (and in D3 for certain builds). i also saw it in the weeks leading up to the release of BC classic.....

    does the mentality of slapping a tier ranking to a spec harm the game as a whole? People not being taken into content solely because they play a supposed "C" or "D" or "F" tier spec? under representation of certain specs because people do not want to play a spec that is plastered all over the internet as low tier?

    i suppose it is admirable to test, document, find out, and acknowledge a spec's short comings compared to others of the same role, therefore pointing out that one is clearly superior over the other....but is that really a good thing to do in a game like WOW?
    Nah. Most people don't give a flying fuck about tier lists and play what they want.

    If your are focused an top end raiding/endgame ANYWHERE you will have to deal with tier list and classes/builds that are just not viable because you need the best you can do to do it this way.

    Point: In TBC there are tons of Moonkins and Retris, In retail are still a bunch of surv hutners. Both in high end. Maybe not top end Wirld first stuff. Anywhere else: Play whatever you like, but expect it to be more difficult in PuGs and even ther only sometimes because balance is not as bad as people make it out in wow.
    Wow is at least honest i can tell it to your face. In FF14 i have to lie to you if you play something bad becuase i am not allowed to tell you, that you are not doing damage... and there ARE tier lists there too btw.

    TLDR: Certain content needs certain stuff. At least in top top end. Everywhere else... play what you like nearly noone cares. Everyone knows surv is not the best. But it is no nonviable. An that is something everyone knwos too.

  5. #25
    Tier lists are just a general power ranking, they are usually based on performance or ability.
    So say D3 tierlists are pretty much always build on GR level and/or t16 farming. Higher tier characters can get to higher GR levels with easier to acquire sets or sometimes multiple sets capable of the climb.
    For fighting games tier lists are usually based on tools and advantages in a fight, high tier characters will have access to 3 frame pokes, more normals to press, faster recovery on powerful abilities, sometimes down to frame traps or the ability to create 50/50 situations. Low tier characters will lack these tools or sometimes be very niche.

    This is not to be confused with tier lists based more on opinion. Some people might swap and S or an A tier, but on pure opinion lists ranking aren't based on measurable metrics.

    For the FGC I think most people play what they want, personal style counts for a lot. There will always be grappler or boxer players regardless of how good those characters are.
    D3 id say people play to their goals, but personal play does weigh heavily. If a person wants to get the very highest GR they can either solo or a group, they may consult a tier list.

    Wow does have a bit of a problem though, mainly the community gate keeping is the issue.
    Last edited by StillMcfuu; 2021-07-27 at 02:47 PM.

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