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  1. #41
    Legendary! Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    And then neglecting to mention that it took the best progressive guilds in the game months to clear the content. It obviously wasn't intended to be cleared by most players easily and on day 1 (and wouldn't have been able to now either). Most guilds are still filling out gear slots from Kara. We were in Kara week 1 and still need plenty of gear for our core 25. And everyone knows that the tryhards just want to power through content ASAP and then sit here and bitch about having nothing to do for a year.

    If you want all TBC content out in the first 12 months, by all means encourage 2.5 month phases. If you actually want to enjoy the game and don't have 12 hours/day to play, maybe pace yourselves. I promise you that, if you're already fully decked in t4/BiS, are sitting on honor cap, have all season 1 pieces, maxed professions, etc. that you are in the very small minority of players.
    Intent aside, cause Classic is not how things was in the past, there is no neglecting that people used alot of time on raid progression in the past. Yes, it happen, but it is beside the point.

    The point of "tier 5 at launch" is that TBC was cool, because the initial progression and attunement, allowed for ALOT of work to be done in the first phase. It is amazing to work on so much at the start, even without doing much raiding. It allowed to progress on a number of raids at the same time, creating a very unique raiding experience, that never happened again. Instead of focusing on 1 raid, you took a few bosses from each and progressed from there.

    That is the experience being advocated for, simple as that. This is not about "elites" vs "casuals" or "people with time" vs "people with life", its about creating 2 different player experiences, one where you get things in small bites vs one where you get a huge cake, that is nearly impossible to take in one bite, so you can eat it in a varied amount of ways.
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  2. #42
    Tier 5 was in at launch. It was also broken. Morogrim was impossible and many of the SSC fights went through major changes before the place was completely revamped. Tk, too -- launch Al'ar required a 40-man raid with 15 out of instance warlocks putting up soul stones. The only guild that got more than one Vashj kill had to use this trick on Vashj. Solarian's health total was too high and I think there were 3 bombs at a time instead of one. Kael'thas was recording threat totals from the beginning and would kill all of your healers before targeting the tank. Hell, Hyjal was understood to be in the game at launch, too,though no one ever accessed it before the Tier 6 patch since Kael was impossible.

    Personally, I would've loved to see them bring it back in those forms... but when you're playing an expansion with tuning from the final patch, you can't really expect the original experience, now can you?
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  3. #43
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Why is T5 content bad again?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    Why is T5 content bad again?
    why are you asking inane questions

  5. #45
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellihs View Post
    why are you asking inane questions
    I'm asking a rhetorical question in an inane thread. I just wanna hear what stupid reasons someone has. You don't want T5 content because the "try hards" will clear it faster than you can walk into kara. Before you even kill Shade of Aran by having your raid leader play Shade of Aran Chant on Discord, these people would have cleared Sunwell. We're going by Dark Souls rules here in that if you have the skill and foresight to kill a boss then you deserve the rewards. Does that cause players to leave the game when they finished the content? No... no it doesn't. Players leave the game because they stopped paying the monthly fee. This is a 15 year old game with no new content that's still charging the same fee as playing on Shadowlands, which is about $180 a year. People are going to clear it as fast as possible and then quit to go play some other game, saving themselves money. You want to slow down how quickly the content is exposed then watch as people quit the game faster. That's how Shadowlands is doing it and it clearly isn't working. if anything you should ask Blizzard to lower the monthly fee for classic players since that might help with player retention.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    I'm asking a rhetorical question in an inane thread. I just wanna hear what stupid reasons someone has. You don't want T5 content because the "try hards" will clear it faster than you can walk into kara. Before you even kill Shade of Aran by having your raid leader play Shade of Aran Chant on Discord, these people would have cleared Sunwell. We're going by Dark Souls rules here in that if you have the skill and foresight to kill a boss then you deserve the rewards. Does that cause players to leave the game when they finished the content? No... no it doesn't. Players leave the game because they stopped paying the monthly fee. This is a 15 year old game with no new content that's still charging the same fee as playing on Shadowlands, which is about $180 a year. People are going to clear it as fast as possible and then quit to go play some other game, saving themselves money. You want to slow down how quickly the content is exposed then watch as people quit the game faster. That's how Shadowlands is doing it and it clearly isn't working. if anything you should ask Blizzard to lower the monthly fee for classic players since that might help with player retention.
    Except this is not Dark Souls. Its an MMO-RPG and games like these require a critical mass of players to stay and to be of value to the playerbase. Else you will get ghost town servers sooner than later.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    And then neglecting to mention that it took the best progressive guilds in the game months to clear the content.
    News flash: It's not 2007 anymore. "best progressive guilds" in 2007 are absolute shitters compared to modern players. Even dad guilds are clearing new content in a matter of weeks.

    T4 raids are not disappearing when T5 comes out. Cry more.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    I don't understand the mentality also that people want people to wait for them to catchup because they were late/slow and only now starting raiding, it's not as if the T4 raids are going away and with very valuable items from Gruul/Maggy it will continue to be farmed until WOTLK.
    It's because they aren't "late" or "slow"

    You're assuming that people leveled as quickly as you. It took me over a week to hit level 70 playing 5-6 hours a day min every day. Some people don't play that much or they can't every day. Some people MIGHT only be able to play 4 hours on Tues-Thurs and maybe more on the weekend. No reason to screw over the normal players just because people like myself or those who play even more than I do have already cleared the content.

  9. #49
    Weeb Queen Video Games's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    It's because they aren't "late" or "slow"

    You're assuming that people leveled as quickly as you. It took me over a week to hit level 70 playing 5-6 hours a day min every day. Some people don't play that much or they can't every day. Some people MIGHT only be able to play 4 hours on Tues-Thurs and maybe more on the weekend. No reason to screw over the normal players just because people like myself or those who play even more than I do have already cleared the content.
    Nobody is screwed. This isnt retail. People will run t4 when sunwell is out just like in 2008

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    News flash: It's not 2007 anymore. "best progressive guilds" in 2007 are absolute shitters compared to modern players. Even dad guilds are clearing new content in a matter of weeks.

    T4 raids are not disappearing when T5 comes out. Cry more.
    Must be the players that are better, if the dad guilds of today are doing it.

    Def not the content (final patch version vs initial patch), addons, weak auras, frame rates, internet speed, hardware, monitors, boss-knowledge, mechanics known, etc.

    Oh wait, that's exactly what it is.

    Guess we could argue that the Wright brothers were "absolute shitters" compared to the people that work at "Boeing," since we don't seem to care about context or anything.

    Lolz players need to go back to fortnite with their 'i so good' attitudes as they watch asmongold.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    It's because they aren't "late" or "slow"

    You're assuming that people leveled as quickly as you. It took me over a week to hit level 70 playing 5-6 hours a day min every day. Some people don't play that much or they can't every day. Some people MIGHT only be able to play 4 hours on Tues-Thurs and maybe more on the weekend. No reason to screw over the normal players just because people like myself or those who play even more than I do have already cleared the content.
    So because some people are extremely casual Blizzard should delay launch content for months so they can catch up, because apparently they can't just do the raids whenever they get there like they would have done in the original TBC? Instead of catering the game to those who are actively playing it, they should cater the raiding specifically to those who don't have enough time to do it in the first place?

    Let's release raids around casuals, if we give them 6 months they will be ready and meanwhile all the people who were ready in a week can just stand around scratching their asses for the next couple months? Impossible for the slow levellers to just do the T4 raids when they are ready and let the active players continue with their progression, like they did in 2007?
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2021-07-30 at 05:20 PM.
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  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Video Games View Post
    Nobody is screwed. This isnt retail. People will run t4 when sunwell is out just like in 2008
    I mean... yes people will still be running T4 when Sunwell comes out, but also like... they're probably trying to minimize the amount of people that are STUCK raiding T4 when Sunwell comes out.
    Good example is with heroic dungeon attunement. I leveled up slightly slower than the more hardcore people, so, by the time I had hit level 70, nobody wanted to farm dungeons for rep any longer. I had to wait about 3 weeks after hitting 70 for people in my guild to want to run dungeons again, and that's just dungeons. There were plenty of issues of people not wanting to have to go back and attune people for older content in TBC, and gear progression is possibly kinda important? I don't know until we see where the T5 content leaves us, but word right now is that T4 BiS tanks are getting smacked by Hydross. Imagine it's only miserable for people who don't have T4 BiS.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Rezwalker View Post
    Sorry but you are the minority this time
    server are dying
    hard to join a H grp as dps
    and 3 25 man boss raid only is a freaking joke. 30 min of 25 man raiding per week is Unhealthy for the game
    Karazhan is not a raid its a 10 man normal donjon loot piniata
    there are plenty of heroics going. Servers aren't dying, but people just don't want to tank them

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    So because some people are extremely casual Blizzard should delay launch content for months so they can catch up, because apparently they can't just do the raids whenever they get there like they would have done in the original TBC? Instead of catering the game to those who are actively playing it, they should cater the raiding specifically to those who don't have enough time to do it in the first place?

    Let's release raids around casuals, if we give them 6 months they will be ready and meanwhile all the people who were ready in a week can just stand around scratching their asses for the next couple months? Impossible for the slow levellers to just do the T4 raids when they are ready and let the active players continue with their progression, like they did in 2007?
    Uhhh... yes... they would release the content around casuals considering that the majority of people playing WoW have always been the "casuals"
    Your sub is worth the same as their sub. Nobody is asking for 6 months either lol. And, from the current tuning of the T5 content on the PTR, it doesn't look like "catching up" will be that easy to do. They probably want to try to get as many people into the content as possible, and they also don't want to just rush to BT like they did in the original release.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    Uhhh... yes... they would release the content around casuals considering that the majority of people playing WoW have always been the "casuals"
    That's a dumb argument because we're talking about raiding, a content that casuals typically do not even take part in. But go on, you're just gonna dig yourself into agreeing with me or no longer replying.

    T4 BiS tanks are getting smacked by Hydross.
    Also, if people are dumb enough to not use resist gear for Hydross they will get smacked. It does not hit hard in good resist gear, the only issue on that fight will be the same as always, threat on phase switch.
    Last edited by Bigbazz; 2021-07-30 at 07:33 PM.
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  16. #56
    Weeb Queen Video Games's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    I mean... yes people will still be running T4 when Sunwell comes out, but also like... they're probably trying to minimize the amount of people that are STUCK raiding T4 when Sunwell comes out.
    Good example is with heroic dungeon attunement. I leveled up slightly slower than the more hardcore people, so, by the time I had hit level 70, nobody wanted to farm dungeons for rep any longer. I had to wait about 3 weeks after hitting 70 for people in my guild to want to run dungeons again, and that's just dungeons. There were plenty of issues of people not wanting to have to go back and attune people for older content in TBC, and gear progression is possibly kinda important? I don't know until we see where the T5 content leaves us, but word right now is that T4 BiS tanks are getting smacked by Hydross. Imagine it's only miserable for people who don't have T4 BiS.
    People were stuck doing kara because they either suck or didn't have the time to commit to 25 mans. It will be the same now. And oh no, people need gear from the previous tier to go into the next one! What a novel concept of keeping content evergreen instead of throwing raids away the second the new one comes out.

  17. #57
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    Except this is not Dark Souls. Its an MMO-RPG and games like these require a critical mass of players to stay and to be of value to the playerbase. Else you will get ghost town servers sooner than later.
    If Blizzard gave a damn about player retention then they wouldn't still be charging classic players the full monthly fee for a 15 year old game. If people stop playing the game it's because they don't want to pay $15 a month to log into the game once or twice a week. They'd rather play Final Fantasy online for $15 a month to experience a whole new game. Not to log in everyday to carry a casual player who boosted to 58 and has zero clue how to play their class. This is going to be the downside of bringing back old expansions in that we know there's a beginning and an end.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hctaz View Post
    It's because they aren't "late" or "slow"

    You're assuming that people leveled as quickly as you. It took me over a week to hit level 70 playing 5-6 hours a day min every day. Some people don't play that much or they can't every day. Some people MIGHT only be able to play 4 hours on Tues-Thurs and maybe more on the weekend. No reason to screw over the normal players just because people like myself or those who play even more than I do have already cleared the content.
    Then this isn't the game for them. Shadows is and you can see how well that worked out for Blizzard. Took me two months to level to 70 and that's because I didn't boost. I was leveling my professions and focusing on doing dungeons to honored so I can quest to revered. If you feel screwed because people are clearing the content fast then how do you think people like me feel when people boost to 58 and leave me behind? It's fine when it doesn't effect you but when it does then we gotta remake the game in your favor?
    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    there are plenty of heroics going. Servers aren't dying, but people just don't want to tank them
    Too many Heroics as normal runs are hard to find. If you want to advocate for a change in TBC then ask for dual specs and have it be free for hybrids. Epic flying is $5k and us hybrids have enough expenses on socketing and enchanting multiple sets of gear. If you can't find a tank or healer then that's because no hybrid wants to waste 100g to spec the way you want and then back to dps. Instead of trying to delay content because you're too slow.
    Last edited by Vash The Stampede; 2021-07-30 at 07:16 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Prozach View Post
    And then neglecting to mention that it took the best progressive guilds in the game months to clear the content. It obviously wasn't intended to be cleared by most players easily and on day 1 (and wouldn't have been able to now either). Most guilds are still filling out gear slots from Kara. We were in Kara week 1 and still need plenty of gear for our core 25. And everyone knows that the tryhards just want to power through content ASAP and then sit here and bitch about having nothing to do for a year.

    If you want all TBC content out in the first 12 months, by all means encourage 2.5 month phases. If you actually want to enjoy the game and don't have 12 hours/day to play, maybe pace yourselves. I promise you that, if you're already fully decked in t4/BiS, are sitting on honor cap, have all season 1 pieces, maxed professions, etc. that you are in the very small minority of players.
    Um..if you were in Kara week 1 and you still miss PLENTY of gear, you're doing something wrong. I'm a very very VERY casual player. I've done Kara 3 times, Gruul and mag 2 times since launch and these were PUGs that the guild runs. Between that and heroics I've completely stacked myself gear wise. I'm not BiS in every slot, but quite a few of them are or at least like, 2nd 3rd on the BiS list. Real good shit in other words.

    The guildies that have been running the raids with several chars since week 1-2 have them ready for T5. I'm sorry but you're not maknig sense.
    And you're also omitting the fact that back then, everything had to be discovered. Now, we have a cheat sheet for every little bit of content. Every gear slot everything is known beforehand. Every strategy, everything. There is nothing to work out, just follow the plan and dont die.
    "DIE, INSECT!" - words to live by

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash The Stampede View Post
    If Blizzard gave a damn about player retention then they wouldn't still be charging classic players the full monthly fee for a 15 year old game. If people stop playing the game it's because they don't want to pay $15 a month to log into the game once or twice a week. They'd rather play Final Fantasy online for $15 a month to experience a whole new game. Not to log in everyday to carry a casual player who boosted to 58 and has zero clue how to play their class. This is going to be the downside of bringing back old expansions in that we know there's a beginning and an end.

    Then this isn't the game for them. Shadows is and you can see how well that worked out for Blizzard. Took me two months to level to 70 and that's because I didn't boost. I was leveling my professions and focusing on doing dungeons to honored so I can quest to revered. If you feel screwed because people are clearing the content fast then how do you think people like me feel when people boost to 58 and leave me behind? It's fine when it doesn't effect you but when it does then we gotta remake the game in your favor?

    Too many Heroics as normal runs are hard to find. If you want to advocate for a change in TBC then ask for dual specs and have it be free for hybrids. Epic flying is $5k and us hybrids have enough expenses on socketing and enchanting multiple sets of gear. If you can't find a tank or healer then that's because no hybrid wants to waste 100g to spec the way you want and then back to dps. Instead of trying to delay content because you're too slow.
    tbh rets and warr dps not being able to easily respec is a minor issue and won't change a lot. There just isn't a lot of stuff to get for tanks there in general and tanking is just really really hard in TBC. Furthermore it just isn't fun either to tank in tbc besides bosses.

    Prot palas have it slightly better and easier, but by this point most people have also realised, that pala tanks aren't really fun or easy in tbc either.

    But yeah dual spec could improve the situation a bit, but most won't utilise it once they realise that with even bis raid gear it's gonna be difficult in some dungeons. Not saying that I don't want dual spec. as a feral main tank and pvp resto I'd greatly appreciate that.

  20. #60
    Old God Vash The Stampede's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    tbh rets and warr dps not being able to easily respec is a minor issue and won't change a lot.
    You say that but how are the missing tanks? I'd have no problem specing tank to do Heroics, but mostly because I want Primal Nethers.
    There just isn't a lot of stuff to get for tanks there in general and tanking is just really really hard in TBC. Furthermore it just isn't fun either to tank in tbc besides bosses.
    Not only tanking isn't fun but dps matters a lot. Helps to be dps to grind. Helps to be dps to PvP. Helps to be dps to quest. Also out of 25 people in a raid you only really need 2 tanks for the most part. Out of the 10 people you need in Kara, you only need 2 but you can get away with just one tank. Dungeons need 1 tank per 5 people.
    But yeah dual spec could improve the situation a bit, but most won't utilise it once they realise that with even bis raid gear it's gonna be difficult in some dungeons. Not saying that I don't want dual spec. as a feral main tank and pvp resto I'd greatly appreciate that.
    If you're a feral druid then you're already both a tank and a dps. You'd need to respec to get the most of out both but you don't get terrible dps when in tank spec. It could also be that players need to stop rolling Mages and Warlocks and pick a class that can tank, but they won't.

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