What's so good about FFXIV?

[Frostfred]

Imo trash before a boss adds to the immersion and story. However, I'd argue that corpse runs after a wipe don't. I never minded them in WoW, though, except in some extreme cases. Almost only running raids with friends or my guild, there was always something going on - either talking about some boss mechanics in more depth or sharing ideas, or just joking around.


@ topic: There are two very small things that are usually not mentioned about the good parts of the game (at least I haven't seen it yet).

First, I like that the gear quality actually means something, at least at the lower levels. I got my first blue items yesterday from finishing the miner / botanist ARR storylines. My main gear is still completely white/grey, with I think one pink. Instances drop some greens now and then. No idea if the endgame is again "everything is always full purple and only ilvl differs" like in WoW, though, which I never liked. Though that's as said just a minor pet peeve.

Second (though very personal), it seems super common to just give the healer the player commendations in leveling dungeons, no matter what. I'm doing most instances as healer, so that's usually me.

[KrayZ33]

No, wiping and running back isn't what I'm talking about. That's what the dude I was responding to was talking about. I'm saying the QoL of wiping quickly isn't worth losing the sense of scale and immersion WoW raids have.

Well but that's what I'm talking about and you quoted (me)

But even if we focus on trash or the location:
Trash doesn't add anything. after the first time. You can have a storyline/quest for Sanctum where you walk around and do stuff inside the dungeon/raid and then fight the boss.
That's how FFXIV does it, but after doing it once, there is absolutely no need to clear the trash again week after week, there is no need to experience the story again and again each week.
It's a one time thing that gets used up.

When I'm moving around inside Alexander and I'm actually seeing him outside of the main-highlevel character hub, I'm certainly not thinking "oh, where am I how did I get in here, who is this" because the game has shown me where I am, what I'm doing and who it is properly beforehand.
But I don't have to be reminded of that every single week.

WoW would benefit from that approach as well because I still have no idea why we actually kill/destroy the guardian in Sanctum, who is fighting the Maw-dudes and defends a relic that is obviously important to the Jailer who wants to get his hands on it.
We walk in there, kill it, leave the relic unguarded and do nothing with it...as if we had some time to spare and rid the shadowlands of a corrupted/malfunctioning Guardian who could easily wreck havoc inside the Sanctum
Just to name one example.

We kill the Fatescribe, and it just happens, no one actually cares, why did we even do it? Why did we kill him? We can only vaguely guess why - because "With Torghast's power at his disposal, Roh-Kalo seeks to author a new fate for the Shadowlands." - duh.
We kill Kel'thuzad again, nothing happens.

etc. etc.
The bosses mean relatively little if they have no build up to them. I don't find that very immersive at all, as my attachment to the whole area/raid is very little.

[Segus1992]

Well but that's what I'm talking about and you quoted (me)

More quests leading up to raids would be good. WoW raiding is still more interesting overall as it is.

[Garretdejiko]

Should be clear that outside of ARR, even though people rank Stormblood the lowest of the current 3 expansion, it's not, "Shadowbringers is good, Heavensward is okay, and Stormblood is bad."

It's more, "Stormblood is good, Heavensward is great, Shadowbringers is phenomenal."

Even ARR is pretty decent. The whole, 'ARR is awful' meme has gotten way out of control. Like some kind of overcompensation by FF14 players to try and convince people to get through it. But it establishes a lot of the world building that makes the pay offs of the expansion good. And isn't that bad in its own right.

Yeah, I'm aware of the ARR meme, but I liked it. I mean, if you like the franchise, you'll love 14. Most people saying ARR is a slog, probably expected something more action based and fast paced, which is fine.

[NineSpine]

I personally like going through the villain's lair, breaking down the gates one by one and breaching the fortress, peeking into torture rooms, seeing training rooms, seeing the horrific experiments the villain has been working on or all of the treasures they've accumulated, and then travelling to the very apex of the lair to confront the villain. WoW raids are absolutely epic. No reason we can't have both the epic raid zone and the spectacular FFXIV style boss fights (no, alliance raids don't count, they look dull compared to Blizzard's).

I appreciate the you like doing those things, but if you give me a choice between a complex, interesting villain who is three dimensional and feels like a genuine threat to people I care about in the game.... or fancy pathways of trash to go through to get to a bland, boring, mustache-twirling villain whose motivations and actions don't matter... I'll take the former.

This is why these isolated comparisons don't make a lot of sense. Are the normal/savage/trial raid instances small and isolated to the boss fights? Yes. However, the big villains in FF14 have dungeons that lead up to the trial, where we see all the things you are talking about, not to mention that we are treated to competent cutscenes and complex characters and actual stakes. The raids also include whole damn storylines with missions, sometimes dungeons, and character development between them. All of these things establish exactly what you are talking about.

If you think the Return to Ivalice raids look dull, I don't think you are being terribly honest about this whole thing.

[Drindorai]

However, the big villains in FF14 have dungeons that lead up to the trial, where we see all the things you are talking about, not to mention that we are treated to competent cutscenes and complex characters and actual stakes. The raids also include whole damn storylines with missions, sometimes dungeons, and character development between them. All of these things establish exactly what you are talking about.

Exactly lol. Amaurot was fantastic. It was exactly everything Val was whining about and they just continue to insist that it's not happening in FF14 when they do that fairly consistently.

If you think the Return to Ivalice raids look dull, I don't think you are being terribly honest about this whole thing.

100% agreed. Val has been pretty dishonest toward FF14 every single time I see them posting about it. I don't even like FF12 and thought tactics was...okay, but the Alliance raids themselves always look pretty fantastic. The Ivalice raids are incredible. The Nier ones as well.

[NineSpine]

Trash adds to the experience, as does an actual environment rather than just having the bosses. You try comparing the popularity of Ulduar to any raid in FFXIV, and the reason it doesn't work is because Ulduar is a complete experience and not a set of bosses with platforms.

Yes I'm sure there are cool bosses in FFXIV too, in fact I'm even sure individual bosses are more memorable in general in FFXIV than in WoW, but that comparison doesn't really matter. PvE (specifically raiding) in WoW is more memorable overall.

No, wiping and running back isn't what I'm talking about. That's what the dude I was responding to was talking about. I'm saying the QoL of wiping quickly isn't worth losing the sense of scale and immersion WoW raids have.

There is no sense of scale and immersion to fighting some bland, one dimensional, pointless bad guys whose motivations and actions don't matter and who I could barely name before the actual raid if I could ever name them at all.

I have done most of the raids in WoW, and I cannot tell you why my character was in at least 80% of them. I can't tell you what the enemy did, why they were a threat, what their motivations were (aside from EVIL), etc..

Your argument is like saying that a battle scene between two well-established, complex, interesting characters is inherently less interesting than a massive battle sequence with no content or characters in it, just because it's bigger.

[meowfurion]

Again, your exact quoute is

If it's about cooldown in general, most GCD buttons are never on cooldown. If you mean you always have a button to press between GCDs, it's easily disprovable bullshit.

You're such a toxic, caustic, rude, gross user to interact with. Grow up.

[Drindorai]

Trash adds to the experience, as does an actual environment rather than just having the bosses. You try comparing the popularity of Ulduar to any raid in FFXIV, and the reason it doesn't work is because Ulduar is a complete experience and not a set of bosses with platforms.

Ulduar is awesome because the boss fights are awesome and because the environment is awesome. Not because of the trash lol

That said nearly half the boss encounters have no story behind them and I have no idea why we're killing them beyond them just being bad.

[Wrecktangle]

You can't rationalize away a design that feels bad for people. Game design is psychology. If it feels bad, it IS bad (for the person in question).

I mean, unless they're being irrational lol.

Absolute BiS in FF14 is not achievable by everyone, especially not people who don't want to do savage raids. However, the BiS for the content you like doing is easily identifiable, targetable, and achievable.

Agreed. This is in line with my stance.

In WoW, unless you are in the very small groups of players at the edges of mythic raiding or rated pvp, the BiS is functionally an infinite grind based RNG. You will never achieve it. The gameplay this encourages is to keep moving your goalposts until you are burnt out and ultimately start blaming the RNG as your chances or upgrades gets smaller and smaller and smaller. It encourages burnt out and resentment.

I'm fully supportive of minimizing the impact on RNG in gear acquisition in WoW. Whether that's badge vendors or some other system, that's fine with me.

Generally speaking, people like getting BiS for the content they like doing. It isn't about Tier 1 or Tier 2. People like being able to set achievable and tangible goals.

This is my entire argument. You can set whatever goal you want. If you're mentally incapable of setting BiS enough as a goal, that's not a game issue, that's a personal/player issue 100%. I haven't been convinced otherwise yet.

You can double weave even with 250 ping. The double weave lag 'problem' is caused by horrible, disgustingly bad client side code that you can fix with 2 methods.

You absolutely are not double weaving without glipping the GCD horribly at 250 ping. It's not even possible for most jobs at half that. Some of the slower ones can get away with it at ~100-120ms, but it's tight.

Do you have any insight into the fixes? I'd love to read more about them.

[NineSpine]

Exactly lol. [spoiler]Amaurot was fantastic. It was exactly everything Val was whining about and they just continue to insist that it's not happening in FF14 when they do that fairly consistently.

100% agreed. Val has been pretty dishonest toward FF14 every single time I see them posting about it. I don't even like FF12 and thought tactics was...okay, but the Alliance raids themselves always look pretty fantastic. The Ivalice raids are incredible. The Nier ones as well.

That whole sequence you are referencing was beautiful, some of the best video game storytelling in history. Such an amazing villain. The game manages to make you feel sorry for someone who wants to commit a genocide by showing you what he had and then how he lost it.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I appreciate the you like doing those things, but if you give me a choice between a complex, interesting villain who is three dimensional and feels like a genuine threat to people I care about in the game.... or fancy pathways of trash to go through to get to a bland, boring, mustache-twirling villain whose motivations and actions don't matter... I'll take the former.

These are not mutually exclusive. There is no reason why a game can't do both.

[NineSpine]

I mean, unless they're being irrational lol.



Agreed. This is in line with my stance.

I'm fully supportive of minimizing the impact on RNG in gear acquisition in WoW. Whether that's badge vendors or some other system, that's fine with me.

This is my entire argument. You can set whatever goal you want. If you're mentally incapable of setting BiS enough as a goal, that's not a game issue, that's a personal/player issue 100%. I haven't been convinced otherwise yet.

You absolutely are not double weaving without glipping the GCD horribly at 250 ping. It's not even possible for most jobs at half that. Some of the slower ones can get away with it at ~100-120ms, but it's tight.

Do you have any insight into the fixes? I'd love to read more about them.

You aren't arguing that the design is good. You are just arguing that people should do a better job of resisting the intent of the design. Those aren't the same point. I don't know what else to say, because you are basically arguing that "Ok, so when I'm full ilvl 200 I have the best gear I can get" and "I guess I'll stop when it feels like my gear is good enough" are the same thing and they just aren't.

- - - Updated - - -

These are not mutually exclusive. There is no reason why a game can't do both.

Yes, there are, because games are designed with limited resources. Everything you make comes at the expense of something else.

Furthermore, your idea negates the entire core design principle of trials, which is that they are intended to be a single boss fight. Putting trash in them and turning them into dungeons with one boss defeats their entire purpose.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

games are designed with limited resources.

So a game that rakes in hundreds of millions can't hire additional level artists and game designers? Uh huh.

Furthermore, your idea negates the entire core design principle of trials, which is that they are intended to be a single boss fight. Putting trash in them and turning them into dungeons with one boss defeats their entire purpose.

Who said anything about a dungeon with one boss?

[NineSpine]

So a game that rakes in hundreds of millions can't hire additional level artists and game designers? Uh huh.

That's not how anything works, at least not in the real world. You can't just throw money at things and make them bigger. MMOs already stretch the limits of organizational capacity for game design, especially the limits of designing a game that has any coherent vision.

A practical example is hiring more people to build a house. Eventually, you can't make progress by hiring more contractors. They eventually get in each others way and the job of organizing all of them ends up eating into the capacity for actual work. They are diminishing returns on adding labor after a certain point on any project.

Who said anything about a dungeon with one boss?

A trial is a single boss raid. You want to make me fight pointless trash before I get to the boss, for some bizarre reason, which just turns it into a dungeon with one boss.

[NineSpine]

It's another one of those places where people complain about something in WoW while giving XIV a pass.

People who aren't pushing world first or realm first or even full mythic clears within the tier say they're FORCED to do all these crazy things in WoW to get BiS and be geared and yadda yadda.

Then they come to XIV and say, "Oh, it's so nice here, I can just get Exarchic gear and be geared enough!"

I swear that half the complaints people have about WoW stem solely from how they look at and approach the game. Not because the game is forcing them into anything.

Do you genuinely believe that these two statements mean in the same thing:

"I can arbitrarily decide when it *feels* like I am geared enough"

and

"For the content I do, 200ilvl is the BiS"

Also, you are obviously ignoring the main mandatory content complaint in WoW, which is legendary gearing.

[NineSpine]

If you can't separate the two, that's not the fault of the game. If you're willing to accept "BiS for the content I'm doing" in one game, but you insist that another game somehow forces you to go vastly above and beyond what the content requires, that's a personal issue.

In the vast majority of cases, the "BiS for the content I am doing" in WoW is functionally a never-ending grind. That's the point. Why are you refusing to see the distinctions here, unless you just don't want to have an honest conversation?

For M+, BiS is reliant on your weekly cache, which makes it functionally never-ending.
For normal-heroic raiding, you will usually have to do M+ to stay competitive, and ultimately that makes your BiS never-ending.

Why do you insist that this is the same as a simple, achievable BiS goal based on the content you do? What is the point of being intentionally obtuse like this?

[Kuntantee]

That's not how anything works, at least not in the real world. You can't just throw money at things and make them bigger. MMOs already stretch the limits of organizational capacity for game design, especially the limits of designing a game that has any coherent vision.

A practical example is hiring more people to build a house. Eventually, you can't make progress by hiring more contractors. They eventually get in each others way and the job of organizing all of them ends up eating into the capacity for actual work. They are diminishing returns on adding labor after a certain point on any project.

How do you know WoW team is not understaffed? "Mythical man month" is a thing, but it's not a statement you can make all the time. Sometimes, a team is simply understaffed.

[NineSpine]

How do you know WoW team is not understaffed? "Mythical man month" is a thing, but it's not a statement you can make all the time. Sometimes, a team is simply understaffed.

I'm making a general statement about game design, not specifically stating anything about any team. I also was talking about the idea that FF14 can just make all their raids into giant zones without losing anything else, not about wow.

- - - Updated - - -

Because you're being extremely dishonest about it, that's why.

If you're just trying to do normal-heroic progression or something in WoW, the actual gear level required is relatively low. These are levels of gear that tend to be achievable in the game without extreme effort or time investment. If you feel compelled to go beyond that, and feel that you have to embark on a "Never-ending M+ farm" for some reason, that's not the fault of the game. That's something that you - or your social circles - are choosing to put upon yourselves.

You can't have that attitude in one game and then say, "Eh, this early level of gear is fine." in XIV. If you REALLY think you need your M+ grind perfect BiS in WoW to compete in normal/heroic raiding, then claiming that you see lower item level gear as being "My BiS for this level of play" only exposes a blind spot in your thinking.

See the shift you just did? You aren't saying that BiS is the same in both games anymore. You are saying that people shouldn't care about BiS. Those aren't the same point, and the latter point is worthless, as the reality is people like shooting for BiS.

Do you want to compare the two games, or do you want to shift the goalposts to a totally irrelevant argument about whether people should or should not want BiS?

This is like if I said "Burger King and steak are the same thing" and you argued they aren't and I changed the conversation about how people shouldn't want to eat red meat anyway.

[NineSpine]

Excuse me?

I never said BiS was the same in both games. My argument this entire time is that people claim they have to "farm forever" in WoW to get BiS despite aiming for content that doesn't require anywhere near that level of gear, and yet in XIV they'll say - just like you did - that a certain level of gear is, "BiS Enough".

You specifically took issue with my framing of how both games differ in this regard, so I don't know why you are pretending that you didn't.

One again, and repeating myself is getting really boring, the point here is that in FF14 BiS for the content you do is simple, easily achievable, and reasonably targetable for anyone that plays the game. In WoW, it is none of those things for the vast majority of players. That point has nothing to do with this esoteric, pointless argument that people should or shouldn't like getting BiS.

People like getting BiS for the content they like. FF14 makes this easy and achievable. WoW does not. Do you or do you not agree with that?

- - - Updated - - -

The point being that people's attitude toward the games is as much the problem as anything. You really think a normal or heroic raider in WoW NEEDS to farm M+ forever to do their target content? And if you do think that, then why are you ok with "Eh, this gear is good enough for my content." in another game?

Why do you keep conflating "Getting BiS" and "What you need to do target content"? Those aren't the same thing. This sophistry and pointless arguing is really boring. You don't like me, I get it, but this weird whiny crap where you just take issue with everything I say no matter what it is is awkward.