What's so good about FFXIV?

[Poppincaps]

Yeah, agreed. I'm kinda sitting here like, I have to be stupid or missing something critical?

Definitely not stupid, but you're missing a critical difference in the role that player perception plays into how they feel about each game. Also, the amount of things you have to do to get BIS in FFXIV is far less than the amount of things you have to do in WoW. These differences play into the differences in content.

In WoW, getting BiS is never really a waste for 2 reasons. 1. The Mythic + timer. The better gear you have, the faster you can run the dungeon or push to higher levels. It also gives you more leeway to carry if one of your players sucks. 2. Mythic raids are more difficult than Savage raids. I personally am not super experienced with Savage raiding, but the consensus seems to be that Savage is on par with the first half of a Mythic raid and Ultimates are on par or perhaps even more difficult than the final Mythic boss of a tier. It's quite likely that if you're going to do Ultimate, people are going to want you get try and get BiS, but it's unnecessary for most Savage content. Whereas in WoW raiding, the average raider needs all the help they can get to get Cutting Edge, so they'll want BIS.

[Martymark]

FF14's gameplay is kinda boring compared to WOW, but the story is good in FF14.

[Prozach]

Just a suggestion..

When two people argue back and forth it makes other people just close the thread instead of actually reading the conversation at hand..

This is true and I apologize for my part. It's difficult to voice an opinion, be immediately attacked, and then not respond accordingly. I was merely trying to illustrate that the surge of FF players just might not be coincidental and the product of a number of factors, some of which do in fact relate to other MMOs.

While I agree that the thread shouldn't be a "versus" conversation, it's impossible to have a discussion about the success or failure of a game without also considering competition within that genre. It stands to reason that, when one MMO fails, it's userbase will migrate to another. It's not really an apples/oranges dialogue. It's more like a green apples/red apples discussion and pretending one or the other doesn't exist seems kind of silly imo.

[Byleth]

While I agree that the thread shouldn't be a "versus" conversation, it's impossible to have a discussion about the success or failure of a game without also considering competition within that genre. It stands to reason that, when one MMO fails, it's userbase will migrate to another. It's not really an apples/oranges dialogue. It's more like a green apples/red apples discussion and pretending one or the other doesn't exist seems kind of silly imo.

Or you could, I dunno, just talk about whats good about FFXIV without bringing other MMO's into it. The OP never asked for comparisons.

On topic - I for one love the community focus of the game. Sometimes I just log into hang with my FC peeps and jump around the house while chatting. There is no push/need to get things done fast, so if you want a chill time you can have it.

[Swnem]

It is perfectly fine if people drop FF after being done with the story. That is a good point. The game doesn't string you along with infinite grinds or slot machines. If you did what you want, it's ok to leave with that good experience you had and return when there is more. Now, this is not to say there isn't a lot to do in the game. There is always a goal you can set yourself on,but that is completely on you. You make your fun.

Games that cynically force you to play every day are the problem. They make you feel like you are wasting your life doing some boring grind cause you have to, not cause you want to.

I think those players will be far happier with FF, which is not only a better quality product overall, but it's a game that respects your time and lets you get on with your life.

[kaminaris]

Yeah, I'm aware of the ARR meme, but I liked it. I mean, if you like the franchise, you'll love 14. Most people saying ARR is a slog, probably expected something more action based and fast paced, which is fine.

Hate the franchise, like Xiv. So its not a rule

[Garretdejiko]

Hate the franchise, like Xiv. So its not a rule

That's not what I said

[kaminaris]

That's not what I said

Reverse is also implied, I simply find Xiv to be completely different than franchise.

[Fenrys]

Obviously FFXIV is massively loved right now, and there must be good reason. I've really tried - genuinely tried to get into it, but its main selling points (story and jobs system) just don't really work for me. Is this a me-problem, in that its likely that I'm just not going to enjoy no matter how much time I put into it, or a needs-more-time-problem in that I need to push through some weak content to get to the good stuff?

Bear in mind that I love MMOs, particularly the higher end competitive aspect, and have only managed put in about 30 hours in to the game. In mmo terms this is definitely only skimming the surface.

[Garretdejiko]

Reverse is also implied, I simply find Xiv to be completely different than franchise.

But I didn't implied anything, I said what I said. Try again.

[kaminaris]

But I didn't implied anything, I said what I said. Try again.

Yep I know what you said, my point still stands.

[Algorath]

I'm trying it out now, and ngl, the combat is kinda boring atm for me. (Dragoon @ 38) - It's starting to get there, but I have a 1-2-3 rotation with an extra damage ability every 30 seconds. I'm sure it'll get better in time, but for now I am just relaxing to the max with it. It's so refreshing going into something completely blind again. Enjoy the journey, don't try to rush to max level like WoW and just have a feel about whether or not it's for you.

[Deus Mortis]

I'm trying it out now, and ngl, the combat is kinda boring atm for me. (Dragoon @ 38) - It's starting to get there, but I have a 1-2-3 rotation with an extra damage ability every 30 seconds. I'm sure it'll get better in time, but for now I am just relaxing to the max with it. It's so refreshing going into something completely blind again. Enjoy the journey, don't try to rush to max level like WoW and just have a feel about whether or not it's for you.

The combat does improve as you get higher level, you end up getting more moves that can be used off the global cooldown. I know when it comes to the class I play which is Dark Knight, the difference between low level dungeons and high level dungeons is night and day in how the class feels to play. As you have already stated just play the game at a nice and relaxed pace. You have until Nov till the expansion comes out so there is plenty of time to just enjoy the game.

[tikcol]

I'm trying it out now, and ngl, the combat is kinda boring atm for me. (Dragoon @ 38) - It's starting to get there, but I have a 1-2-3 rotation with an extra damage ability every 30 seconds. I'm sure it'll get better in time, but for now I am just relaxing to the max with it. It's so refreshing going into something completely blind again. Enjoy the journey, don't try to rush to max level like WoW and just have a feel about whether or not it's for you.

A easy way to see if you're going to like it is to click "P" and see the spells you'll unlock in the future, set a few of them in your bars even tho u can't use them and imagine how it's going to play

[Deus Mortis]

Obviously FFXIV is massively loved right now, and there must be good reason. I've really tried - genuinely tried to get into it, but its main selling points (story and jobs system) just don't really work for me. Is this a me-problem, in that its likely that I'm just not going to enjoy no matter how much time I put into it, or a needs-more-time-problem in that I need to push through some weak content to get to the good stuff?

Bear in mind that I love MMOs, particularly the higher end competitive aspect, and have only managed put in about 30 hours in to the game. In mmo terms this is definitely only skimming the surface.

It could be the game is just not for you, there is nothing wrong if that is the case. But there is a large agreement from a ton of players that ARR is far slower and for many not as enjoyable as future expansions when stuff starts picking up.

[BiggestNoob]

It is perfectly fine if people drop FF after being done with the story. That is a good point. The game doesn't string you along with infinite grinds or slot machines. If you did what you want, it's ok to leave with that good experience you had and return when there is more. Now, this is not to say there isn't a lot to do in the game. There is always a goal you can set yourself on,but that is completely on you. You make your fun.

Games that cynically force you to play every day are the problem. They make you feel like you are wasting your life doing some boring grind cause you have to, not cause you want to.

I think those players will be far happier with FF, which is not only a better quality product overall, but it's a game that respects your time and lets you get on with your life.

Yep, the game is very much player-driven, you choose things to do, and the game won't make you feel compelled to do anything. Better still, any particular piece of content you find interesting, if taken all the way, usually ends up with a bunch of rewards. I've seen streamers playing an unhealthy amount of triple triad, but hey they're having fun, and it's a nice little game with surprisingly difficult rule combos to play optimally. If you take it all the way you get a bunch of achievements, there's PvP triple triad for when you beat all the NPCs, and for collecting every card you get a mount (and a very rare one).

[Wrecktangle]

In WoW, getting BiS is never really a waste for 2 reasons. 1. The Mythic + timer. The better gear you have, the faster you can run the dungeon or push to higher levels. It also gives you more leeway to carry if one of your players sucks.

I'm not arguing that getting BiS is a waste. I'm arguing that the diminishing returns on "absolute BiS" should allow any rationally sound person to see that it's functionally identical to "BiS enough" especially if you measure it across a time/effort axis. The throughput difference between "absolute BiS" and "BiS enough" is trivial, yet the required commitment is staggeringly different. I actually believe this is valid design.

My argument here has always been I appreciate that WoW gives a route for people to chase that .001% DPS upgrade if they absolutely want too/have the time, but anyone who feels pressured/or unable to healthily determine limits here has a player issue, not a game issue.

Whereas in WoW raiding, the average raider needs all the help they can get to get Cutting Edge, so they'll want BIS.

The average raider isn't doing CE raiding though, unless you mean the average mythic raider? That aside, you're not getting "absolute BiS" without getting CE first, so your argument kind of falls flat here. You're entire prog goal is getting "BiS enough" lol further proving my point.

[Absintheminded]

I'm trying it out now, and ngl, the combat is kinda boring atm for me. (Dragoon @ 38) - It's starting to get there, but I have a 1-2-3 rotation with an extra damage ability every 30 seconds. I'm sure it'll get better in time, but for now I am just relaxing to the max with it. It's so refreshing going into something completely blind again. Enjoy the journey, don't try to rush to max level like WoW and just have a feel about whether or not it's for you.

lol by 60 you'll be working on your carpal tunnel with three combos, three jumps, and several more rotational abilities.

[Poppincaps]

I'm not arguing that getting BiS is a waste. I'm arguing that the diminishing returns on "absolute BiS" should allow any rationally sound person to see that it's functionally identical to "BiS enough" especially if you measure it across a time/effort axis. The throughput difference between "absolute BiS" and "BiS enough" is trivial, yet the required commitment is staggeringly different. I actually believe this is valid design.

My argument here has always been I appreciate that WoW gives a route for people to chase that .001% DPS upgrade if they absolutely want too/have the time, but anyone who feels pressured/or unable to healthily determine limits here has a player issue, not a game issue.



The average raider isn't doing CE raiding though, unless you mean the average mythic raider? That aside, you're not getting "absolute BiS" without getting CE first, so your argument kind of falls flat here. You're entire prog goal is getting "BiS enough" lol further proving my point.

I wasn't arguing whether BIS is a waste either, I was offering reasons for why there is a difference in player perceptions between the two games. If you deny that there is much heavier pressure in WoW towards min-maxing than there is in FF14 (not saying that's what you said, but you disregarded that portion of my post), then there's no point discussing further.

You're also grossly exaggerating. Upgrades in WoW are rarely .001% increases for BIS. The BIS covenant and soulbinds can be several % point differences. The BIS Shard of Domination can also play a large role. Here is an example: https://bloodmallet.com/chart/hunter...stingpatchwerk. The difference between the worst shard set and the best is almost a 7% difference in DPS. That's obviously massive when multiplied amongst an entire 20 man raid. If everyone wasn't BIS you'd effectively be 19 manning.

So basically, there are higher stakes in WoW as well as greater risk at doing poorly if you aren't chasing BIS. I also find that the increased effort required to get BIS makes it so there's more frustration towards people who don't chase BIS when things go wrong. Essentially, "I put in all these effort to get BIS and I'm still getting held back because everyone else is lazy."

[Wrecktangle]

If you deny that there is much heavier pressure in WoW towards min-maxing than there is in FF14, then there's no point discussing further.

I don't deny the pressure, I deny that it matters between "absolute BiS" gear vs. "BiS enough".

You're also grossly exaggerating. Upgrades in WoW are rarely .001% increases for BIS. The BIS covenant and soulbinds can be several % point differences.

But your covenant choice and soulbinds aren't gear, which was the focus of the discussion and comparison against FF14. I fully support the notion that soulbinds/covenants are a terribly balanced and poorly implemented system.

The BIS Shard of Domination can also play a large role. Here is an example: https://bloodmallet.com/chart/hunter...stingpatchwerk. The difference between the worst shard set and the best is almost a 7% difference in DPS. That's obviously massive when multiplied amongst an entire 20 man raid. If everyone wasn't BIS you'd effectively be 19 manning.

I haven't looked at anything for 9.1 and I unsubbed so I can't offer any insight into this. I don't know how they're acquired/chosen and how the RNG mill touches on it. That said, if it's anything like the Corruption system then it's an issue for sure.

I often find it's not always a great comparison to compare worst case to best case, but rather a separation within. Yes some people will pick the "wrong" choice in every possible scenario and thus be performing drastically sub-optimally, but that isn't a common occurrence, ESPECIALLY not at the CE level where information is shared.