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  1. #741
    Quote Originally Posted by srambo View Post
    nice dodge sonny....cya
    Come up with a better lie next time, Mr. 21 post account that joined a few days ago and spent their entire post history just mindlessly shitting on the game and insulting the developer.

  2. #742
    i already wrote my review, you didnt...i gave my reasons...you didnt

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    Quote Originally Posted by srambo View Post
    ill tell you whats wrong with the story IN MY OPINION, ok?.....its bloated with so much irrelevant crap and gibberish/banter just used as a timesink to prolong content that even the ok parts feel like you just wasted your time watching it all. i found it cheezy, with cheezy characters with cheezy jokes i didnt feel or care one bit about any of them... quests sending you around like an errand boy teleporting around the world so each person can tell you one sentence what happens next usually something totally irrelevant as well.

    ...i can feel the whole story is made to be (morally?) acceptable by ages 10 trough 70 and its slowly and poorly delivered non-interactively in a interactive medium of videogames. maybe its an age difference and im waaay too boomer for a kiddy-cartoonish anime mmo story but anyway, after one month of doing the story and buying the game i just felt like i wasted my time and money how unbearable and unfulfilling it was in the end to even try to finish it. especially after story being hyped up as the holy grail of ff14 it was a huge letdown, and it being so forced on the player and the only possible way to level and develop your character it ruined the whole game for me for good....and i really REALLY liked the raiding in it.


    o yea maybe i should play something i dislike for another month so i can say i dislike it for sure? do you weatch a tv show and after 2 episodes say "i dont like it", or you watch the whole thing, all seasons and then you say "ok i watched 5 season of a show i dont like so now i can for sure say i think its bad"....please stop with this crap.....you dont need to invest 10 years into something bad to find out its bad, ye?
    these are my opinions why i disliked the story....please quote or write yours

  3. #743
    Quote Originally Posted by srambo View Post
    i already wrote my review, you didnt...i gave my reasons...you didnt
    You gave zero specifics on anything, refuse to even confirm that you are telling the truth because you can't actually explain a plot point despite it being so bad or cheesy or whatever else, and then try to drastically change the subject when asked about it.

    I also didn't realize you were the guy who actually argued the game will die when Asmongold stops playing it, so that's pretty funny too.

  4. #744
    so you expect that i, who already wrote a post about my opinions....go into them further and in more detail, while you didnt write a single reason not even a vague one why the story is good? why is this?

  5. #745
    Quote Originally Posted by srambo View Post
    so you expect that i, who already wrote a post about my opinions....go into them further and in more detail, while you didnt write a single reason not even a vague one why the story is good? why is this?
    Just because you want to change the subject away from you lying about the game, new account, doesn't mean that's what I'm going to do.

    The ONLY actual specific detail you mentioned was that the story has you "teleporting around the world so each person can tell you one sentence." Which is both a total mischaracterization of what actually happens, but also examples of stuff happening SIMILAR to that are done in the very beginnings of the game.

    Still waiting for you to specifically tell me what you were doing in the story at level 64. I'll give you a hint: You were probably with Yugiri.

  6. #746
    Err, this is tilting pretty far into the 'being an asshole' half of the meter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soikona View Post
    The story is bad, that was my opinion in the first 10 minutes, after the first 30 minutes, after the first hour and after I finished it.
    I get what I think you're trying to say here, but... proudly declaring "I hated the story from the MINUTE I started it and NEVER stopped hating it!" is, uh... not really the best way to convince the people you want to share your opinion with that you're... worth... listening to. I'm an optimist, and I try to give people the benefit of the doubt whenever I can, sometimes to a naive extent. It's fine to not like the game or the story, I can't stress this enough. But if you're ten minutes out the gate, having talked to a grand total of zero major characters, or even dipped a toe into the plot beyond just walking around and having one conversation with Tuto Rial, your friendly neighborhood innkeeper, and you're already like "I hate this." then it's like... *throws hands up* what the fuck. How. Were you even giving it a chance? Did you want to?

    And it stains the rest of your experience that subsequent thirty minutes, hour, all the way to however long it took you to finish whatever you finished before you stopped playing. It just makes it seem like you came into the story ready to hate it, biased against this 'new' experience you were looking to try, and as soon as the hate flag was even slightly triggered, nothing else mattered, which isn't worthwhile to discussing the game. That's just how it reads to me. Feel free to correct me.

    On the other end of that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Drindorai View Post
    For a story, you absolutely can say that if you didn't finish the story, your opinion on its quality is worthless lol.
    Nooooot necessarily... For someone saying that this kind of stuff is not a black or white issue, this is tilting noticeably over into white. There is absolutely a point between the start of the story and the end of one where someone can say, meaningfully and validly, that they think it's not a good story and they didn't like it. I'm no writing genius, I'm not going to pretend I know exactly where that point is. It's definitely before the halfway mark of the story. And I want to say that if you're like a handful of hours or so into the story, you've probably hit that point by then. But it has to exist. Because being forced to reserve judgment until you've hit the back cover of a book is just as senseless to me as deriding that same book when you're barely past the front cover, especially when that book is as big as FFXIV.
    Last edited by CalamityHeart; 2021-08-30 at 12:34 PM.

  7. #747
    im waiting for you to write why you think the story is good vaguely like i wrote to you vaguely why i think the story is bad, and then we can geet deeper into a discussion,....but lets face it, you dont want any discussions....we touched your sensitive spot and now you gonna just repeat "tell me what you were doing in the story at level 64" over and over again and thats probably as far as you can intellectually go. it was a pleasure talking with you, as im sure it will be to the next person lucky enough to hear your opinion on something, altho we didnt hear any reasons ... like....at all.

  8. #748
    Quote Originally Posted by CalamityHeart View Post
    Nooooot necessarily... For someone saying that this kind of stuff is not a black or white issue, this is tilting noticeably over into white. There is absolutely a point between the start of the story and the end of one where someone can say, meaningfully and validly, that they think it's not a good story and they didn't like it. I'm no writing genius, I'm not going to pretend I know exactly where that point is. It's definitely before the halfway point of the story. And I want to say that if you're like a handful of hours or so into the story, you've probably hit that point by then. But it has to exist. Because being forced to reserve judgment until you've hit the back cover of a book is just as senseless to me as deriding that same book when you're barely past the front cover, especially when that book is as big as FFXIV.
    And as I, and others, have been saying all along, saying, "I didn't like what of the story I saw" is perfectly acceptable. I know people who are like that and quit before finishing ARR. But to then generalize it into, "The story of FF14 is bad" is where people push back against it, especially if you only saw about 20% of it.

    There is a notable difference between, "I didn't like my experience with this thing" and "this thing is bad." I'm not sure how else to explain it if you cannot see the difference. One is clearly framing it as a personal opinion about something subjectively while the other is, if not explicitly, than implicitly making what is very close to an objective statement.

    You can find ARR's story to be bad, or cheesy, or 'too anime,' or whatever and stop playing the game. Go for it, you do you. I hope you find a game or something that you like better. Not liking a lot of ARR is a pretty common reaction. But if you then begin going, "FF14's story is bad!" when people are talking about stuff you aren't even aware of, you're essentially arguing from a place of overall authority on a subject when you've experienced a fraction of it.
    Last edited by Drindorai; 2021-08-30 at 12:42 PM.

  9. #749
    Quote Originally Posted by srambo View Post
    no, that is how the story in ff14 is delivered. a good word to describe it would be TEDIOUS.

    and i got to level 64 and there i was sure the story is just a steamy pile of turds (in my modest opinion ofc lul)
    Lol what, is this an actual statement, it's lazy at best, completely contradictory is prolly what i can best describe it. First you say you played an hour and now you say you went up to level 64(quite literally impossible, even if you boost it takes you to 70). You mention "fetch quests" as an excuse and then say they are "tedious" you have actually said a single thing about the story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by srambo View Post
    i already wrote my review, you didnt...i gave my reasons...you didnt

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    these are my opinions why i disliked the story....please quote or write yours
    You arent talking about the story here, you are talking about how MMOs quests work, quite literally not a single thing you have post is related to story at all to the point where i could copy and paste it and apply it to anything.

  10. #750
    Quote Originally Posted by Drindorai View Post
    And as I, and others, have been saying all along, saying, "I didn't like what of the story I saw" is perfectly acceptable. I know people who are like that and quit before finishing ARR. But to then generalize it into, "The story of FF14 is bad" is where people push back against it, especially if you only saw about 20% of it.

    There is a notable difference between, "I didn't like my experience with this thing" and "this thing is bad." I'm not sure how else to explain it if you cannot see the difference. One is clearly framing it as a personal opinion about something subjectively while the other is, if not explicitly, than implicitly making what is very close to an objective statement.

    You can find ARR's story to be bad, or cheesy, or 'too anime,' or whatever and stop playing the game. Go for it, you do you. I hope you find a game or something that you like better. Not liking a lot of ARR is a pretty common reaction. But if you then begin going, "FF14's story is bad!" when people are talking about stuff you aren't even aware of, you're essentially arguing from a place of overall authority on a subject when you've experienced a fraction of it.
    Maybe it's me that's looking at it from the wrong angle, but here's my opinion.

    For any given player, 'the story', as far as it's being discussed here, is equal to however much of the story that they actually got through before they stopped playing. So when someone says "...FFXIV's story is bad!", the "What I saw of..." that prefixes that is usually implied, from their perspective. I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks that they're any sort of authority on parts of the game that they haven't played, or parts of the story they haven't experienced. But at the same time, I think that those same people can probably be forgiven for thinking that what they missed was going to be just as unfun as what they managed to get through, when they say the game's bad. At the very least, I don't think those people are really worthy of the kind of scorn that they're getting. At least, not most of the time. There are shitty takes floating around about the game that don't really deserve the benefit of the doubt.

    What I'm getting at is that on a surface level, I don't see a significant difference between "I didn't like what of the story I saw." and "The story of FF14 is bad." The latter statement is nested within the former, from my perspective. And so the ideal response to the latter, for me, is almost never "Well, did you play the whole entire game? No?! Fuck you!" or similar sentiments.

    I dunno, that's just the lens I view these sort of discussions from.
    Last edited by CalamityHeart; 2021-08-30 at 01:54 PM.

  11. #751
    It should be expected everyone isn't going to like everything depending on the writer and subject matter. I feel this is more akin to thinking all of WoW is great because Wrath was or all of WoW is awful because WoD was. Neither are true, but it's acceptable that players would find one section more or less enjoyable than another. Just because FFXIV has a continuous storyline doesn't mean it's not applicable. Even in book or television series this is true with certain ones being praised or criticized more than others, so I don't find those comparisons apt especially as there were several series I did not like the introductions to that I grew to love later.

    My main complaint about ARR was the superfluous dialog. There's even a line in an animated parody where one of the characters says, "You just summed up 30 quests in one sentence." Yep, that's ARR. I found the majority of the characters unlikable. Some of them vastly improved and are now among my favorites. I was not interested in the bulk of the subject matter, most of which changes or at least evolves to become interesting in subsequent expansions.

    I did not like how my character was treated as a tool. Left to my own devices, I was given no reason to join the Scions. It was as if my character decided she had nothing better to do than be at their beck and call, which Alphinaud at least later admits to using us. This also changes substantially as you start to become viewed as a friend or family to those you interact with at length.

    Once I got to HW, things improved dramatically. The problem is ARR is so long, it's a massive time sink to convince players to get through and there's no guarantee to be a payoff at the end if they turn out to not like HW. While the gameplay itself doesn't change, the characters and story certainly do. I would recommend not quitting ARR if you're liking everything else but those two things because they do get better (along with combat). I find saying that the whole game is like ARR factually incorrect as I would 100% buy a story skip if I had to do ARR again, but I would NG+ HW.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  12. #752
    Quote Originally Posted by srambo View Post
    im waiting for you to write why you think the story is good vaguely like i wrote to you vaguely why i think the story is bad, and then we can geet deeper into a discussion,....but lets face it, you dont want any discussions....we touched your sensitive spot and now you gonna just repeat "tell me what you were doing in the story at level 64" over and over again and thats probably as far as you can intellectually go. it was a pleasure talking with you, as im sure it will be to the next person lucky enough to hear your opinion on something, altho we didnt hear any reasons ... like....at all.
    You will never get an answer for that. I asked it many, many, many years while playing the game, seeing a story with potential getting worse, ridiculous until it eventually became unbearable stupid.

    The reasons for this are endless.

    The protagonists are shallow, bland, one sided and only work thanks to their plot armor. They got no character developement and even worse the whole group got neither internal nor external struggles. Thanks to the obviously ingame knowledge plot armor, which bends the whole world around them all the time, they can just do what they want, ignore everything, be absolute psychopathic in their deeds and still win. What people praise the most, the story of Shadowbringer, is just terrible in all the big parts, because the antagonists are just reduced to idiotic, incompetent balloons you poke to solve everything. At no point of the story there is an actual plan - even the one of the catboy makes no sense at all - and by that of course also no developement toward it. You run in and thanks to being plot armor invincible you just win.

    The antagonists are most of the time hundred times more powerful in different way, can easily crush you all the time in endless ways and then just do nothing, because, well, that would end the story. And that's the ONLY reason. The antagonists that makes the most sense actually is sadly someone like Zenos, because he at least simply does not care so him never doing anything, well, makes sense. The other guys got an agenda and there is no reason at all, why they shouldn't end you or at least do something to wreck your endless murder spree. But then the story wouldn't continue. The worst kind of writing, when things just happen because the writers enforce them.

    Next is the overall lore. It's close to non existent with so many plot holes and inconsistencies. It of course all hangs together with the points mentioned before. The big players like Ascians and Garlemald, while around since the train wreck of 1.x, got close to no lore, they just make up stuff as they please what does still hardly fit together and if you fill all the space they leave on purpose (as they said themselves, so they can retcon stuff better), then the story simply still just don't make sense, because in that case Garlemald simply can't be the big bad at all. A big bad empire with that absurd amount of power would just obliterate you and not just stand there all the time watching you as you slaughter it. That's as absurd as thinking the USA would just watch when the IS would start to fall into their home country.

    Protagonists part II, the WoL itself: absolutely no working. The center of all attention, but can't speak, can't think, got no own motivation, got no interest, not even in their own history. Big revelation in ShB about an epic background story of gigantic proportion? There is not even a single thought about it. No one cares.

    The other big guys? Hydaelyn and Zodiark? Again, no one cares. You are told how bad Zodiark is and everyone just believes it with no proof at all and that's supposed to be good? That's how stuff like holocaust and alike happens, people just following what other people make up and start genocides over it.

    Later you get some infos - which don't fit at all with the told narrative and would HAVE TO lead to an almost 180° turn. But what happens? Nothing. It's just ignored. Again.

    Things like 'time/dimensions travel is very bad' is just thrown out of the window when the protagonists need it, plot armor again. Interesting characters will always die first, because anything that would make the story interesting would be harder to write than the usual: WoL and Scions just start their assault and slaughter all problems - plus all the pointless fillers put in the place where the actual inner and outer struggle should have been.

    Beside this you just get some other Square game stories badly copy/pasted in, not fitting at all, but yeah, who cares.

    Sure, why not, it's an MMORPG, it does not need a good story and interesting characters. And if people would be honest about it, it wouldn't even be a point. Instead they run around and spit on actual good story writing in putting it below that gigantic mess.

    FF14 got some moments and characters here and there, which COULD have become good. But those are all wasted.

    Elidibus? Wasted, Nothing of what he did ever made any sense. Varis? Completely wasted. His best friend? Wasted and forgotten. Zenos? Well, story not finished yet, but it's hard to believe they will make much out of this guy after having done nothing with him in all these years. I know less about the (way more massive) WoW lore and story, but Zenos is like Sylvanas, just without any motivation and goal. Hades? Utterly wasted. Even all he stood for lore and story wise was again just completely ignored. Other Ascians? Complete jokes, what makes no sense at all again when you look back from the actual position. Garlemald? Another giant joke that only makes sense if they are a very benevolent empire, but in that case we would be the bad guys and the plot armor does not allow this. So Garlemald is just left being stupid.

    The worst part is anyway Hydaelyn itself. Shady from the start, what you find out later is absolute terrible. And this leads... nowhere. It's again just ignored. And even worse: the player seem to be fine with it. And that's sick. There is nothing to defend this.

    But you can't talk about this. The FF14 community is so toxic, that near to no one dares to speak about all this (and there are way more problems). You will just receive aggressive hate over it. Over some bad fiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    This also changes substantially as you start to become viewed as a friend or family to those you interact with at length.
    When shall this change? You are getting abused all the time till the end and I don't think this will ever change, since the game sells being abused as a tool of mass murder against supposed 'bad guys' is something good.

    They lie all the time to you, they abuse you, they don't care what you - or others - think and the only way this is good is from their point of view.

    One of the first thing catboy in ShB tells you is, to not tell the people of the first the truth. God beware to tell people the truth so they could decide on their own for example if they just want to be reborn or maybe find a way to travel in/to a not ruined world.

    Or every single time they play with the destruction of the world, because, hey, we all know the WoL got plot armor so it will work, right? Let's just fool around with it. Why not summon primals? Why not summon two primals at once? Why not just become a primal for the lols? Oh, this almost killed everyone? Yeah, but thank to plot armor it worked out, so let's just forget about that completely and plan the next completely psychopathic murder spree risking everything and all, burning down whole continents and then blame others and use this as reason for even more murder, because we are the good guys so it's not insane mass murder, it's heroic.

    Funny how in HW the story went for a very short time in a direction about that just abusing your power to slaughter everything in your path will likely not lead to peace and freedom, but - who would have guessed - into total destruction. But this is of course just ignored and forgotten again, too hard to write I suppose. We just use the usual might makes right to solve everything.

    The game gave me never an actual reason to be on the side of the Scions or Eorza in all these years. Why? Eorza is corrupt, incompetent, ignorant and the leaders don't care at all about their people and even less the rest of the quite doomed world. Same for Doma. The Scions? Minfilia was the one caring for the whole Echo thing as solution to primals and 'stuff'. The other Scions were just foreign soldiers from an extremely arrogant and quit racist country who for some reason wanted to wager war in Eorza. And that's what the Scions solely became after Minfilia, they are just soldiers who move around and cause havoc and the only reason this does not lead to terrible blood shed and mass death is that it is fictional - and the 'bad guys' being far more peaceful than us. What was Stormblood more than us slaughtering through the rows of other nations with close to no resistence? Mainly slaughtering inhabitants of these nations by the way.

    Garlemald got a high tech army with hyper sonic flying fortresses, drones, rockets and so on. They could just obliterate those few small towns whenever they like with no problem at all. Never happens. Interesting, no? Instead Thancred comes around the corner, telling us, we should put a whole continent on fire, because that's what good guys do, playing with the lives of millions we don't know at all.

    Or the whole Doma part. A 100% war crime from start to end. The reason the Scion soldiers went there? Just to cause a distraction. The plan was, to cause some havoc so the evil, evil empire would use their forces to crush Doma and by that get some pressure from Ala Migho. I don't think many people even think about what a monstrous plan that was. The only reason it did not come to the worst? Not us. You have to thank the empire for that again. They simply did nothing and the most death was caused by us again, especially Hien and his plan with the flooding of the castle town, you know, where all the civilians live you need to run a castle. Or this abuse of foreign natives and their rites, typical for fascistic nations, proxy wars. You let other people fight for you, who cares what this means for them, right? If Garlemald would be an evil empire, all these guys would be toast afterwards, they would just throw some bombs on those small villages and burn them to the ground.
    Last edited by Miriamel105; 2021-08-30 at 04:10 PM.

  13. #753
    Quote Originally Posted by Miriamel105 View Post
    What people praise the most, the story of Shadowbringer, is just terrible in all the big parts, because the antagonists are just reduced to idiotic, incompetent balloons you poke to solve everything. At no point of the story there is an actual plan - even the one of the catboy makes no sense at all - and by that of course also no developement toward it. You run in and thanks to being plot armor invincible you just win.
    The antagonists in ShB don't get enough credit. Both Emet and Elidibus would have won their battles with no contest except for external events they couldn't have foreseen. The WoL was seconds from becoming a sin eater and would have were it not for the Ardbert merger. The CE had to summon in additional WoLs to help you fight him because it wasn't a battle you could win on your own. Even after all that plus the Scions trying to help in the background, you still almost lose except that you're able to make a weapon of pure light from all the aether you accumulated from the Lightwardens to finish the job. Emet was no joke and it was a fight we had no business winning, we basically got exceptionally lucky. Likewise, Elidibus was a game over except for the Azem crystal and Emet's plan to release him from his duty. The only villain I feel matches your description was Vauthry. Also, Emet was clear from the beginning he was trying a different tactic because Lahabrea's hadn't worked.

    The problem with the CE's plan was having no backup if something went wrong. The WoL was supposed to absorb all the Lightwardens then the CE was going to take all the light aether and die. They didn't anticipate Emet shooting him in the back before that could happen.


    Protagonists part II, the WoL itself: absolutely no working. The center of all attention, but can't speak, can't think, got no own motivation, got no interest, not even in their own history. Big revelation in ShB about an epic background story of gigantic proportion? There is not even a single thought about it. No one cares.

    The other big guys? Hydaelyn and Zodiark? Again, no one cares. You are told how bad Zodiark is and everyone just believes it with no proof at all and that's supposed to be good?
    I don't care about Garlemald and the Ascians got their lore dump in ShB. As much as I would like to have more agency, that's not what the developers have in mind. The WoL is the hero, that's it. You can create your avatar, but you're still role playing as a hero.

    I was disappointed there wasn't more attention on the 'revelation' in ShB, but I'm hoping that's because it's been kicked back to EW. I get the impression the WoL doesn't tell the Scions everything. Were it not for a comment from Urianger, I would've assumed we didn't say anything about the memory crystal and we still might not have told them the whole story.

    They do start questioning the Hydaelyn & Zodiark narrative towards the end though (finally). Except for the Ascians, I've never seen anyone say anything disparaging of Hydaelyn. This is like someone telling you that your saint of a mother might not be wholly good or have the best intentions, that's going to take some time to process when that's all you and the generations before you have known. I expect this is going to be thoroughly addressed in EW. Frankly, had Emet not told them she's a primal they likely wouldn't have ever investigated it.

    When shall this change? You are getting abused all the time till the end and I don't think this will ever change, since the game sells being abused as a tool of mass murder against supposed 'bad guys' is something good.

    They lie all the time to you, they abuse you, they don't care what you - or others - think and the only way this is good is from their point of view.
    This is subjective because I don't feel that way at all. I accept that the Scions have some deep seated beliefs that they've never had to question until recently. As much as I, the player, may feel differently unlike the WoL I am omnipresent. I just have to accept that the WoL I'm roleplaying is probably in the same boat.

    The thing in ShB is only 3 people knew what was happening with the WoL absorbing the Lightwardens, everyone else thought you'd be fine and it was no big deal. Y'shtola starts getting angry at Urianger for not doing anything about it, but at the time both he and the CE think they have a failsafe plan. Once everything goes awry, everyone is upset about it. Remember that your entire time on the First is to save not just the Source but YOUR life.

    The rest of it can be boiled down to self preservation and everyone believing they have more of a right to life than others do. All sides are guilty of this. The Scions at least admit that put in the same position they might do the same. ShB in particular I thought handled morally grey fairly well or at least as well as could be expected.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  14. #754
    The Insane Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miriamel105 View Post
    -snip-
    I wouldn't say that the FFXIV story is the worst ever. It's better than most game plots. That said, yes a lot of the plotholes and the hypocrisy is infuriating. Zenos killed thousands of people and has a ton of people who want to kill him to avenge their friends and loved ones. The WoL too has killed hundreds of Garlean soldiers (both purebloods and conscripts) and beastmen, and yet nobody wants to kill him to get revenge. Hien floods Doma Castle, killing hundreds of innocents, including his own countrymen, such as masons, painters, chefs, administrative clerks, etc, and yet literally nobody brings it up after. Hades is condemned by the narrative for trying to destroy the present world to save the old, when time travel man did the exact same thing (tried to wipe out the future to bring back his preferred old world), and the story praises him for it. And so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    The antagonists in ShB don't get enough credit. Both Emet and Elidibus would have won their battles with no contest except for external events they couldn't have foreseen. The WoL was seconds from becoming a sin eater and would have were it not for the Ardbert merger. The CE had to summon in additional WoLs to help you fight him because it wasn't a battle you could win on your own. Even after all that plus the Scions trying to help in the background, you still almost lose except that you're able to make a weapon of pure light from all the aether you accumulated from the Lightwardens to finish the job. Emet was no joke and it was a fight we had no business winning, we basically got exceptionally lucky. Likewise, Elidibus was a game over except for the Azem crystal and Emet's plan to release him from his duty. The only villain I feel matches your description was Vauthry. Also, Emet was clear from the beginning he was trying a different tactic because Lahabrea's hadn't worked.
    The 5.3 reveal makes Emet looks really stupid in comparison. If the Exarch could have used the Crystal Tower to nuke an Ascian at any time, then why did Emet repeatedly walk within close vicinity of the tower multiple times?

  15. #755
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    The 5.3 reveal makes Emet looks really stupid in comparison. If the Exarch could have used the Crystal Tower to nuke an Ascian at any time, then why did Emet repeatedly walk within close vicinity of the tower multiple times?
    Considering it physically killed the CE to draw enough power to contain Elidibus even after the WoL's beatdown I would guess because it's not that easy. Also, Emet had knowledge of what the tower could and couldn't do, so much like everything else I assume he had a contingency plan. Given the difficulty the CE had with Elidibus, I don't think he could have done the same with Emet, he was too powerful.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  16. #756
    I am Murloc! Geisl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    After ARR all the voice actors change because they moved the voice studio to England from USA. And they are a lot better aswell.
    Good to know thank you, seems like the game keeps improving with each expac, looking forward to whenever I get there starting working on my gladiator job and the crafting/gathering jobs for now!

  17. #757
    Over 9000! Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by srambo View Post
    im waiting for you to write why you think the story is good vaguely like i wrote to you vaguely why i think the story is bad, and then we can geet deeper into a discussion,....but lets face it, you dont want any discussions....we touched your sensitive spot and now you gonna just repeat "tell me what you were doing in the story at level 64" over and over again and thats probably as far as you can intellectually go. it was a pleasure talking with you, as im sure it will be to the next person lucky enough to hear your opinion on something, altho we didnt hear any reasons ... like....at all.
    I'll bite. I'm going to try and avoid specific instances for spoiler reasons. For the most part I think the characters in the story are mostly complex characters with clear flaws. Each of the Scions have made major mistakes or haven't always been complete paragons of virtue. They've never dipped into evil territory but some of them have done things that have had major consequences and they've had to wrestle with those consequences.

    I also like the way that they handle their antagonists. A lesser game would treat the beast tribes as monstrous creatures that just want destruction, but in many ways you can see how the beast tribes are justified in their actions. A good example of this is the storyline of the Kobolds. Unfortunately the power of the primals is such that they have to be put down or they'll destroy the world so we have to step in, but it doesn't necessarily treat the beast tribes as evil creatures which I appreciate. Shadowbringers delves deeper into the Ascians motivations for what they're doing and the tragedy that befell them. Ultimately once again, we have to fight for our survival but you can at least understand why they're doing what they're doing.

    Basically, the heroes of the story (other than the Warrior of Light) aren't treated as perfect beings and a lot of the antagonists aren't treated as monsters. Additionally, I think the game does a great job of making things relevant. Even more minor characters can be made relevant later on. I appreciate this as not a lot of games make those call backs and I think an MMO especially is a cool place to do that.

    Additionally, I think it's the framing of the story. Moreso than other MMOs you are a very central figure in this world. In most MMOs you're just an adventurer that's well respected but not one of the main heroes. As a result I feel like this story is my story and every quest I do, even if it's minor contributes towards my character's legacy and impact on the world. Not everyone may see it this way, but I certainly do and I haven't really felt this way in other MMOs other than maybe SWTOR in some ways.

    I also think it manages to evoke laughter, awe, sadness, and anger in a way that few games and certainly few MMOs do. It can definitely be slow paced which I understand why that may turn some people off and it definitely isn't as interactive as I'd like, although it does a better job of that in Shadowbringers, but if you can get past those things and generally like the format that JRPGs use to tell stories, then I think you'd appreciate the game a lot.

  18. #758
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by srambo View Post
    i already wrote my review, you didnt...i gave my reasons...you didnt
    "its bloated with so much irrelevant crap and gibberish/banter just used as a timesink to prolong content that even the ok parts feel like you just wasted your time watching it all."
    There's a little of this in ARR, where some of the dialog doesn't really mean or do anything, but late and post ARR, every bit of conversation is relevant to what's going on in the world, whether it be character development, exposition, story progression, or plot devices. I know there are people in MMOs who just want to get to the fighting, and find FF's story boring, but that's because THEY find the story boring, not because the story is bad.

    "i found it cheezy, with cheezy characters with cheezy jokes i didnt feel or care one bit about any of them... quests sending you around like an errand boy teleporting around the world so each person can tell you one sentence what happens next usually something totally irrelevant as well."
    Really now? The situations and characters are always quite serious. Later in your review, you describe the story as "kiddy-cartoonish anime mmo story" which I can tell you it certainly isn't. The FF story gets EXTREMELY dark. Without going into spoilers, not only do people you know frequently die but your friends die, people who you know get turned into monsters and abominations. It deals in war and genocide. Loss of loved ones. Complex enemies who are the protagonists of their own stories. That's not kiddy-cartoonish. That's deeper and more complex than WoW's "story". Not that I want to compare them, but it's pretty funny when people were leaving Everquest and jumping to WoW, the EQ stans main point was that WoW looked like a carebear cartoon, and it does. The WoW story quality also feels like one giant original fanfic written by Metzen and eventually his buddies.

    If you got to level 64 IN THE STORY and not just as your personal level, and said everything was cartoonish, I'm going to call you out as a liar. Maybe if the highest level you got to was 40 I might buy it, but not 64.

    And when people say the characters are shallow, or there's zero character development, again, they're either lying or they just didn't pay enough attention. I get the feeling people have spent 15 years in WoW and have been trained to just not care about story of the world. Yes, there's problems with the FF story, but "The characters are shallow, there's zero character development, it's cartoony-anime for kids" kind of criticism makes it so obvious that people weren't paying attention or they're just lying. All of those criticisms are just super duper ultra generic stuff someone can say about a story to appear as if they've read it, and if they're saying it to someone who doesn't have a clue either, they might even believe it.
    Plenty of people have been holding their breath waiting for me to fail. I think they all suffocated years ago.
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  19. #759
    FFXIV isn't perfect. But what draws me in a lot is the story and world. After having felt like WoW was being run by the rule of cool too much and becoming increasingly disenfranchised with its lore and story over the past several expansions, I latched onto FFXIV and grew more immersed.

    It also has some stuff I like for RP. Player housing, the ability to shift your standing/sitting posture etc. Though the races are less diverse, it feels like you get generally better customization within those races. No artifact power or similar systems you have to grind up throughout a whole expansion. Fantastic music. Dyable gear. I'm a roleplayer and finding the lore/story/setting of FFXIV more appealing makes it easier to get into RP and care about that RP. Where as my disenfranchisement with WoW's lore has left me unable to get into RP in WoW anymore.

    FFXIV has its flaws, but that's a lot of what really draws me in. If I cared about the ilvl loot treadmill and chasing better and better gear I'd probably prefer WoW still, but I burne dmyself out on caring about that a long time ago, and now how determined I am to get a set of gear in FFXIV is based more on whether I want it as a glamour option than how good the stats are.

    It's not a perfect game. There are things WOW and other games do better than it. But for my personal experience, I find it much more engaging.

  20. #760
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    Antagonists
    Emet had no reason to fight the WoL at all. It would only have made sense if his actual plan would have been to force the WoL to 'eat' Ardbert to avoid that fate. Emet Selch is sold as a master genious, someone who is able to even trick the smartest people into doing what he wants them to do. Instead he just dies for nothing and throws away everything. Hydaelyn is a Super Hitler machine, that has slaughter all life and reduced it to a mere shade of itself on top of obliterarting the planet, putting it into a decaying state. Something neither Scions nor anyone else (but the 'bad guys') care about. If you cut a planet into pieces, that's normally just the end of it. In a high fantasy setting you could do something insane like this with some kind of omipotent god who is able to alter reality itself - so if Zodiark would have done this (though maybe it is the reason the planet is still alive, since Zodiark IS the planet - but not even that is the case. Hydaelyn is an insane machine created by a bunch of likely complete crazy people in their hideout. And how terrible instable the result is, well, the 13th shows that very clear, just as the first. Following the story, the Ascians never planed to destroy the 13th at all. They likely just tried ot fix their loved ones by putting together the slaughtered souls, but instead of a normal 'human' that just created insatible monsters which devoured the chaotic shard, making it void of all aether/lifeforce.

    And the first? I mean, just look at the little Ardbert and Co had done there. They were just not complete as****es and that was enough to push it at the border of a flood, what they then triggered by killing the Ascians, killing 95% of all life in the first. Something we by the way don't seem to care about, even though we got time travel retcon on our side - if the Mary Cat Sue can use time travel to travel back to an already united shard, how hard can it be to travel back to the time before Ardbert killed 95% of the planet? Does anyone ever care about this? Or ask how Cat Sue is any better than the Ascians, when sacrificing the source of his timeline (we suddenly got timelines, also interesting) for the mere planet to take a glimpse of light away from the first. I mean, really, if Emet Selch wouldn't have shot this guy, this plan would have gone terrible wrong. He's dead, the first is still full of light, Crystal Tower, WoL, Scions (though those may likely just have died?) thrown back to the source, everyone living around CT likely dead from this or just slaughted by Sin Eaters with all protection gone. Great plan, man, great plan...

    And Elidibus? Sorry, that was soooooo dumb what he did. And saved by Emet Selch? Why? What has the WoL even done to prove anthing? The whole point of Emet Selch was, that the slaughered life fragments are egomanical, brutal, know nothing but violence and destruction without any care for others - something we just keep proving. What have we proven by beating him up? That we are better human beings? No, that we are better at killing stuff. He suddenly comes up with 'Remember us, remember we once live'. He's saying that to people who a) know NOTHING about them and even worse b) didn't care to change that at all. The WoL does not even care about their own past. Neither the WoL nor the Scions even questioned Hydaelyn for a single second, after learning, that it's just some made up primal from a few ancients who just wanted to murder everyone else to not bring those back who gave their lives to save everyone - including them. Since start of the game, there is not a single reason given, that Zodiark is acually evil nor was shown that it has done anything evil. We get the info: Zodiark is the only reason that planet and life and by that also the shards are even able to exist. Any thought about this? Nope. Not a single one. How is this good story telling?

    Elidibus plans are terrible and make no sense. None of them. And his last one - for what? Ascians can just teleport people - including the WoL - against their will. Just por the WoL into a mountain or lava or a sealed box or whatever. Just watch the WoL from their unseen place and one shot them in a good moment. Or just start with the Scions, just kill those. Elidibus even talks about this. Well, why isn't he doing it? He can without any problem. He can just port right in and stab them. Done.

    But that would ruin the story? No. To create such an antagonist who then is just not doing anything, so the good guys can win, THIS already ruined the story.

    So Elidibus would win, but then Emet Selch ghost appears and saves us. Fine, just port us again? Or leave and kill us the next day. If I would see Emet Selch, my 10.000 year old friend I thougt dead, I would port out and get new infos.

    Good story telling means, that the characters act as if they are real. Neither Emet Selch nor Elidibus nor most other antagonists act like real people. They act like cardboard monsters, simply there to get beaten.


    I don't care about Garlemald
    That doesn't get rid of the problem, that they are size-wise the biggest player.

    the Ascians got their lore dump in ShB
    By far not enough and everything that HAD TO come out of this is just ignored, what is worse than everything just staying in the dark. If you tell the protagonist all this (including such a strong link to it) and the protagonsits just moves on without even showing any reaction to this, that's just bad.

    that's not what the developers have in mind. The WoL is the hero, that's it. You can create your avatar, but you're still role playing as a hero.
    Indeed and that's the reason it's not good story telling. It's just some background noise for the 'slaughter the next monster' gameplay. You are the hero, you slaughter monsters. I've seen many RPG maker games from single person who care more about world building, lore and character developement. And since FF14 treats the story 100% like a single player RPG, that wouldn't be a problem at all.

    They do start questioning the Hydaelyn & Zodiark narrative towards the end though (finally)

    The last thing I have seen is them simply asking the WoL if Hydaelyn had talked to the WoL again. That's it.

    This is like someone telling you that your saint of a mother might not be wholly good or have the best intentions

    One of the first thing this thing tells you itself is, that it is the reason that the planet is ripped apart. It just adds to it, that it's of course benevolent and just had to do it, because other guy is evil. Hydaelyn never gives you any reason to trust it. It protects you? Because you are its weapon. If the weapon gets destroyed it can't let it slaughter stuff anymore. People like the song, but what does the song actually has to do with what is happening during it? Bahamut isn't get beaten by Hydaelyn.

    The big protection is, when you fight Ultima Weapon. Question would be why you fight Gaius at all. What would Gaius have done? Uniting Eorza, making it one country instead of corrupt city states only not at war with each other for selfish reasons? Getting rid of the primal threat and the war/slaughtering of the beast tribes? How evil and bad. Bringing technology, education order and social safity to people? That bastard. Who is the actual main reason for the pain even in Ala Migho and Doma? Is it Garlemald with a 20% tax rate? Or are it the underground terrorist guys who kept the country in a chaotic state over almost two decades? What's actually good about monarchy? Why do we want to bring Hien back in power? From all the infos we go, all 'nations' we liberate had been terrible places long before Garlemald. And when you get infos from those rebells, they got a lot of very good education. Just imagine for a second, the terrorist in Ala Migho and Doma would have helped their people instead of fighting and endangering them.


    This is subjective because I don't feel that way at all.
    I get, why. Becacuse the games sells them as friendly. I look at what they actually do. And there is nothing good about it. And the game gives zero reasons to change this beside simply focing you. It just forces you to stay with them, there is no other way. They want you to just storm into another country you got no clue about to start a giant slaughter and somehow win against an army that could just easily obliterate you with hyper sonic drones? Well, yeah, you will just do it. When I tell Lyse "This is not MY war", the absurd answer to it is: I'm sorry I lied to you about my name. - Girl, I don't care if you call yourself the nutsack of santa goblin, I care about people DYING for your insane nationalism.

    The whole plan on the first is stupid from start to end and as explained wouldn't have worked at all. I would never have gone along with it at all for obvious reasons. And 'my' WoL life does not matter. It's the whole part of being a soldier that you put YOUR life in danger for others. Instead all the time you act like everything is just a dumb game and so many 'pseudo plans' of the Scions would normally have led to mass death and only work inside fiction that just let things happen.

    The WoL and Scions dying? Yeah, absolute just. Warmongers should die. Why did it happen? Because the Eorzan fascist could not stop pushing further, causing more and more bloodshed over nothing but their power. They got no plan going on like Garlemald, who wants to stop all the wars between all those mini nations - what has for example obliterated them by being easy victims to magical fascists for such a long time - by uniting them and of course get rid of that desastrous threat of primals, every single one potentially able to end the planet with their power to brainwash people and get endlessly stronger by consuming more and more aether. Garlemald is by far the most natural ally of the WoL. Eorza just abuses you as their murder hobo and to what has this led? Likely millions of dead people now, since all you did just brought chaos over the world and now crazy 'I just want to die and take the world with me' Super Asahi. Great job. What is the reason Varis wanted to use chemical warfare? Simply to protect his soldiers from the even worse magic we use all the time. The game doesn't show it, but what do people think it feels like dying towards magic, that scorches your flesh, rips you open, creates magical diseases consuming you from the inside and the on? In comparison to this Garlemalds weapon is one of the nicest ways to die. You just stop living. Sure, the light thing is a problem. Next time just send them a letter about this (just like we could have warned them regarding the attack of Captain Sloppy). Or just just wagering war. Varis hold back the whole time. Ala Migho. Doma. They just have done nothing and let it happen. Both Ascians want to push him. Nope. Not following. Talking to the Eorzans about the truth. Nope. Eorzans want war. Yeah, we really followed the plans of the Ascians well the whole time. If it would be badly writtn fiction, these guys would have no prob at all to reach whatever they want. We never even try to hunt them down. The Ascians could simply ignore us. We are not doing anything.

    Oh, by the way: no, the Ascians are the ones who want to save the source. The source is the core planet, it's the one planet they want to restore piece by piece. The reason it's much more stable than the shards is them and their work. Our goal seems to be, that everyone will die. Since the chance that Hydaelyn's slaughter of the planet won't lead to all shards dying sooner or later is more than just slim. We never care to even think about this most likely problem.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    FFXIV isn't perfect. But what draws me in a lot is the story and world. After having felt like WoW was being run by the rule of cool too much and becoming increasingly disenfranchised with its lore and story over the past several expansions, I latched onto FFXIV and grew more immersed.

    It also has some stuff I like for RP. Player housing, the ability to shift your standing/sitting posture etc. Though the races are less diverse, it feels like you get generally better customization within those races. No artifact power or similar systems you have to grind up throughout a whole expansion. Fantastic music. Dyable gear. I'm a roleplayer and finding the lore/story/setting of FFXIV more appealing makes it easier to get into RP and care about that RP. Where as my disenfranchisement with WoW's lore has left me unable to get into RP in WoW anymore.

    FFXIV has its flaws, but that's a lot of what really draws me in. If I cared about the ilvl loot treadmill and chasing better and better gear I'd probably prefer WoW still, but I burne dmyself out on caring about that a long time ago, and now how determined I am to get a set of gear in FFXIV is based more on whether I want it as a glamour option than how good the stats are.

    It's not a perfect game. There are things WOW and other games do better than it. But for my personal experience, I find it much more engaging.
    I'm not so deep in the lore and story of WoW, since it's so vast. But it's overall still fascinating how coherent it is over all these years, epecially regarding the size of it, even though it's of course just impossible to have everything planed like this when for example the first RTS came out. It's not compareable at all and when I read criticism regarding the WoW story, it sounds more like childish crying around for the sake for crying around. It's almost the same as FF14. While in FF14 no one can explain me what's so good about it, in WoW no one can explain me what's supposed to be so bad about it.

    Take Sylvanas beating Bolvar for example. What's bad about it? Bolvar is a Lich King who simply holds the crown to keep it in check, trying his best to not succumb to it, fighting it. Sylavanas meanwhile got the support of an actul god on her side, even more the power of the god who had creatd the Helmet of Domination. And Bolvar doesn't even have a mourneblade. So what's to cry about? Yeah, sure, it was clearly not planed over a decade ago, that there is an imprisoned god in the realm of death and so on, but that just makes it more impressing, that they made it work that well. Such an old story line and fit right in, those dreadlords as agents of death and of course all absolutely fitting into this eternal struggle between the great powers.

    WoW got much bigger power levels. Something like that makes it harder to handle, but they handle it well, by balancing it out and letting the normal people dance in the middle of it.

    If you tell the WoW story in the way FF14 is, everone and the void lords grandma would only talk about the player character all the time - and everyone would lose to them without the need of support and plans and whatever.

    FF14 simply uses way more cutscenes (and way less voice acting). The cut scenes suggerate, that there is 'story', while most of them don't really tell much at all. Other mmorpgs just don't force all text down your throat as much, that's the actual difference.

    And content - the reason I stopped paying for FF14 is, that they just cut content all the time. What people enjoy now is mostly years old and they stopped doing much with it. We got less and less content, the quality of the gameplay also got less, while the cash shop blooms. And when you unsub - you lose your house. That's the reason I won't come back anymore. After my friends left over the years, when I still tried to hold them against the trend, it was one thing, but when I lost our mansion now we got since 2013(!), because you can't just unsub until for example Endwalker, no, not anymore.

    If I would play WoW, I could unsub whenever I want and would never lose anything. I still don't play it, but that's how it should work.

    And sorry, Square is a giant company. When I look at the SOLO housing, you get a giant island ther FOR FREE, you can put 3200(!) objects onto it as you please, increase their size, turn them, hover them up to 1km high and whatever and every server got 18.000 such islands! And this game does not even have a sub.

    And then Square comes to me: yeah, sorry, we can't do more, give us money!!!! Yeah, not anymore...

    If you are new to FF14 - sure, you got content of EIGHT years to play through. I played all this content in those eight years, so I only got the current content, a point you gonna reach, too. And that's when it becomes very, very bland and boring (if you are not into eRP).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I wouldn't say that the FFXIV story is the worst ever. It's better than most game plots. That said, yes a lot of the plotholes and the hypocrisy is infuriating. Zenos killed thousands of people and has a ton of people who want to kill him to avenge their friends and loved ones. The WoL too has killed hundreds of Garlean soldiers (both purebloods and conscripts) and beastmen, and yet nobody wants to kill him to get revenge. Hien floods Doma Castle, killing hundreds of innocents, including his own countrymen, such as masons, painters, chefs, administrative clerks, etc, and yet literally nobody brings it up after. Hades is condemned by the narrative for trying to destroy the present world to save the old, when time travel man did the exact same thing (tried to wipe out the future to bring back his preferred old world), and the story praises him for it. And so on.
    Yeah, this exactly. The story got the potential to be a good one, IF it would have handled this. But they didn't. Didn't dare. Were too lazy or the producer/other money guys said: nope, too much work, we want earn money not spend money. Funny enough, most of it could be fixed easily - and actually: I would have written the whole story from the PoV Garlemald. SO much more potential in every way. What's even the point of the city states? Just imagine you would go there as undercover agent of Garlemald instead. Then come back, having all the internal struggles in that giant united states. Meanwhile all the corruption in Eorza is ignored. It has to be ignored, because how do you want to solve it? You would have to do what Gaius wanted to do and get rid of the corrupt leadership.

    A whole expansion could have been about the three city states and to solve the problem there in a way that does not push them into total chaos. For example pushing the princess of Uldah to power, all against Uldah problems, warhawks in the homeland with own plans and Ascians dancing between all this. - Also something just completelys forgotten by the way, her plan to make Uldah more democratic. So much they bring up and then just throw it away - exactly what makes it look like that they GOT good writers but those are just simply not allowed to write an actual good story.

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