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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    MMOs are no worse at telling a story than a single player game. I truly have no idea how you came to this opinion.
    It's not as immersive if there are millions of Warriors of Light yet the game's story pictures it as if we are the only one that exists. That has always been a core problem for me when a player that is of many is put really high on the pedestal. Had the same issue with WoW as well.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  2. #762
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    It's not as immersive if there are millions of Warriors of Light yet the game's story pictures it as if we are the only one that exists. That has always been a core problem for me when a player that is of many is put really high on the pedestal. Had the same issue with WoW as well.
    Once again, it's no worse than a single player game. The story is you are taking the story journey as the Warrior of Light. The other players aren't part of your character's story.

  3. #763
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Once again, it's no worse than a single player game. The story is you are taking the story journey as the Warrior of Light. The other players aren't part of your character's story.
    Except when they are if the story involves dungeons and trials.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  4. #764
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Except when they are if the story involves dungeons and trials.
    In dungeons and trials, your character is the Warrior of Light and the others are people just helping you. I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp. Your immersion can easily be retained but you're choosing to let it be broken by something that isn't canon.

  5. #765
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    In dungeons and trials, your character is the Warrior of Light and the others are people just helping you. I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp. Your immersion can easily be retained but you're choosing to let it be broken by something that isn't canon.
    Some random people help me kill important bosses and characters and just disappear and are never even mentioned right after it concludes. It would be just as immersion-breaking if I did contracts with 5 other Geralt's when playing Witcher 3. Single-player games have an advantage over MMOs when it comes to storytelling and role-playing. It makes more sense for your character to be in the center and if the game allows, you can make decisions that decide certain outcomes. Not possible for most MMOs.

    This isn't to say MMOs are doomed to have a bad story or that all single-player games are guaranteed to have a good tale, but the scope between the two genres definitely helps the ladder craft a good story arc. FFXIV devs put a lot of effort into the game's story, more effort than almost any other MMOs I've played. Regardless I wouldn't rank the story quality in my top 50.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Some random people help me kill important bosses and characters and just disappear and are never even mentioned right after it concludes. It would be just as immersion-breaking if I did contracts with 5 other Geralt's when playing Witcher 3. Single-player games have an advantage over MMOs when it comes to storytelling and role-playing. It makes more sense for your character to be in the center and if the game allows, you can make decisions that decide certain outcomes. Not possible for most MMOs.

    This isn't to say MMOs are doomed to have a bad story or that all single-player games are guaranteed to have a good tale, but the scope between the two genres definitely helps the ladder craft a good story arc. FFXIV devs put a lot of effort into the game's story, more effort than almost any other MMOs I've played. Regardless I wouldn't rank the story quality in my top 50.
    Well I can't really tell you how to view a game's narrative. I'm just saying it's very easy to not let your immersion get broken by viewing it the way I described.

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Some random people help me kill important bosses and characters and just disappear and are never even mentioned right after it concludes. It would be just as immersion-breaking if I did contracts with 5 other Geralt's when playing Witcher 3. Single-player games have an advantage over MMOs when it comes to storytelling and role-playing. It makes more sense for your character to be in the center and if the game allows, you can make decisions that decide certain outcomes. Not possible for most MMOs.

    This isn't to say MMOs are doomed to have a bad story or that all single-player games are guaranteed to have a good tale, but the scope between the two genres definitely helps the ladder craft a good story arc. FFXIV devs put a lot of effort into the game's story, more effort than almost any other MMOs I've played. Regardless I wouldn't rank the story quality in my top 50.
    Actually, these "random players" are supposed to be your friends that you have tackled the last 30 huge bosses with already.
    The quests don't say "gather your friends, this is going to be difficult" and stuff like that for nothing. So it's not like they are random (ass-)pirates you found lurking around in Limsa, even if that is what you decided to do due to how MMOs and games in general work

    You might as well complain about ( or view it in a similar negative light ) how you have the freedom to do cooking/fishing even though you just accepted the quest to kill the bad guy before he ends the world if that is already immersion breaking or weird for you.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2021-08-27 at 05:38 AM.

  8. #768
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Ding...Ding....DING!!! And that is the correct answer!.

    You only played to 52 or 62, which means, you didn't experience Heavensward completely or You only started Stormblood and left even before reaching the Far East areas. That sounds like a WoW leaving the game before even being level 120 (in the old leveling system) and not experience Legion/BFA (That is actually the "endgame" content of the game).
    Yeah, can we not gatekeep opinions?

    People are fucking allowed to not like something. You guys constantly coming out of the woodwork to tell them that they're somehow "wrong" about it are being extremely ill-mannered.

    Dont feed the troll. Is clear he is defending "World of Warcraft" and he only plays that. In his brain, there is no space for other game. Is WoW or nothing.
    Oh stop with this nonsense. They never even mentioned WoW.

    Yea, really bad statement right there. MMOs are one the best ways to create a "story" and put it in good use, so players can do it together.
    Well, the issue that MMOs generally have with storytelling isn't that the platform is inherently bad for it, but the design of the games - that is, keeping players busy and gated by time - often causes pacing issues with the telling of the story. It's the need to stretch out a story over X amount of levels or hours, regardless of how much time the story actually needs to be told. Whereas other games or medium will be made to fit the story, MMOs will tend to be the other way around.

    XIV has gotten better at this over time, but even the holy, sacred, hallowed Shadowbringers is full of filler.

    There's also the issue of outcomes needing to fit certain profiles. "We" can't be hurt or killed or otherwise taken out of the game, for instance. Consequences for us and the people around us can only be so extreme. The world is persistent, but won't actually be affected or change in major ways. The setting will tend to remain static with us taking a path from Point A to Point Beat-the-bad-Guy.

    It can make it difficult to tell a variety of stories.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2021-08-27 at 05:56 AM.

  9. #769
    Quote Originally Posted by kail View Post
    Regardless I wouldn't rank the story quality in my top 50.


    So what is your top 50 better stories than xiv list?

  10. #770
    I also think that one of the best parts about FFXIV is easily its story and how it all unfolded. Even Stormblood, which is on the bottom of the list of expansion storytelling for me, kept me entertained just about all the way through.

    Opinions on a story are very subjective, though. Someone could say FFXIV has one of the worst stories in video games, and I'd vehemently disagree with them, but it's not really my place to tell them they're wrong or try to convince them otherwise. There's honest, earnest discussion about what you think are your game's good points, and then there's being an asshole. Learn the difference. Don't be an asshole.

    That said, I also feel like there's a bit of a difference between acknowledging flaws in a game's storytelling and just outright ruining that storytelling for yourself, by not suspending your disbelief when you're supposed to.

    "Why are my party members only here for one dungeon and are never a part of the story again?" feels close to the same tier as "Why do you need exactly five boar asses?" or "Why am I only being told to free six slaves from the mines, when there's at least 60 further in, and more fresh arrivals that I run past by the time I have to leave?"

    These are not invalid questions to ask. But you're... not supposed to ask them. They're cursed. They will ruin your immersion if you allow them, yes, but it's mostly your fault for allowing them. And while it's true that some game genres might ask you to suspend your disbelief in less/different ways than others, that fact in itself doesn't really necessitate that other game genres are "better" storytellers. Ultimately, it comes down mostly to the story itself.

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by CalamityHeart View Post
    "Why are my party members only here for one dungeon and are never a part of the story again?" feels close to the same tier as "Why do you need exactly five boar asses?" or "Why am I only being told to free six slaves from the mines, when there's at least 60 further in, and more fresh arrivals that I run past by the time I have to leave?"

    These are not invalid questions to ask. But you're... not supposed to ask them. They're cursed. They will ruin your immersion if you allow them, yes, but it's mostly your fault for allowing them. And while it's true that some game genres might ask you to suspend your disbelief in less/different ways than others, that fact in itself doesn't really necessitate that other game genres are "better" storytellers. Ultimately, it comes down mostly to the story itself.
    I think the problem I've had with it is that it's felt at a couple of points like it has deliberately got in its own way on that front. I'm not that far in yet, I just killed Ifrit, but that was a prime example. I was playing with a friend, then we were forced to disband our party to get ambushed by the Amaljaa, then we had to reform to take on Ifrit, only to be put immediately into a cutscene where I alone resist Ifrit's magic, then I get out of the cutscene into the fight and sure enough there are 4 of us fighting him. It felt like it would have worked better if the game had simply allowed a number of Warriors of Light to be captured canonically, but sure enough I returned to the Scions and was told that I was the special one who had overcome the mighty Ifrit. Some small acknowledgement of the other Warriors of Light would have been so simple and helped with the immersion. Even Blizzard picked up on this recently and explicitly acknowledged the existence of multiple Maw Walkers in a few places.
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  12. #772
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    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    Even Blizzard picked up on this recently and explicitly acknowledged the existence of multiple Maw Walkers in a few places.
    Hasn't WoW always acknowledged that there were multiple champions waltzing around? The player being the one and only adventurer/champion is the exception, not the norm.

    • Vanilla: you're just one of many adventurers. Adventurers took out all of the threats.
    • BC: you're just one of many adventurers. Adventurers took out all of the threats.
    • Wrath: at this point, you're starting to become one of the elite few that is being called up by Varian/Thrall/Tirion/Brann/whomever to come deal with the threat of the week. You are the champion of your faction. But you are not the only one.
    • Cata: you are one of a few legendary adventurers, and one of your faction's greatest champions.
    • MoP: same as Cata.
    • WoD: this is the only time you are are canonically the only hero. You are the only garrison commander and you're the only player character that is involved on Draenor. The only heroes on Draenor either came through the Dark Portal (and almost all of them are dead by the end of the intro scenario, with just you, Thrall, Khadgar, Maraad, and a handful of others fleeing from Grommash). You built a garrison and called in reinforcements from Azeroth, but you're the only champion running around Draenor.
    • Legion: is back to you being one of a handful of elite champions. There is canonically at least one champion of every class (as at least 12 champions/elite adventurers)
    • BFA: same as usual.
    • Shadowlands: is all over the place with the lore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Whereas in FFXIV, the idea of there being multiple player Warriors of Light was an idea that existed in ARR, and then was dropped by the time of HW, at which point you canonically do everything yourself or with the MSQ NPCs who were present (ie you canonically did Bardaam's Mettle with Hien, Gosetsu, Yugiri, and Lyse). There are no other elite player adventurers or WoLs in the story.
    Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss; 2021-08-27 at 12:43 PM.

  13. #773
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    LOL WHAT?! There are entire mogs in WoW that completely change their appearance when on female characters to look like bikinis. Also, FFXIV hit 22 million users three months before Asmongold started playing. Just stop.
    Just so you know FF14 does this too. The DRG AF1 armor, which is iconic and well loved, if put on a female has them show off their tummy. Armor made with spikes to prevent a dragon from eating you or clawing you, has a gaping sexy hole right in a vital organ area, for what possible reason?

    That said, who cares lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kittahsmash View Post
    So what is your top 50 better stories than xiv list?
    Not the person you quoted and I'm certainly not listing 50 games here, but games I've really enjoyed stories include:

    1. Xenogears
    2. FFT/FF9/FF7
    3. Valkyrie Profile (1 and 2 honestly)
    4. Bloodborne
    5. Persona series (specifically 5, 4, and 3, in that order for me)
    6. Star Ocean Till End of Time
    7. Mana Khemia series
    8. Legend of the Dragoon
    9. Legend of Legaia
    10. Most Tales of (Really enjoyed the Berseria/Zesteria stories, but Abyss is probably my favorite?)

    Those are some of my personal favorites of great storytelling, with Xenogears being at the top. Sometimes it's because of the overall story (Xenogears, FFT, Bloodborne), sometimes it's because of the setting (VP, SOTtEoT, LoD,LoL), and other times it's because the characters (Persona, Tales of, FF9/7).

    While I enjoy the story of FF14 and do consider it good, I don't think it compares with my examples above (for me personally).

  14. #774
    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardSquirtle View Post
    I think the problem I've had with it is that it's felt at a couple of points like it has deliberately got in its own way on that front. I'm not that far in yet, I just killed Ifrit, but that was a prime example. I was playing with a friend, then we were forced to disband our party to get ambushed by the Amaljaa, then we had to reform to take on Ifrit, only to be put immediately into a cutscene where I alone resist Ifrit's magic, then I get out of the cutscene into the fight and sure enough there are 4 of us fighting him. It felt like it would have worked better if the game had simply allowed a number of Warriors of Light to be captured canonically, but sure enough I returned to the Scions and was told that I was the special one who had overcome the mighty Ifrit. Some small acknowledgement of the other Warriors of Light would have been so simple and helped with the immersion. Even Blizzard picked up on this recently and explicitly acknowledged the existence of multiple Maw Walkers in a few places.
    The Bowl of Embers, as it's presented storywise, was pretty clumsy, at least compared to every other time you'll have to deal with similar set-ups. I don't want to imply at all that I think FFXIV's storytelling is utterly faultless. I also don't want to insinuate that suspending your disbelief is like the panacea of clumsy storytelling, because it's not. This is one of those things where it's more on the side of acknowledging the flaws, rather than needling at something you're not supposed to be needling at.

    There are definitely times in the story where the fact that you weren't alone going into or coming out of a dungeon or trial is acknowledged, however. Of course, being the main character/chosen one/messiah is a pedestal you will never come down from. But if it helps at all, while you're definitely 'The Hero', there are other 'heroes' around, as a nod to the other players in the world. That was a sense I remember feeling from the story while I was playing through the early game, and if you haven't felt that yet, hopefully you'll get to the point where it sort of feels that way before long.

  15. #775
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    Ding...Ding....DING!!! And that is the correct answer!.

    You only played to 52 or 62, which means, you didn't experience Heavensward completely or You only started Stormblood and left even before reaching the Far East areas. That sounds like a WoW leaving the game before even being level 120 (in the old leveling system) and not experience Legion/BFA (That is actually the "endgame" content of the game).

    As the game progress, you unlock more and more updated content. With new features and things to do.

    Now if you would have said something like, "I left in the moment i did my first Dungeon in Shadowbringers...". Now, that clearly means you have 0 interest in the game, and all that you have seen so far, lacked the appeal you are looking for.

    Now that i reach level 80. I can say, that the game is amazing. I would even dare to play another alt, just for the sake of having 2 high level characters with different races. (But that is up to me, because i have fun doing that, and also i want to experience the MSQ with another "HERO").
    Your reply is flawed, getting to 52/62 took dozens of hours, if I did not enjoy the game after dozens of hours, then it failed for me, please, I need you to understand this.

  16. #776
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    Naw dude just sink hundreds of hours into the game until you get to Shadowbringers, trust me, it will be good.

    It's like telling somebody to pick up S4 or S5 of a television series because it gets good then, and your opinion doesn't really matter until you get to that part.

    I'm sorry but anybody who has sunk dozens of hours into a game still has an opinion on the game, lol. Beating an entire story and not liking it is grounds enough to give a pretty good opinion on it. Besides classes getting a bit more complicated with each new expansion, the core gameplay loops, let alone how the game interacts with the world doesn't really change at all. It's still functionally the same system, and that hasn't changed.

    FF14 to me has a really good story, but asking people to list all of their favorite games that usurp it is really silly. Simply put, there are several FF games that SQUARE made that have better overall stories. Does that mean FF14 is bad? No. It just means there are better games out there if you're comparing them from a narrative perspective.

    ARR was mostly world building which I can appreciate, but hardly anything happened of note until the very end. Heavensward was pretty solid the entire way through, while Stormblood was bouncing between two storylines which made it really hard to engage with. No offense to those that liked it, but I felt like the majority of the experience was just teleporting to one area, listen to dialogue and then watch characters keyboard turn 90 degrees and walk off.. only to teleport and do the same thing. It is not hard to tell and a massive amount of Stormblood could be told in way less MSQ.

    I've put over 400 hours into the game, is that not enough? Trust me just put 500 or 600 hours in, then you'll like it. Do people not realize how many games people could have played with that time budget?

  17. #777
    Quote Originally Posted by Necrosaro123 View Post
    The reason for me to tell you this, is that ARR is kinda meh. The good part started at Heavensward. The patch content after ARR is also kinda boring.

    Also is important to mention, that a job like Samurai is so freaking fun to play, so visual and with many abilities to use. The problem with the base "classes" is that they are so "simple". You need to try all.
    I don't though, I invested a large chunk of my limited time into the game and did not enjoy it, many people do enjoy the game, thats fine, really, its also ok for people to not enjoy it, making someone play every bit of content of the game is not a passable method.

  18. #778
    I sincerely hope after EW that FFXIV does something about ARR. It's disappointing seeing how much that experience is turning people away from the game and I was almost one of them.

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    I loved Legend of Legaia. I have wished for years that they'd make it into a series, I always thought they were short-sighted killing off all the Seru at the end. They could've at least done some prequels where they still existed.

    Suikoden 1 & 2 would be on my list. The original Phantasy Star series (1-4) on console. The Quest for Glory series. FFX is my favorite of all the FF titles.

    My #1 game of all time is Okami though. I've purchased it on multiple platforms, bought the soundtrack and the artbook, designed and named my Draenei shaman around the main character, I love it so much.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  19. #779
    The ideas that a) you should give the game a chance beyond ARR and b) putting in dozens of hours into the game is enough to form an opinion can BOTH be true. People are free to like and dislike the things they want. They may not have a fully formed opinion yet, or they may be biased for it. It doesn't matter because someone else's opinion doesn't take away from yours. Anyways, that's my 2 gil.

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittahsmash View Post
    So what is your top 50 better stories than xiv list?
    I'd have to dig into my entire library of rpg/adventure games I've played since the GBA and N64 days. The number was quickly pulled out of my head. I first typed top 10 but quickly realized that was off, even top 30, so to stay safe I chose with 50 games or so I've played with a better story that FFXIV.

    Could be a little more or less but as I said already the story is very shounen like. The way they save some characters from death or how the chosen hero just prevails with sheer willpower and friendship is like some Naruto or Fairytale anime arc.
    The wise wolf who's pride is her wisdom isn't so sharp as drunk.

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