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  1. #821
    And so we come back to, "It's bad because it's not what I would have done," which makes the entire conversation worthless.

    Especially in context with comments like this:

    I'm not so deep in the lore and story of WoW, since it's so vast. But it's overall still fascinating how coherent it is over all these years, epecially regarding the size of it, even though it's of course just impossible to have everything planed like this when for example the first RTS came out. It's not compareable at all and when I read criticism regarding the WoW story, it sounds more like childish crying around for the sake for crying around. It's almost the same as FF14. While in FF14 no one can explain me what's so good about it, in WoW no one can explain me what's supposed to be so bad about it.
    LOL WHAT.

    Also this whole conversation about Hydaelyn keeps being framed, by dishonest actors, as if the story doesn't have a problem with her. As if she isn't responsible for the state of the universe too. And to that I just have to say have you just not been paying attention? Because it absolutely does. Literally the finale cutscene of the final zone in Shadowbringers has MULTIPLE characters telling the villain they fully understand why they feel and act the way that they do.

    Miriamel, your entire post reads like someone larping as a Garlean when people are talking about the story from an outside-the-game perspective.

    However the single sentence that made me realize you were just full of it was this one:

    And content - the reason I stopped paying for FF14 is, that they just cut content all the time.
    ESPECIALLY as you're negatively comparing FF14 to WoW in this regard. This sentence is fuuuuucking absurd on its face with regards to WoW vs FF14.

    If you are new to FF14 - sure, you got content of EIGHT years to play through. I played all this content in those eight years, so I only got the current content, a point you gonna reach, too. And that's when it becomes very, very bland and boring (if you are not into eRP).
    Been caught up to MSQ for over a month and there's plenty of stuff that I'm still doing. But thanks for dismissing it all as "ERP" I guess? The further along your post goes the more you reveal that you're just a fraudulent actor in this conversation. Frankly I'm surprised you didn't bust out the, 'HURR ITS TOO ANIME!' worthless comment in your giant wall of nonsense text.
    Last edited by Drindorai; 2021-08-30 at 10:48 PM.

  2. #822
    Quote Originally Posted by Miriamel105 View Post
    Instead he just dies for nothing and throws away everything.
    The conflict was going to happen at some point. Regardless of whether or not I agree with it, Ascians and primals are the top two targets on the Scions' hit list because they both lead to death and destruction. Also, I'll be frank, Emet presented as someone with depression to me, which is understandable. It had been 12k+ years and they were only halfway done with rejoinings. He mentions in the "Ere Our Curtain Falls" short story that he'd essentially considered suicide more than once.

    Hydaelyn is a Super Hitler machine, that has slaughter all life and reduced it to a mere shade of itself on top of obliterarting the planet, putting it into a decaying state.
    Well, that's not what happened. The sundering didn't kill, it just fractured everything 13x. The 13th shard was also mistakenly destroyed because they tilted it too far towards dark while not setting up a dark-based calamity on the Source so that it would merge.

    Something we by the way don't seem to care about, even though we got time travel retcon on our side - if the Mary Cat Sue can use time travel to travel back to an already united shard, how hard can it be to travel back to the time before Ardbert killed 95% of the planet?
    This was all explained in the Echo flashback in the CT. Cid would not have accumulated the knowledge he did without traveling with the WoL, it was that knowledge that led to the development of the CT being able to travel to the First. The CE also says that when he arrived at the First it was almost a century before he intended. I don't believe they knew what happened there or when, only that the First was what caused the 8th Umbral Calamity. He also says during this same cutscene that mankind was all but dying out at the time he left and he was sent back to hopefully prevent that fate.

    As for Norvrandt, all of the sin eaters were dead. Yes, there was an abundance of light aether left over, but as long as people stayed away from the Empty the situation was stable.


    And Elidibus? Sorry, that was soooooo dumb what he did. And saved by Emet Selch? Why? What has the WoL even done to prove anthing?
    Emet knew that without him Elidibus would be carrying on the burden alone, a burden that Emet struggled to carry, that's why he sabotaged him in the fight against the WoL so he too could be at peace and not continue to suffer for an increasingly lost cause. Elidibus couldn't even remember why he was doing what he was doing.

    Neither the WoL nor the Scions even questioned Hydaelyn for a single second, after learning, that it's just some made up primal from a few ancients who just wanted to murder everyone else to not bring those back who gave their lives to save everyone - including them. Since start of the game, there is not a single reason given, that Zodiark is acually evil nor was shown that it has done anything evil. We get the info: Zodiark is the only reason that planet and life and by that also the shards are even able to exist. Any thought about this? Nope. Not a single one. How is this good story telling?
    I assume because it's going to be addressed at length in EW. 5.5 cutscenes: Krile says after what transpired on the first she and Y'shtola began questioning the true nature of Hydaelyn's blessing and how she's not made her will known to anyone. She's planning to look into it in the archives of Sharlayan.

    One of the first thing this thing tells you itself is, that it is the reason that the planet is ripped apart. It just adds to it, that it's of course benevolent and just had to do it, because other guy is evil. Hydaelyn never gives you any reason to trust it. It protects you? Because you are its weapon.
    I agree with you and hopefully that is all addressed in EW. I have theories about that, but they're not backed up by anything in the game yet.

    Oh, by the way: no, the Ascians are the ones who want to save the source. The source is the core planet, it's the one planet they want to restore piece by piece. The reason it's much more stable than the shards is them and their work. Our goal seems to be, that everyone will die. Since the chance that Hydaelyn's slaughter of the planet won't lead to all shards dying sooner or later is more than just slim. We never care to even think about this most likely problem.
    Eh, they do, they just don't care. You're preaching to the choir here, I am #teamrejoin. That's the problem with all of humanity, they always think their lives are important and paramount. It's especially ridiculous in the universe of FFXIV where reincarnation is confirmed and, even without that, there always seem to be a dozen different ways to cheat death.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  3. #823
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    Repeating again for all involved:

    This is not an FFXIV vs. WoW thread and needs no additional game vs. game rhetoric. Let's stay on topic concerning the enjoyment of FFXIV and keep unrelated criticisms in other threads.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #824
    (not comparing to any specific mmo)
    Casual content is more meaningful and enjoyable
    Story is better
    Better character customization (even if the game NEEDS a system like wow's wardrove)
    Not having the need for alts.
    Not feeling that Square is stabbing me in the ass with a needle so i do content i dont want to do because if i dont do it i lose a MASSIVE ammount of player power and character progress.

    The only bad thing i see, well "bad" to me because now i feel i am an old lazy fuck is that the first Premade group content a casual player do (extreme primals) are probably too hard to be the first not automatic group content and i feel something else should be between normal raid and extreme primal to help new and casual players get more confortable with their characters before tackling an extreme.

  5. #825
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    The conflict was going to happen at some point. Regardless of whether or not I agree with it, Ascians and primals are the top two targets on the Scions' hit list because they both lead to death and destruction. Also, I'll be frank, Emet presented as someone with depression to me, which is understandable. It had been 12k+ years and they were only halfway done with rejoinings. He mentions in the "Ere Our Curtain Falls" short story that he'd essentially considered suicide more than once.
    Scions nor WoL never did anything in this regard. Every conflict with these guys was one sided and they could have simply ignored it. The biggest problem is, that the player character got plot armor, so a returning focus on killing this plot armored one (and the very first Ascian you meet on level 5 or whatever already got this focus - then not - then again - then again - then not - then they could easily kill you, but don't - then not - then again - then could again, but don't - and so on) becomes at best comedical.

    In all these years, the biggest fans of FF14 story showed an attitude of a bored Superman with no moral. We are invincible anyway, we want to kill more stuff, we want to go to Garlemald and slaughter the whole nation - or when something like Zenos happened: How can this be, we are super strong and invincible, that's so dumb that we get defeated. That attitude was created by this writing. 'We' just win all the time against every baddy and that without any problem at all. We don't need plans, we don't need tactics, we don't need anything, we just win and that fast and hard. And it got worse, since in ARR and HW you at least got here and there people dying (often for stupid reason, like Shiva who only died because she tried to murder everyone on the Garlean ship, so they had to - however she even knew that the Garleans would be there and if, why just didnd't she warn us? Whatever). The conflicts just got bigger then.

    SB is a full out war against a multinational state that is absolute superior in warfare and ShB ist a post apocalyptical world with death bringing angels - which sadly are just completely lethargic, I mean, how often are these guys and there quasi zombie virus a threat during the whole addon? Urianger and Thancred alone, with no blessing of light nor echo, just slaughter an army of them off screen for example with no prob, sure. Or all the summoned 'WoL' shades. Such a joke. Not even a nameless NPC falls against them. Everything is such an easy win for us and they don't even try to make it feel like any effort was put into it.

    The fight against Elidibus for example. When you port back, then it's mainly about bad bread and telling them, that their bodies are about to die - thanks to catboy by the way - all of them just react: yeah, whatever, we just kill that immortal and super powerful mega wizard who can teleport anything at will, can see everything, can be absolute invisible and we got no clue what he gonna do nor any support of anyone, but it will be super easy, we just charge in and kill that guy. And as sad as it is, that's exactly what happens. We just charge in and kill tha guy. That's the end of an antagonist who's been around since ARR.

    It's an end good enough for Zenos, because Zenos is not doing anything but waiting for more people trying to murder him, hoping for someone to actually be good at it. But for Elidibus? Just terrible. Even worse than the completely pointless death of Emet Selch and that was already bad enough (not that it even makes sense, since we never bound Emet Selch's soul, we just punched a hole in his body).

    The needed plot armor of the player character in an online game is a problem for story telling. It's the reason why you shouldn't force the focus on this character, it deletes 90% of possibilities. But instead of writing around this, they just give almost everyone else plot armor, too. What makes the antagonist the actual main characters, because they are the one who struggle. The are the ones who got the internal and external fights. They are the ones who stand against that invincible might makes right super power that can't be stopped. And even more sad: they are the ones who more often than not go for reason instead of just kill, kill, kill. If Garlemald for example would act like us, we would simply all be dead. They are the ones holding back all the time, while we abuse this to push even further.

    This could actually make a good story - when you show that the so called heroes might not be heroes at all. But they do not tell it like this. They stay with the story, that you are invincible, all powerful and no matter what you do, you also got the moral superiority. What you do is or becomes right, what others do is always wrong.

    It's a story many people like. Because people like the feeling to be all powerful in every regard. Most people hate so much to be wrong, that they would even take part in killing others, just to keep the illusion to not having done anything wrong. It's sad, but an over and over proven fact. That's why so many are not even able to admit to be on the wrong side in a purely fictional setting, where they did not really kill anyone, where they did not really do anything wrong, since all of it is fake.




    Well, that's not what happened. The sundering didn't kill, it just fractured everything 13x. The 13th shard was also mistakenly destroyed because they tilted it too far towards dark while not setting up a dark-based calamity on the Source so that it would merge.
    So, you mean that for example the old praxis of taking people and lobotomize them to 'calm them down' is absolutely fine, since you don't 'kill that person'?

    To take someone and eleminate everything what they are, all their memories, their being, to redruce their lifespan to <1%, to take away all their skills and talents, their families, friends and to keep them respawning in this artifically created pseudo life for all eternity - or until that prison fails, killing everyone inside - that's just even more fucked up than killing someone.

    Would you be fine with someone building a machine on earth, shredding apart all humans and using their 'life force' to make small monkey humans or whatever with the life span of 1-2 monthes, extremely aggressive and even more driven by fear, egoism, hate and so on than already, on top of that seperated from each other by a gigantic wall between the continents. Would you see this as acceptable? As nothing to fight? Would you say: no, these monkey humans the machine has created which die every 2 monthes are more important than to undo this insanity and bring back humans? Not even talking about, that the work of the machine will likely cause the planet to dry out and everything dying anyway...

    And no, the story in ShB made it clear, that the Ascians didn't know, that calamities can break down the wall between the artificial dimensions. They did not go for a calamity at all. Another little part of the story is told by the small guy (we for some reason trust), the child WoL from the 13th (so they likely didn't even know where they would go with it in ShB). He tells you, that the WoLs from the 13th simlpy became so powerhungry that they wanted to consume more and more aether, becoming monsters and in the end devoured so much aether that life collapsed.

    The whole 'dark'/'light' is a thing for itself anyway. ShB established 'light' - beside being the usual light - as what we in RL know as cold, so less molecular movement. The more 'light' the less 'movement' until there is none at all anymore. In that case 'dark' is simply the same as 'warmth' in RL. It's odd and very counter intuitive, but, well, that's the story they made up.

    The actual problem of course is, that Hydaelyn's planet slaughter created the overall problem, including the imbalance. No surprise, since it's just a killer machine created by a bunch of likely utterly insane people.


    This was all explained in the Echo flashback in the CT. [spoiler]Cid would not have accumulated the knowledge he did without traveling with the WoL, it was that knowledge that led to the development of the CT being able to travel to the First. The CE also says that when he arrived at the First it was almost a century before he intended. I don't believe they knew what happened there or when, only that the First was what caused the 8th Umbral Calamity. He also says during this same cutscene that mankind was all but dying out at the time he left and he was sent back to hopefully prevent that fate.
    He risks all existence, especiall of the source, which already is 8/14 combined, for a blind shot into the dark. Great. Really great. Meanwhile we cry about 'atrocities', when it comes to soldiers of the other side who give their life for stopping primals. But us risking all existence over and over again is of course absolutely fine. Sorry, bad story telling. Actually, ugly story telling, since it sends a terrible message.

    As for Norvrandt, all of the sin eaters were dead. Yes, there was an abundance of light aether left over, but as long as people stayed away from the Empty the situation was stable.
    Sorry, how were they dead? When? In contrary, with killing 'obvious mutant fatty', these guys would have likely just ran amok. And Eden still around anyway, while we would have been thrown back. You know one of the very first scenes of Eden? When an army of sin eaters arrive? You know, the guys which should not exist anymore?



    Emet knew that without him Elidibus would be carrying on the burden alone, a burden that Emet struggled to carry, that's why he sabotaged him in the fight against the WoL so he too could be at peace and not continue to suffer for an increasingly lost cause. Elidibus couldn't even remember why he was doing what he was doing.
    So you just created a story in your head. That's fine. I don't think it makes much sense, though. They were about to win. They were about to finally, after all this, be able to heal the planet and the shattered souls inside it, and no matter what you think about it, that's what they believed in. But sure, a murder hobo comes around the corner and the existence of this murder hobo who slaughteres everything in its path suddenly gave them the idea: nah, everything is fine, we should just let everything die and give up 10m before our goal.

    No, sorry, it make no sense. Even more, the Ascians are sure, that even the shards will die. Everything will just die, when they fail, not only the real planet and the real people, also the shards and all life on it. That's what the Ascians believe in. From their PoV, we are insane, mindless monsters, mind-raped by that killer machine to make sure, that everything will find its end. And it's not like we ever even try once to make them think otherwise. We never care about even learning about the reality. We just say: we are good, everyone who is not with us is bad and will be killed. Not a single time we think about, what our victory means, where this gonna lead. But THAT would be good story telling. To just make up: us good, they bad, we kill, that's not story telling.



    I assume because it's going to be addressed at length in EW. 5.5 cutscenes: Krile says after what transpired on the first she and Y'shtola began questioning the true nature of Hydaelyn's blessing and how she's not made her will known to anyone. She's planning to look into it in the archives of Sharlayan.
    I mean, they must come up with something, sure. The thing is, when you look at SB, the story telling there was so bad (well, that was one of the reasons), because they took two countries and spread the time they got between both, leaving both - and especially Ala Migho, with too little. In EW it's even worse. Pretty much every map will be a different nation plus the moon plus some extra, still secret zone, they got all the piled up burden of everything since ARR and then they want to finish all this in 6.0? Sorry, in that case EW would have to be several times as big as all other expansions and this won't happen. SB was already cut down a lot, ShB even more, there is zero plan to change this with EW and the reason Square targets new players so much with their marketing is, that many old players left - like me (and I was one of those who stayed the longest and tried to hold many of the leaving ones, what is of course very futile, when the developers just give people less and less reasons to stay).

    That all this starts with bored sitting man 'I just want a cool endboss fight' Zenos and 'lololol me so crazy' Asahi 2.0 (that guy makes no sense anyway, why should Emet Selch/Elidibus create something like that?) does not help. They wrote themselves in a corner and they will just solve it by making it fall apart somehow with more massive retcons and plot holes, but at least it's over somehow...




    I agree with you and hopefully that is all addressed in EW. I have theories about that, but they're not backed up by anything in the game yet.
    Oh, sure, I wish this would happen, too. I wished this for years meanwhile, when SB became so odd and ShB even odder, that something happens to clean up the mess. I meanwhile just lost the hope for that. I was fine with ARR, because it still got so many possibilities. HW was a good direction. Sure, the antagonist wasn't really anything special, just 'RAGE! REVENGE!', but I liked, that it was about creating peace, ending a war. SB was the opposite of this, even the start in HW was already terrible. It's hard for to me to play 'bad/evil' in any game, it simply goes against my nature or whatever, even in fiction I just don't like it. And FF14 - it forces my character to be bad, dumb, brutal and the worst part: ignorant - and that they sell this as heroic, good behaviour just makes it worse. When I play FF14 in SB, I feel like one of those Vietnam veterans in documentations. Those also just believed the story of we are the good guys and kill the bad guys, when all this started, going down this route right and through the 'killing zones'. When those veterans talk about this first, at start it feels like they really just enjoyed it. Then, at the end, you see that they learned, how big that lie was they fell for, and how it broke them inside.

    When the Scions and Eorzan leaders come up with: we must invade Ala Migho (and make it look like it's no invasion, yeah, because telling me that makes you don't look like the usual fascist...), I don't want to follow them at all. I want to tell them, that they are crazy at best, and likely evil maniacs and that I will never go along with this.

    When Thancred comes up with: 'Let's sow chaos in Garlemald', I want to pin that guy against a wall and tell him, that he should never dare to say anything like that with me around anymore and when I find out that he goes along with that plan, that will cause the death of endless innocent people, I will hunt HIM down and end HIS life for certain.

    When Scions come up with going to Doma, to cause havoc there to distract the Garleans and make it easier for them to get over a fucking bridge!, I feel more kicking them down from this bridge than following alone with that hardcore evil CIA shit, again playing with the lives of endless innocent people.

    When Scions come up with exploiting the rites of foreign tribes to drag them into a war they don't even understand, I want to leave these guys behind at once.

    When later Yshtola makes some funny remarks about that one tribal guy and his advances, I want to slap that b*tch, because we are again just abusing these people and she could at least show some basic respect!

    When Hien talks about flooding the civil sector of a castle, destroying the most vital part of it, I think more about to put this guy in chains and just deliver him to the Garleans, ending this whole farce of an anway corrupt monarchy for good. When he talks about selling out to criminals to get some BOATS, I can only wonder who the fuck we just brought back to power here.

    When I tell Hien, that one of his officers is scared of Yotsuyu, because he HAD raped her in her childhood and all this prince/king replies to me is, that this guy is a good man, I'm more willing to punch his teeth in than to follow him any further.

    And so on, and so on, and so on...




    Eh, they do, they just don't care. You're preaching to the choir here, I am #teamrejoin. That's the problem with all of humanity, they always think their lives are important and paramount. It's especially ridiculous in the universe of FFXIV where reincarnation is confirmed and, even without that, there always seem to be a dozen different ways to cheat death.
    The way should be to find better solutions. That would have been an interesting story. This would have for example led to working together with Garleans, since they are the ones who care about this just as finding ways to solve the primal problem (and no, killing primals obviously does not solve anything at all). The meeting with Varis for example was well done - and then just thrown away. Why? For that dungeon that does not even make any sense? I mean, what exactly did we even do there? We run in, kill some border guards, run back.

    As things are, the source with 8/14 is of course quite stable. Stable enough, probably. But the shards with 1/14? People don't get, that the Ascians are not the ones ruining them, they are the ones leading this downfall in a way that does not lead to pointless destruction and instead rejoining. It was the Ascians who saved the first. Without them Ardbert and friends wouldn't have been able to go to the source. And by all means, it's way more likely than not, that they brought in Urianger by purpose. I mean, really, why else should they care to bring in him of all people? Either Ardbert succeeds in rejoining (likely by letting the beast tribes summon a primal of light), then the first is saved through this. Or Ardbert and WoL manage to make Hydaelyn stop the flood at least. The Ascians never wanted the first to become a 'void' of light, though they might have planed to save the 13th with all that light in the first.

    Such things are interesting stories. Not just 'RAAAAH!' 'REEEEEE!' 'Oh no, me dead!'.

    When you got this cutscene with Varis (a genious himself) telling how he thought he followed his own ideas, just to see that Emet Selch again just played him, that created the idea of a mastermind. But then... nothing. His 'death' should have been just that. A play. It would make so much sense. We kill him inside an illusion anyway. When we stand there after his defeat, we still are inside this illusion. And I could even accept the way Elidibus died in this case and the support from Emet Selch and part of freeing this 'fake' Elidibus from the shackles or whatever - or use Elidibus' Ghost in CT for further things. But if Hades really just died there for nothing, there is no way to save this anymore.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drindorai View Post
    And so we come back to, "It's bad because it's not what I would have done," which makes the entire conversation worthless.

    Especially in context with comments like this:



    LOL WHAT.

    Also this whole conversation about Hydaelyn keeps being framed, by dishonest actors, as if the story doesn't have a problem with her. As if she isn't responsible for the state of the universe too. And to that I just have to say have you just not been paying attention? Because it absolutely does. Literally the finale cutscene of the final zone in Shadowbringers has MULTIPLE characters telling the villain they fully understand why they feel and act the way that they do.

    Miriamel, your entire post reads like someone larping as a Garlean when people are talking about the story from an outside-the-game perspective.

    However the single sentence that made me realize you were just full of it was this one:



    ESPECIALLY as you're negatively comparing FF14 to WoW in this regard. This sentence is fuuuuucking absurd on its face with regards to WoW vs FF14.



    Been caught up to MSQ for over a month and there's plenty of stuff that I'm still doing. But thanks for dismissing it all as "ERP" I guess? The further along your post goes the more you reveal that you're just a fraudulent actor in this conversation. Frankly I'm surprised you didn't bust out the, 'HURR ITS TOO ANIME!' worthless comment in your giant wall of nonsense text.
    I won't answer to this obvious trolling.
    Last edited by Miriamel105; 2021-08-31 at 02:53 PM.

  6. #826
    Quote Originally Posted by Miriamel105 View Post
    The needed plot armor of the player character in an online game is a problem for story telling. It's the reason why you shouldn't force the focus on this character, it deletes 90% of possibilities.
    I may not prefer roleplaying the hero as opposed to an anti-hero or mercenary, but having spent years playing MMOs where my character may as well not exist I can confidently say I prefer FFXIV's method. I'm also not a fan of storytelling where characters have to die left and right to prove they don't have plot armor. This more often than not leads to shock value deaths that serve no purpose to develop the remaining characters or move the plot forward.

    What makes the antagonist the actual main characters, because they are the one who struggle. The are the ones who got the internal and external fights. They are the ones who stand against that invincible might makes right super power that can't be stopped.
    The problem is the Ascians got no love until ShB. They were your typical black-robed, followers of a "dark god" villains who presented as a supernatural cult. There wasn't any reason to like let alone sympathize with them. Their 'plan' seemed to be little more than to sow chaos, we were given no other context. Going back and applying ShB writing to the rest of the game doesn't work because they didn't know that was the direction they were going until the end of SB (Emet didn't even exist until then).

    To take someone and eleminate everything what they are, all their memories, their being, to redruce their lifespan to <1%, to take away all their skills and talents, their families, friends and to keep them respawning in this artifically created pseudo life for all eternity - or until that prison fails, killing everyone inside - that's just even more fucked up than killing someone.
    I'm no fan of Hydaelyn and I will be sorely disappointed if what she did is not addressed in EW. The fact that they used the name Venat for the leader of the dissidents was not lost on me. I hated the story of FFXII because of her. She made it sound like she was doing humanity a favor by giving them free will while ignoring her own hypocrisy (following the Occuria is bad, unless it's Venat then it's fine) and instigating devastating wars.

    And no, the story in ShB made it clear, that the Ascians didn't know, that calamities can break down the wall between the artificial dimensions. They did not go for a calamity at all. Another little part of the story is told by the small guy (we for some reason trust), the child WoL from the 13th (so they likely didn't even know where they would go with it in ShB). He tells you, that the WoLs from the 13th simlpy became so powerhungry that they wanted to consume more and more aether, becoming monsters and in the end devoured so much aether that life collapsed.
    The whole reason for calamities on the Source is because of the failure on the 13th. They're required to break down the barrier to allow a rejoining. Emet explained this in the CT. Unukalhai said the heroes of the 13th wouldn't work together and each one acting alone wasn't enough to save the shard, the cause of it was still the Ascians tilting the shard toward umbral.

    Sorry, how were they dead? When? In contrary, with killing 'obvious mutant fatty', these guys would have likely just ran amok.
    It's said during the storyline that only a few scattered remain that can easily be handled by the dozens of WoLs that Elidibus triggered in the Crystarium.

    Even more, the Ascians are sure, that even the shards will die. Everything will just die, when they fail, not only the real planet and the real people, also the shards and all life on it. That's what the Ascians believe in.
    I can't recall a single instance where this was ever expressed and since I've long held the theory that the current situation is unsustainable in perpetuity I would've latched onto anything canon that would support it. The Ascians want to bring back their civilization before everything went wrong, that's the gist of it.

    Sorry, in that case EW would have to be several times as big as all other expansions and this won't happen.
    Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree. It depends on how literally we take what they said about EW being the end of the Zodiark & Hydaelyn arc. I feel like ShB was too big of a lore dump to be done with everything by 6.1 and ready to move onto a new story. Are all the shards going to rejoin in EW? No? Are all the sundered Ascians going to cease to exist in EW (considering the WoL is one)? No? Okay, the there's still a LOT left to address.

    It was the Ascians who saved the first. Without them Ardbert and friends wouldn't have been able to go to the source. And by all means, it's way more likely than not, that they brought in Urianger by purpose. I mean, really, why else should they care to bring in him of all people? Either Ardbert succeeds in rejoining (likely by letting the beast tribes summon a primal of light), then the first is saved through this. Or Ardbert and WoL manage to make Hydaelyn stop the flood at least. The Ascians never wanted the first to become a 'void' of light, though they might have planed to save the 13th with all that light in the first.
    Mitron, Ascian, caused the Flood of Light. Emet had orchestrated a light-based calamity on the Source using Black Rose, which works by tilting people's aether towards light. The reason the 8th Umbral Calamity was going to be so devastating is the influx of light aether from the First was going to increase the potency of Black Rose exponentially. I would've thought the First could've been used to counterbalance the 13th, but that's not the story we got.

    Elidibus has a LONG history of manipulating people into thinking joining him is the right thing to do, Urianger was no different. Ardbert & Co. were tricked into thinking the First could be saved because he never told them a rejoining would've caused their world to cease to exist. It's like saying Ardbert was 'saved' by merging with the WoL. Technically, maybe true, but we also now have a weird "Get Out" sort of thing going on where we're supposed to be one person, but he still exists in there somewhere.


    I don't have anything to say about Garlemald or the Garleans. I haven't personally found much likeable about them. They're just sort of there as a continuous military threat with little of interest that isn't related to the Ascians. The Allagans are a lot more fascinating.
    "People with depression score higher on tests of realism. Intelligence is positively correlated with mental illness and suicide. What this indicates is that if the mind understands too much about reality, it wants to destroy itself. Human life is existential horror."

  7. #827
    Story is fine. Nothing to write home about. Pacing is often bogged down by archaic mmo fetch quests and what not. Lack of endgame progression and any meaningful gear acquisition really turns me off.

  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by Lane View Post
    I may not prefer roleplaying the hero as opposed to an anti-hero or mercenary, but having spent years playing MMOs where my character may as well not exist I can confidently say I prefer FFXIV's method. I'm also not a fan of storytelling where characters have to die left and right to prove they don't have plot armor. This more often than not leads to shock value deaths that serve no purpose to develop the remaining characters or move the plot forward.
    You can have a focus on the player character, but then you simply can't make this focus all about death. Because it will make it stupid. It will make the antagonists stupid, incompetent loser who never succeed in anything. And for a good story it's simply not enough to have a protagonist. The antagonist must also be well written. But when the protagonists always wins and the antagonists always lose, especially in a darker scenario that tries to be serious, can't simply not lead to good writing. It lead to the typical problem of bad writers, where you see, that things just happen, because there is this author who wants it to happen. Good writing is about avoiding this, it's about making the characters and their decisions feel real and alive, that's the core of 'suspension of disbelief'.



    The problem is the Ascians got no love until ShB. They were your typical black-robed, followers of a "dark god" villains who presented as a supernatural cult. There wasn't any reason to like let alone sympathize with them. Their 'plan' seemed to be little more than to sow chaos, we were given no other context. Going back and applying ShB writing to the rest of the game doesn't work because they didn't know that was the direction they were going until the end of SB (Emet didn't even exist until then).
    Yes, the start wasn't good. It mainly worked better, because it was still the start and the plot holes weren't plot holes yet, just undiscovered land. Now, after discovering it, those are indeed just plot holes which make no sense. This aside, you still at least go the focus of the Ascians on Hydaelyn from the start. They simply presented this focus in a terrible 'MUAHAHAHA, ME EVIL' way. Just as the way they let Gaius speech distorted what he actually stand for quite a lot. Gaius speech isn't a bad one. You need power. Only evil people will tell you otherwise, so you let it slip and them have it. Power is nothing you can get rid of. It's always there. And if you don't work with it, if you don't take care of it, it will be used against you. His speech is about that. The incompetent leader will lead for desperation means to gain power, not with order and reason, but with violence and alike. He kind of fell for it himself, being powerless in regard of defeating primals even more being unable to wield magic, that's why they went for searching and researching technology. Of course not even Allag knew about Ultima's heart, so how should he? Well, many of his people paid with their lives for this mistake. - But such things happen. It's one of the things that make Gaius a much, much more interesting character than WoL or any Scion.



    [quote]I'm no fan of Hydaelyn and I will be sorely disappointed if what she did is not addressed in EW. The fact that they used the name Venat for the leader of the dissidents was not lost on me. I hated the story of FFXII because of her. She made it sound like she was doing humanity a favor by giving them free will while ignoring her own hypocrisy (following the Occuria is bad, unless it's Venat then it's fine) and instigating devastating wars. [/spoiler][quote]
    Indeed, FF12 Venat was no good being. I get the attention, but the ways were bad and brutal. At least the FF12 Venat got an understandable goal, though. What happens in FF14 is absolutely awful in comparison. It's like the typical AI story you got, where the AI sees: humans destroy themselves and the planet so better destroy humans. What would be okay, but then the story tells you: this is the right way to act and you should murder many many people to defend this! That's pretts sick.


    The whole reason for calamities on the Source is because of the failure on the 13th. They're required to break down the barrier to allow a rejoining. Emet explained this in the CT. Unukalhai said the heroes of the 13th wouldn't work together and each one acting alone wasn't enough to save the shard, the cause of it was still the Ascians tilting the shard toward umbral.
    I know the whole story in and out. Emet Selch explained, that they learned from the collapsing 13th shard, that this crushes the barriers between the collapsing shard and the source, so they got the idea how to heal the planet by collapsing the shards and reuniting it with the core again.

    And no, Unukalhai explained, that they became monsters, distorted by greed and hunger for more power and that other WoL (it seems they got a bunch of them the same time in contraty to the source which got only one?) were not strong enough to fight that, likely meaning especially himself being just a kid. That kid is a manipulative bastard, though, I'm not sure how much you should trust him. Garlemald was just there to look for means to bind primals (simply finding out, that those are all failures). It's that kid which tries to enforce violence over and over again.

    And no, I don't even count the scene after which Shiva dies. If they wanted to murder us, they could have done this. Easily. They got high tech weapons and surprise attack. They could have one shot us without any problem. Them shooting at us was just to shoo us away. Shiva's death was absolutelty pointless and it would have been enough anyway to just distract them. That they have to kill her, if she tries to kill them: yeah, of course. When is the moment in which the the Legatus give the obvious order to kill her? After her try to destroy them. He knew, who Shiva is, he very likely didn't want to kill her before her murderous attack.

    It's always interesting to see how much Garlemald knows about everything that happens in Eorza. They could have easily abused this. And never did. Again something that makes the antagonists sadly far more interesting than the bland protagonists.




    It's said during the storyline that only a few scattered remain that can easily be handled by the dozens of WoLs that Elidibus triggered in the Crystarium.
    You mean in 5.3? Fine, whoever said this and how that person should know this is true (and how this should have happened in any way), the problem is: that would be quite later. With the plan going the way catboy wanted, CT and everyone from the source would have been thrown back right after the defeat of the fat mutant. With Emet Selch still alive, Eden around and Elidibus able to do as he pleases.



    I can't recall a single instance where this was ever expressed and since I've long held the theory that the current situation is unsustainable in perpetuity I would've latched onto anything canon that would support it. The Ascians want to bring back their civilization before everything went wrong, that's the gist of it.
    It's mentioned several time, the first very obvious one right from Lahabrea, about Hydaelyn being a parasite distorting reality. Beside this, everything supports this. How easy the 13th fell, how easy the first fell, the pure logic, that cutting a planet into pieces by something created by a bunch of people in their hobby cellar and so on. The game actually never gives any reason to think this can work out. Hydarlyn lies to you about being some super goddess of light and life, so as long as this was a theory, you could argue about, that some super potent god thing may be able to do something this insane. The moment Hydaelyn became nothing but a tool to cut Zodiark (= the planet) into slices, there is not really much hope left. Sure, in the end it's fiction, in fiction everything will just happen as the writer want it. But only if there is a reason it's good story telling. As writer you can of course just write that little Joey farted and suddenly the universe was completely changed and Joey was the uber god of everything. That's easy.

    That the Scions and WoL never care about even asking this question: yes, that's exactly the problem.



    Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree. It depends on how literally we take what they said about EW being the end of the Zodiark & Hydaelyn arc. I feel like ShB was too big of a lore dump to be done with everything by 6.1 and ready to move onto a new story. Are all the shards going to rejoin in EW? No? Are all the sundered Ascians going to cease to exist in EW (considering the WoL is one)? No? Okay, the there's still a LOT left to address.
    They wasted too much time on nonsense. How often did we have a patch about doing stuff like: oh, the major of this lust palace got a little crisis, let's spend the MSQ of the whole patch about this, then delivering interesting stuff like what's going in Garlemald in a cutscene in the end, because that's of course not something you would want to play throught - and what woud probably help to build up the story for EW...

    The problem likely is, as the developers said themselves, that they like to just don't tell much, so they can continue to make up stuff as they please without havint to retcon too much. But, sorry, that's not a plan. It's okay to some regard but somewhere toward the middle you really, really must start to plan your story toward the end at least the bigger parts and then work with and toward those. No need to tell everything, but EW will be 6.0 and there is still almost nothing known about Garlemald, Ascians/Ancients, Hydaelyn, Zodiark and not even the home nation of the Scions. And we already know, that a big part of the patch will be the usual circlejerk around the Scions anyway, so that's already a lot of occupied space. You got Zenos, who actually would have to be build up after two full expansions. You got that new Ascian who appeared out of nowhere who also has to be build up. You have to give every nation you visit some background at least, again already occupied space. It's simply way, way, way, way too much.





    Mitron, Ascian, caused the Flood of Light. Emet had orchestrated a light-based calamity on the Source using Black Rose, which works by tilting people's aether towards light. The reason the 8th Umbral Calamity was going to be so devastating is the influx of light aether from the First was going to increase the potency of Black Rose exponentially. I would've thought the First could've been used to counterbalance the 13th, but that's not the story we got.

    Elidibus has a LONG history of manipulating people into thinking joining him is the right thing to do, Urianger was no different. Ardbert & Co. were tricked into thinking the First could be saved because he never told them a rejoining would've caused their world to cease to exist. It's like saying Ardbert was 'saved' by merging with the WoL. Technically, maybe true, but we also now have a weird "Get Out" sort of thing going on where we're supposed to be one person, but he still exists in there somewhere.


    I don't have anything to say about Garlemald or the Garleans. I haven't personally found much likeable about them. They're just sort of there as a continuous military threat with little of interest that isn't related to the Ascians. The Allagans are a lot more fascinating.
    Again, I know the story. Mitron did not do this on purpose, but was distorted. Black Rose was just a trigger - they could have used anything else that is light aspected. What we were told was just a one sided story anyway and how bad can it be, when you are able to create the impossible? It's again full of plot holes anyway. Why should the Ascians even let them do this? These guys are still around in that future and got a lot of time to react. I hate that guy anyway for doing it, next time just send a warning, pretty sure even Garlemald itself would have liked to know this. The people of the source of this future were against it for obvious reaons but he gave a fuck. That the source would be ruined by Ascians makes no sense. The source is the planet the Ascians want to restore, not ruin. That it was a bad future was likely more cause by all the violence that is already the biggest problem, now.

    It IS the story we got. The plan of the Ascians was to use the light to bring the void to the source, what makes absolutely sense. They need the 13th. Else the source would never be really complete. Ardbert just ruined this plan.

    Elidibus got absolutely no reason at all to trust Urianger in any way if he did not simply just work with that possibility. Makes no sense at all, otherwise. Urianger delivers nothing of worth toward the group, only this possibility.

    No, Ardbert knew completely, that they worked on a rejoining. It was all about saving the souls of the first, not the first itself he saw as lost. Of course the first would cease to exist, but the souls and all aether woud be rejoined with the source and could be reborn.

    Ardbert was already dead, they said this themselves, that they had given their lives to go to the source. He then was simply made a ghost/plot device for exactly this reason, to join up with the WoL - what is actually pretty lazy writing with no way really leading up to this. Don't know what other reason there could be for this absurdity beside Hydaelyn just knowing that this would happen somehow for plot reasons.

    at Garlemald:

    It's the problem of the writing. They are actually the most reasoneable people, with some assholes around, sure, as all sides, but those are partly just very bad writing, like the Weapon story guy (his plan makes zero sense, it's just stupid from start to end) and/or not seen as good people there, too. I don't know what the problem would be, if Garlemald just succeeds. The worst part of service there seems to be being targeted by terrorists. Beside this they bring order, education, safity, technology (and even non Garleans are rarely good with magic) and care about getting rid of the primal threat and saving the planet. What do we fight for against this? From criminals (pirates), criminals (corrupt oligarchs), monarchists, nationalists, theocrats with most of them would have destroyed their nation without the magical super weapon WoL who kills all their problems. And we follow everything Ascians want all the time on top of this. Whole SB for example, from start to end 100% an Ascian plan. Who moves along with it? Us. Who doesn't? Garlemald.

    What I hear most from people who hate Garlemald is just pure nationalism - as if that ever led to anything good. Both Doma and Ala Migho could have thriven perfectly without their terrorist groups, especially Ala Migho could need Garlean technology a lot plus being part of a big nation and its merchant network. But of course as long as terrorists randomly murder people from the shadows - in case of Ala Migho even their own people, even if they are just kids, wtf?! - no merchant likes to to there. But sure, now they are a colony of the super corrupt Uldah, this will help for sure, working in salt mines, while Doma is not even able to build a small village on their own - after their prince completely ruined the only city they got to get his throne back...

  9. #829
    Quote Originally Posted by Velnora View Post
    Story is fine. Nothing to write home about. Pacing is often bogged down by archaic mmo fetch quests and what not. Lack of endgame progression and any meaningful gear acquisition really turns me off.
    Sad as it is, it got some more cvariets at least in costumisation of your character. Gear was always a lackluster. Over time they just got rid of absolutely everything. It's their way to 'fix' things, they just cut them off - and don't replace them with anything. Did not really help with feeling entertained when you are an 'old players'.

    Most people who cheer now how much there is to do simplay haven't played the game in all these years. Take gold saucer for example. Nice idea, but they did not really make anything out of it. You got something very little every years and close to no rewards - since they like it way more to sell stuff in their cash shop.

    Wouldn't be reason enough for me to stop playing the game, but it's also no plus.

    For a game that got its most prominent selling point in switchig classes, it's also not understandable how they don't work at all around that with gear. It does not really help to have all jobs, when the weeky lockouts will keep you down in gearing all of them up.

  10. #830
    The Undying Cthulhu 2020's Avatar
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    One thing I'd like to know is, what do people consider "meaningful" gear progression? Considering every MMO I've played in the last decade, you raid to get gear that will help you raid better and do nothing else, FFXIV is pretty standard in that regard. I don't think I've played a game where gear was anything more than a way to kill raids faster. And look better sometimes.
    "Nazis are like cats. If they like you, it's probably because you're feeding them." -John Oliver
    Quote Originally Posted by Knadra View Post
    I don't care if he committed tax fraud. Scoring political victories and crushing the aspirations of your political opponents is more important than adhering to moral principles.
    Knadra finally just admitting Trumpkins care more about political victories than morals.

  11. #831
    Titan Val the Moofia Boss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    One thing I'd like to know is, what do people consider "meaningful" gear progression? Considering every MMO I've played in the last decade, you raid to get gear that will help you raid better and do nothing else, FFXIV is pretty standard in that regard. I don't think I've played a game where gear was anything more than a way to kill raids faster. And look better sometimes.
    You won't find meaningful gear progression in any of these gear treadmill themepark MMOs. You will only find it in 20+ year oldschool MMOs like Ultima Online or FFXI, where if you did a quest to obtain a special belt at level 30 (or in SWG, bought it from a crafter because the best gear is crafted and isn't a drop), you were still using at level 75 because the effect on it was so good for one particular build. Also, even if you got stuff that wasn't optimal for you to use, you could still give it to a friend who would get a lot of use out of it, and it felt like a special gift. Or you could sell it for a ton of money.

    In themepark MMOs with gear treadmill like FFXIV, gear is nothing special. It's just a stat stick you forget about and replace in a couple hours anyway. Any drops you get are soulbound to you so you can't give it away or make money off of it. Crafted gear isn't the best gear in the game so crafters aren't very powerful.

  12. #832
    Hm, okay, seems this forum got no moderation but a fascists ruler who does what he pleases. In this case I will leave this shit place behind, if I waste my times with fascists I won't do this over a game.

  13. #833
    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu 2020 View Post
    One thing I'd like to know is, what do people consider "meaningful" gear progression? Considering every MMO I've played in the last decade, you raid to get gear that will help you raid better and do nothing else, FFXIV is pretty standard in that regard. I don't think I've played a game where gear was anything more than a way to kill raids faster. And look better sometimes.
    This has kind of always been my argument especially when people compare WoW and FF14. I honestly don't notice or care about the gear stats in either game. 99% of the time, both games ilvl is king so it doesn't even matter (barring trinkets). I wouldn't even be mad if they scrapped "gearing" entirely and made it fully cosmetic. Obviously I'd hope for that resource to go somewhere else interesting in the game, but that's how little I care about stats on gear and I say this as a savage/mythic raider with good parses.

  14. #834
    Over 9000! Poppincaps's Avatar
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    Yeah, gearing in this game isn't the best, but I haven't seen any MMO with vertical progression that had an interesting gearing system. At the very least FF14 makes gear a relatively painless experience whereas "other MMOs" require a large time investment to progress your character.

  15. #835
    I'd say it's just more about your time not being thrown away on RNG. Spending an hour to do something to get nothing is not meaningful, especially if even if you get the drop it's still up to 5 RNG factors to determine if it's actually an upgrade. If you can point to the specific item(s) you want and work your way towards it, then everything you do is meaningful, and you will eventually get there. That's exactly how FF's gearing philosophy works, and it's not exclusive to savage raiders.

    As for stand out items, those exist in FF, primarily as glam, and you work towards those as well. Relics, glowy gear, etc. People still wear things from ARR because they look cool, and you can go get those now even if it takes a bit of work.

  16. #836
    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    You won't find meaningful gear progression in any of these gear treadmill themepark MMOs. You will only find it in 20+ year oldschool MMOs like Ultima Online or FFXI, where if you did a quest to obtain a special belt at level 30 (or in SWG, bought it from a crafter because the best gear is crafted and isn't a drop), you were still using at level 75 because the effect on it was so good for one particular build. Also, even if you got stuff that wasn't optimal for you to use, you could still give it to a friend who would get a lot of use out of it, and it felt like a special gift. Or you could sell it for a ton of money.

    In themepark MMOs with gear treadmill like FFXIV, gear is nothing special. It's just a stat stick you forget about and replace in a couple hours anyway. Any drops you get are soulbound to you so you can't give it away or make money off of it. Crafted gear isn't the best gear in the game so crafters aren't very powerful.
    By progression, I view having meaningful ways to increase in power over time. Being able to get to level cap, and geared out in a matter of hours is uninspiring and dull. Further gets compounded with patch dungeons having gear, that is already obsolete upon release.

  17. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by Velnora View Post
    By progression, I view having meaningful ways to increase in power over time. Being able to get to level cap, and geared out in a matter of hours is uninspiring and dull. Further gets compounded with patch dungeons having gear, that is already obsolete upon release.
    You can't be geared out in a matter of hours. 530 is current gear, the best you can do instantly is 510 upgraded to 520 with quite a bit of grinding. If you farm uncapped tomes to get 490 crystarium gear then run Paglth'an to get in 505 you can jump in current content without crafted gear, which is a viable gearing alternative while you work on 530 which takes a while, even at 900 tomes a week.

  18. #838
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    This has kind of always been my argument especially when people compare WoW and FF14. I honestly don't notice or care about the gear stats in either game. 99% of the time, both games ilvl is king so it doesn't even matter (barring trinkets). I wouldn't even be mad if they scrapped "gearing" entirely and made it fully cosmetic. Obviously I'd hope for that resource to go somewhere else interesting in the game, but that's how little I care about stats on gear and I say this as a savage/mythic raider with good parses.
    Which is kinda unfortunate, since there's a lot of depth that could be added if there were meaningful decisions about stat points to be made (do I want to be really avoidant as a rogue, or deadly, etc...), although perhaps that's best just left to talents.

  19. #839
    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    Which is kinda unfortunate, since there's a lot of depth that could be added if there were meaningful decisions about stat points to be made (do I want to be really avoidant as a rogue, or deadly, etc...), although perhaps that's best just left to talents.
    How so? I'd be curious to see how they could improve gear stats and make them meaningful decisions without some completely bonkers overhaul. I'm just thinking of all the games I've played over the years to see how gear could be more interesting and sure there are some ideas, but generally gear has always boiled down to throughput, defense, or glamour.

  20. #840
    Quote Originally Posted by BiggestNoob View Post
    You can't be geared out in a matter of hours. 530 is current gear, the best you can do instantly is 510 upgraded to 520 with quite a bit of grinding. If you farm uncapped tomes to get 490 crystarium gear then run Paglth'an to get in 505 you can jump in current content without crafted gear, which is a viable gearing alternative while you work on 530 which takes a while, even at 900 tomes a week.
    My issue is that there is no incentive to get to 530. A fresh 80 can buy a full set of 510 crafted gear and be able to do...well, pretty much all of the content the endgame offers. There's also nothing exciting about gear itself apart from the glamour. They're all just stat increases across the board...no weapons or trinkets or rings with unique effects.

    It's not a serious problem for me, since I don't play the game seriously, but a more in-depth system would certainly be welcome. I would go out of my way to join a static and jump into the hardest content if there was a more interesting progression in gear and specific items that I could set as goals.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    How so? I'd be curious to see how they could improve gear stats and make them meaningful decisions without some completely bonkers overhaul. I'm just thinking of all the games I've played over the years to see how gear could be more interesting and sure there are some ideas, but generally gear has always boiled down to throughput, defense, or glamour.
    Set bonuses are the example I always share. It gives you a reason to aim for specific drops, even if the set bonuses aren't crazy unique, and makes the gear more memorable. I still fondly remember some of the set bonuses from WoW.

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