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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Magical Mudcrab View Post
    That's sort of the problem though, this is the company's problem and not the customer's. If mismanagement has caused employee walkouts and content delays to occur, then it is on the company and its management to rectify the situation. It isn't unreasonable if players ask for temporary suspension in game fees for active accounts if ongoing development for a live service game is halted because of this, and it has been ridiculous how senior members at Blizzard, who likely knew about the sexual misconduct and did nothing but now want to claim social points, are the ones calling out players for being disgruntled. This isn't to say that it's the fault of the rank-and-file employees or that it's unreasonable for development to be slowed as internal restructuring occurs (i.e.: purging the abusers and the enablers), but it is unreasonable to expect paying customers to be content with this.
    It’s fair to request a suspension of fees. Especially since the company needs to realise the internal matters take precedent and content can’t possibly be pushed out right now. That said, the way some people are behaving right now is disgusting. So no one is showering themselves in glory.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Explosivo View Post
    ...at what point did i defend the guy's tweet? in your reality is it normal and acceptable to threaten ultra-violence on someone based on a decision about a VIDEO game and a response to it? is that your reality? because i think very little rises to a level where "i would smash this guys head into a wall until his brains flush out" is reasonable. Is it reasonable to you?
    Its not reasonable, its still reality. Thats just the truth.

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    It really does show how out of touch you are if you think your position as a consumer in this situation is akin to that of an employee being the target of harassment.

    Again, you're within your right to comment and to have your opinion. Just don't act surprised when you're called out for being part of the problem as a result. Apparently "actions have consequences" is something both you and Blizzard are just now learning.
    Nowhere have I said that I'm in the same position, but I have applied the idea of dealing with matters in absolutes in order to show how absolutely foolish it is; what I've said in many previous posts is that my and many others' engagement with Blizzard is based on certain things that have no relation to Blizzard, as a company, not being able to create a workplace culture that abides by the law of the state it operates in.

    To compare me with Blizzard on this matter is exactly the problem and the reason why so many take the stance that I'm taking. To ask for a game and franchise you are/have been engaged in to be improved does not make someone part of a sexual harassment problem at a company. It also doesn't mean that I or anyone else isn't against sexual harassment because said problem it is a despicable thing. It means that others are authorized and paid to do their job in regards to this problem.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-07-27 at 09:54 PM.

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarez View Post
    Its not reasonable, its still reality. Thats just the truth.
    Cool, so the reality is that players are being treated like commodities, same as the employees are. It’s just the truth. Oh well. Let’s move on.

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    It isn't unreasonable to stop working at a company you don't like the working environment in either.

    It is really easy to deal in absolutes, isn't it? I'm very close to making a Star Wars reference.
    Varying degrees of reasonability do not make an absolute. Stop.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    Cool, so the reality is that fans are being treated like commodities, same as the employees are. It’s just the truth. Oh well. Let’s move on.
    That's the backbone of the US economy!
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  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    How detached from reality do you need to be to continuously twist his words into something he did not say? He never blamed the customers for the internal issues. What he did say is that if you care more about game content than the company trying to fix it's issues, you are part of the problem. How about you and others stop the dishonesty about what he actually said?
    Maybe work on your reading skills?

    >you are part of the problem
    >the problems are internal problems at the company
    >you are part of the problems at the company

    it's literally what he said. there is no twisting. as a paying customer, I have a right to the product i have purchased. if people want to demand that they dont halt the production of that product to solve their issues, while the company even continues to charge them the same rate nontheless... then they're not part of the mysogyistic issues blizzard has. stating anything of that sorts detaches you from reality where you are a service provider and we are paying customers.

    if they said we'll have x months of free game time, or store vouchers, while they halt the production to address internal issues, nobody would have said anything. id even argue that his whole tweet would have been taken in an entirely different light. but he's just a dev after all. he cannot make such decisions. maybe he should also not be making inane tweets and focus on his job: development.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrst View Post
    Cool, so the reality is that players are being treated like commodities, same as the employees are. It’s just the truth. Oh well. Let’s move on.
    Does the truth make you that uncomfortable? do what you can to change it within your own sphere. if enough people do the same, things will change.
    but everyone who has spent some time in these spheres knows exactly what kind of cesspool youre invoking when you make statements such as these via social media.
    Last edited by Tsarez; 2021-07-27 at 10:00 PM.

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by World Peace View Post
    Varying degrees of reasonability do not make an absolute. Stop.

    !
    Varying degrees of reasonability? Where are those varying degrees of reasonability when players are being called part of a sexual harassment problem, at a company whose workplace culture they have no power over? When such players are called despicable names in their own right?

    Varying degrees of reasonability is exactly what I'm asking for. Sexual harassment is one of the most despicable things one can do, but that's why the state of California will look into the matter.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-07-27 at 10:02 PM.

  8. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarez View Post
    Maybe work on your reading skills?

    >you are part of the problem
    >the problems are internal problems at the company
    >you are part of the problems at the company

    it's literally what he said. there is no twisting. as a paying customer, I have a right to the product i have purchased. if people want to demand that they dont halt the production of that product to solve their issues, while the company even continues to charge them the same rate nontheless... then they're not part of the mysogyistic issues blizzard has. stating anything of that sorts detaches you from reality where you are a service provider and we are paying customers.

    if they said we'll have x months of free game time, or store vouchers, while they halt the production to address internal issues, nobody would have said anything. id even argue that his whole tweet would have been taken in an entirely different light. but he's just a dev after all. he cannot make such decisions. maybe he should also not be making inane tweets and focus on his job: development.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Does the truth make you that uncomfortable? do what you can to change it within your own sphere. if enough people do the same, things will change.
    but everyone who has spent some time in these spheres knows exactly what kind of cesspool youre invoking when you make statements such as these via social media.
    I was being sarcastic. Truth is no one should be commoditised. It needs to change. We can't just 'move on' from the matter glibly.

    There is no version of the cesspool being invoked that changes the absolute truth that it's unacceptable.
    Last edited by Valkyrst; 2021-07-27 at 10:07 PM.

  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    This is probably the most convoluted take on that tweet I've seen so far. If you're main gripe is that the dev isn't in a position to say it, then I'll say it: if you're more concerned about getting your video game fix than letting the company take the time to address and hopefully fix systemic workplace safety issues then YOU are part of the problem.

    You are indeed free to say you're only here for the games, and taking that kind of stance does indeed make you "part of the problem". Blame isn't being shifted away from the management that allowed such a toxic work environment to fester. No one is suggesting that customers who didn't know what was going on within the company were active participants in the harassment in question. However, when that knowledge is brought to light and a portion of the customer base essentially responds with "shut up and get back to work", they are indeed helping to perpetuate these sorts of things.
    Next time a bank is caught having employees committing fraud go telling their customers "If all you care about is your bank account getting frozen for mismanagement then you're part of the problem". See how that works out.

    We're customers, not bros or pals, and this isn't Cuba.
    We're strangers whom they owe service because we paid for that. Comprende?
    We couldn't care less about personal internal problems that they allowed to grow beyond control and we're in no way responsible for it, but we expect you to provide the continued service you promised upon taking our money in time, still.

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Nowhere have I said that I'm in the same position, but I have applied the idea of dealing with matters in absolutes in order to show how absolutely foolish it is; what I've said in many previous posts is that my and many others' engagement with Blizzard is based on certain things that have no relation to Blizzard, as a company, not being able to create a workplace culture that abides by the law of the state it operates in.

    To compare me with Blizzard on this matter is exactly the problem and the reason why so many take the stance that I'm taking. To ask for a game and franchise you are/have been engaged in to be improved does not make someone part of a sexual harassment problem at a company. It also doesn't mean that I or anyone else isn't against sexual harassment because said problem it is a despicable thing. It means that others are authorized and paid to do their job in regards to this problem.
    Ok, this seems to be an issue of your own making where you're apparently compelled to equate separate points that are not equivalent. The only one dealing in absolutes is you. You said "That amounts to saying..." and then proceeded to compare two things that aren't comparable (playing a game vs having a job). Now you're suggesting that calling you out for being part of the problem is the same as saying that you were in the offices harassing employees yourself. I'm not comparing you WITH Blizzard. As a customer, you're doing something completely different that is ALSO harmful.

    There are many ways to be "part of the problem". One of those is ACTIVELY putting the situation behind your desires as a consumer. You can say you're against harassment all you want, but when you go in public and say the company should focus more on what you want instead of providing a safe working environment then you're taking a step to perpetuating that sort of behavior. It's certainly different than being a manager belittling their employees, but it's still problematic in a different way.

    No one is saying you should stop caring about the game. The issue is priorities. Yeah, I understand that your relationship with Blizzard has been strictly producer/consumer. Mine was too. The difference is that I recognize, given this situation, that things NEED to change. If updates are delayed then that's a necessary part of the process (and seriously, 9.1 JUST released. We weren't getting another big patch for a while). Supporting Blizzard taking the time to address the issues does not mean you no longer care about the game.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarez View Post
    Maybe work on your reading skills?

    >you are part of the problem
    >the problems are internal problems at the company
    >you are part of the problems at the company

    it's literally what he said. there is no twisting. as a paying customer, I have a right to the product i have purchased. if people want to demand that they dont halt the production of that product to solve their issues, while the company even continues to charge them the same rate nontheless... then they're not part of the mysogyistic issues blizzard has. stating anything of that sorts detaches you from reality where you are a service provider and we are paying customers.

    if they said we'll have x months of free game time, or store vouchers, while they halt the production to address internal issues, nobody would have said anything. id even argue that his whole tweet would have been taken in an entirely different light. but he's just a dev after all. he cannot make such decisions. maybe he should also not be making inane tweets and focus on his job: development.
    "The problem" is toxic work environments in general, and customers coming out to publicly say they care more about the product than the well-being of the people making that product does indeed help perpetuate "the problem". This isn't something specific to Blizzard alone.

    People also seem to misunderstand exactly what it is they're paying for. You pay a monthly subscription for nothing but access. That's it. You don't own anything on your account and you are not entitled to updates and patches. Nothing on Blizzard's end of the transaction has changed, so why would you expect free game time? I'm not saying that would be a bad thing, but it would just be a good faith gesture. Certainly not something that should be expected. If you want to lump the expectation of future content as a reason to sub, then that's on you and you really shouldn't be getting 6 month sub bundles since there's no guarantee that you'll get exactly what you want over that time.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Varying degrees of reasonability? Where are those varying degrees of reasonability when players are being called part of a sexual harassment problem, at a company whose workplace culture they have no power over? When such players are called despicable names in their own right?

    Varying degrees of reasonability is exactly what I'm asking for. Sexual harassment is one of the most despicable things one can do, but that's why the state of California will look into the matter.
    You brought up absolutes in reference to what I posted. Not sure what the rest of this has to do with that point.
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  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    This is probably the most convoluted take on that tweet I've seen so far. If you're main gripe is that the dev isn't in a position to say it, then I'll say it: if you're more concerned about getting your video game fix than letting the company take the time to address and hopefully fix systemic workplace safety issues then YOU are part of the problem.

    You are indeed free to say you're only here for the games, and taking that kind of stance does indeed make you "part of the problem". Blame isn't being shifted away from the management that allowed such a toxic work environment to fester. No one is suggesting that customers who didn't know what was going on within the company were active participants in the harassment in question. However, when that knowledge is brought to light and a portion of the customer base essentially responds with "shut up and get back to work", they are indeed helping to perpetuate these sorts of things.
    Next time a bank is caught having employees committing fraud go telling their customers "If all you care about are your savings getting frozen for mismanagement then you're part of the problem". See how that works out.

    We're customers, not their bros or pals, and this isn't Cuba.
    We're strangers whom they owe service because we paid for the promise of said service. Comprende?
    We couldn't care less about a company's personal internal problems that they allowed to grow beyond control and now they're paying the price, we're in no way responsible for it, but we still expect you to provide the continued service you promised upon taking our money, still.

    There's nothing "scummy" in expecting a company to uphold their end of the bargain we both signed for.
    Last edited by Nimin; 2021-07-27 at 10:58 PM.

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Ok, this seems to be an issue of your own making where you're apparently compelled to equate separate points that are not equivalent. The only one dealing in absolutes is you. You said "That amounts to saying..." and then proceeded to compare two things that aren't comparable (playing a game vs having a job). Now you're suggesting that calling you out for being part of the problem is the same as saying that you were in the offices harassing employees yourself. I'm not comparing you WITH Blizzard. As a customer, you're doing something completely different that is ALSO harmful.

    There are many ways to be "part of the problem". One of those is ACTIVELY putting the situation behind your desires as a consumer. You can say you're against harassment all you want, but when you go in public and say the company should focus more on what you want instead of providing a safe working environment then you're taking a step to perpetuating that sort of behavior. It's certainly different than being a manager belittling their employees, but it's still problematic in a different way.

    No one is saying you should stop caring about the game. The issue is priorities. Yeah, I understand that your relationship with Blizzard has been strictly producer/consumer. Mine was too. The difference is that I recognize, given this situation, that things NEED to change. If updates are delayed then that's a necessary part of the process (and seriously, 9.1 JUST released. We weren't getting another big patch for a while). Supporting Blizzard taking the time to address the issues does not mean you no longer care about the game.
    I've made numerous posts about this, which is why I didn't bother repeating the same things and took my posts as one continous take. That must be why some of it is being missed. I've started dealing in absolutes the moment players asking for the game to be taken care of have started being called accomplices to a faulty system, part of the problem and worse.

    I do want Blizzard to deal with this appropriately and my grievances are with Blizzard, not the employees asking for proper working conditions. The employee in question made a large number of players have a grievance with him instead. In another thread, before the employees even addressed this on their own, I've pointed out that the most important thing is that working conditions are in line with the law. I absolutely refuse to accept that I am part of a problem I didn't create or contribute to. I also won't let a person that was a silent observer of said problem guilt trip me into it either.

    The main difference between your understanding and mine is that you think that what I'm doing as a customer is harmful, which I disagree with to a large degree, but also don't completely dismiss. Nothing can perpetuate a culture of sexual harassment in a working environment but the ones who are part of it and are going through with it; that is all there is to it. I also reckognize that things need to change if the lawsuit finds wrongdoings and seeing as the state raised a lawsuit in the first place, there have to have been indications that there are a lot of them. This however doesn't mean it that is unwarranted to ask them about their plans for the game. I also don't think it perpetuates the problem in the way you describe it because asking for the game to be developed and taken care of isn't mutually exclusive with wanting any wrongdoing to be punished; these two things can in fact be done hand-in-hand. People need to stop pretending that stopping development on World of Warcraft is going to make the alleged and reasonably suspected sexual harassment go away quicker; the only thing that can do that is punishment and punishment will come with proven guilt, regardless wether World of Warcraft is in development or not.

    Most of those, including me, who keep asking about their plans for the game, didn't approach it with the same intensity; I initially addressed it very mildly in fact, expressing support, but the reaction it has gotten, including that employee's response, warranted an equally unsympathetic and blunt reaction in my opinion. The attempt at guilt tripping, by both other players and employees, needed addressing. If we disagree on this, then we simply disagree on it.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-07-27 at 11:41 PM.

  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimin View Post
    Next time a bank is caught having employees committing fraud go telling their customers "If all you care about are your savings getting frozen for mismanagement then you're part of the problem". See how that works out.

    We're customers, not their bros or pals, and this isn't Cuba.
    We're strangers whom they owe service because we paid for the promise of said service. Comprende?
    We couldn't care less about a company's personal internal problems that they allowed to grow beyond control and now they're paying the price, we're in no way responsible for it, but we still expect you to provide the continued service you promised upon taking our money, still.

    There's nothing "scummy" in expecting a company to uphold their end of the bargain we both signed for.
    Another bad faith comparison, this time equating a gaming company to a bank. Not only that but you’re trying to suggest that employees essentially tampering with the product is the same as employees being mistreated? Come on…

    Additionally, did I miss the update where Blizzard was taking down the servers? Because if they’re not, then they’re still providing exactly what your sub is meant to pay for.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Another bad faith comparison, this time equating a gaming company to a bank. Not only that but you’re trying to suggest that employees essentially tampering with the product is the same as employees being mistreated? Come on…

    Additionally, did I miss the update where Blizzard was taking down the servers? Because if they’re not, then they’re still providing exactly what your sub is meant to pay for.
    I’m glad you replied. Because it saves me having to explain the basics to people.

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    Nothing can perpetuate a culture of sexual harassment in a working environment but the ones who are part of it and are going through with it.
    This is where you’re most wrong. People (both on the inside AND the outside) hand waving or staying quiet on these types of issues is one of the main reasons they’re so difficult to stamp out. There’s no shortage of threads around here that tout the consumer’s power to influence a company with their wallets, and the same goes for what those customers publicly endorse/criticize. Blizzard is already getting raked across the coals so it’s less about them in this respect, but stating that companies should prioritize their product over their employees and/or should quietly deal with things like harassment is exactly what helps situations like this fester elsewhere.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    This is where you’re most wrong. People (both on the inside AND the outside) hand waving or staying quiet on these types of issues is one of the main reasons they’re so difficult to stamp out. There’s no shortage of threads around here that tout the consumer’s power to influence a company with their wallets, and the same goes for what those customers publicly endorse/criticize. Blizzard is already getting raked across the coals so it’s less about them in this respect, but stating that companies should prioritize their product over their employees and/or should quietly deal with things like harassment is exactly what helps situations like this fester elsewhere.
    I'm not wrong insofar that I'm not not here to catch sexual crime perpetrators at Blizzard. Do I want them to take care of it? Absolutely. Companies can work on their product and handle these issues at the same time; that however entails a sense of duty both to the player and the employee, none of which are being displayed.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2021-07-27 at 11:39 PM.

  18. #658
    And why is this my problem? What is airing their dirty laundry in my face going to help? I sympathize with the victims, but it has nothing to do with me. I play the game, not social warfare. Dont tell me what to prioritize

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    I'm not wrong insofar that I'm not not here to catch sexual crime perpetrators at Blizzard. Do I want them to take care of it? Absolutely. Companies can work on their product and handle these issues at the same time; that however entails a sense of duty both to the player and the employee, none of which are being displayed.
    Uuuuuugh… Alright, last time. It’s not just about Blizzard. Harassment and bullying are issues that perpetuate thanks to people who say “it’s not my job to say anything” or “why should I care?”. That’s how it has always been. How is this news to you? Your mentality IS part of the problem, whether you choose to recognize that or not.

  20. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormwolf64 View Post
    And why is this my problem? What is airing their dirty laundry in my face going to help? I sympathize with the victims, but it has nothing to do with me. I play the game, not social warfare. Dont tell me what to prioritize
    Are you referring to Alex Klontzas's comment?

    Yeah, he is 100% right you are part of the problem, if the first think that pops into your mind is "but what about the content?". And please, you are not sympathizing with anyone, and even completely fail to realize this hostile work environment, where someone recently took her own life no less, is not a fertile ground for good content you seem to crave.

    Yes, your prioritization is fucked.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ransath View Post
    Money laundering, especially prior to his election? I couldn't give a flying fuck.

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