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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Santti View Post
    Are you referring to Alex Klontzas's comment?

    Yeah, he is 100% right you are part of the problem, if the first think that pops into your mind is "but what about the content?". And please, you are not sympathizing with anyone, and even completely fail to realize this hostile work environment, where someone recently took her own life no less, is not a fertile ground for good content you seem to crave.

    Yes, your prioritization is fucked.
    Think what you want, but i believe the same for you. It's trendy to blow your lid atm and why not join the wave! I just play the game, and if that is problematic for them then they can quit their jobs and find something else to do, as they don't seem to value customers

  2. #682
    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    O
    "The problem" is toxic work environments in general, and customers coming out to publicly say they care more about the product than the well-being of the people making that product does indeed help perpetuate "the problem". This isn't something specific to Blizzard alone.

    People also seem to misunderstand exactly what it is they're paying for. You pay a monthly subscription for nothing but access. That's it. You don't own anything on your account and you are not entitled to updates and patches. Nothing on Blizzard's end of the transaction has changed, so why would you expect free game time? I'm not saying that would be a bad thing, but it would just be a good faith gesture. Certainly not something that should be expected. If you want to lump the expectation of future content as a reason to sub, then that's on you and you really shouldn't be getting 6 month sub bundles since there's no guarantee that you'll get exactly what you want over that time.
    That's a bad take on the things most people say though. Other than blatant trolls, I doubt anyone really said that they don't care about the issues at Blizzard and would rather have them continue daily business to deliver content. The sentiment is that there is an expecatation that business continues since payment continues.

    Imaigne this:

    I work at a company that delivers a maintanence service for a website.
    I stage a walk out because our internal issues demand that. Things must change.
    My clients will 100% be behind me for a good cause.
    The whole company doesn't work for a day, thus no service provided to our clients.
    The end of month arrives, and I send an invoice to my client for the day of the walk out.

    Or even worse, I tell my clients we have to stop working for a month, but then invoice them regardless.

    You know what would happen? The support would turn into a mail from my client's lawyer.



    We have a fundamental difference of understanding what the payment fee is for. If you don't mind to point me towards the passage that says that the fee is only for access and that content updates and continuous service to the product we've bought (don't forget, every addon also costs extra money on top of the monthly fee) are explicitly not part of the bargain, I will stand corrected and instantly cancel my subscription.
    Last edited by Tsarez; 2021-07-28 at 08:47 AM.

  3. #683
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarez View Post
    If you don't mind to point me towards the passage that says that the fee is only for access and that content updates and continuous service to the product we've bought (don't forget, every addon also costs extra money on top of the monthly fee) are explicitly not part of the bargain, I will stand corrected and instantly cancel my subscription.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If you accept and comply with the terms of this Agreement, Blizzard will grant, and you will receive, a limited, revocable, non-sub licensable, and non-exclusive license to use the Platform”
    Read the End Users License Agreement. You own nothing. They promise nothing and what you have is access to the platform followed by a number of rules, limitations and statements that essentially say they can do what they want with your account any time they please. This is not really unusual for online games.

    https://www.blizzard.com/en-us/legal...ense-agreement
    “We live in a moment where everything immediately seems to default to outrage. There’s a kind of M.O. of either it’s exactly how I see it, or you’re my enemy.”

  4. #684
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If you accept and comply with the terms of this Agreement, Blizzard will grant, and you will receive, a limited, revocable, non-sub licensable, and non-exclusive license to use the Platform”
    Read the End Users License Agreement. You own nothing. They promise nothing and what you have is access to the platform followed by a number of rules, limitations and statements that essentially say they can do what they want with your account any time they please. This is not really unusual for online games.

    https://www.blizzard.com/en-us/legal...ense-agreement
    That means nothing. WoW would instantly die if there was no new content. They know it and we know it. Otherwise, nothing would have been released after the base game of 1.0.

  5. #685
    I wonder why everyone on online forums seems to be an ultra-brutal capitalist hardliner when it comes to supposed obligations and payments. The same goes for many "disruptive" disasters in the last decade or two, like Covid, immigration, and other things that trigger the more right-leaning folks. Eat or die is an extremely crass and heartless position.

    I don't know how it works in the U.S., but in Germany, if something really bad happens to you, you can leave work for a few days until you feel better, or you can use the time to take care of some things, like funerals, hospitalizations, or taking care of people who have had big problems.

    The company still pays me and sometimes you even get further support. For example, I was once in a clinic for 10 weeks and my bosses helped me a lot afterwards. They didn't stop "caring" or "paying" for me, the day I left.

    So it's not wrong to let your inner "Karen" rest for a few days when you see that serious problems are obviously being tackled. A little empathy for the employees is not wrong. Everything else is highly selfish, entitled and cold.

    It's a give and take. Maybe in your country, across the pond, the working conditions are just as sick and brutal that you are not allowed any time to organize or recover. I find that toxic and inhumane. In this case, I wouldn't be surprised if you also put others on a hard leash and think that this is normal. But it is not.
    Last edited by noctim2; 2021-07-28 at 09:56 AM.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by noctim2 View Post
    I don't know how it works in the U.S., but in Germany, if something really bad happens to you, you can leave work for a few days until you feel better, or you can use the time to take care of some things, like funerals, hospitalizations, or taking care of people who have had big problems.
    I'm not sure what you are referring to, but if it's to the "No work is being done" drama, then i will point out that it's the tone and insuation that creates the drama here.

    Rather than asking for understanding and patience for the current situation, where it's understandable that a lot of people may not be able to do work, it's absolutely atrocious to blame the customer, which he absolutely did when he said "You are part of the problem".

    Because that's the crux, he blames paying customers, that they are responsible as well for the sexual harassment inside Blizzard and that's frankly disgusting.
    Customers are not responsible when internal affairs destroy your production capabilities.

  7. #687
    Quote Originally Posted by noctim2 View Post
    I wonder why everyone on online forums seems to be an ultra-brutal capitalist hardliner when it comes to supposed obligations and payments. The same goes for many "disruptive" disasters in the last decade or two, like Covid, immigration, and other things that trigger the more right-leaning folks. Eat or die is an extremely crass and heartless position.

    I don't know how it works in the U.S., but in Germany, if something really bad happens to you, you can leave work for a few days until you feel better, or you can use the time to take care of some things, like funerals, hospitalizations, or taking care of people who have had big problems.

    The company still pays me and sometimes you even get further support. For example, I was once in a clinic for 10 weeks and my bosses helped me a lot afterwards. They didn't stop "caring" or "paying" for me, the day I left.

    So it's not wrong to let your inner "Karen" rest for a few days when you see that serious problems are obviously being tackled. A little empathy for the employees is not wrong. Everything else is highly selfish, entitled and cold.

    It's a give and take. Maybe in your country, across the pond, the working conditions are just as sick and brutal that you are not allowed any time to organize or recover. I find that toxic and inhumane. In this case, I wouldn't be surprised if you also put others on a hard leash and think that this is normal. But it is not.
    It’s mainly anger that no one apparently gives them the same privilege. When in reality they get it, but they think it’s ‘less’ of them to focus on wellbeing and such ‘soy boy’ stuff. Fuck knows, mate.

  8. #688
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Because that's the crux, he blames paying customers, that they are responsible as well for the sexual harassment inside Blizzard and that's frankly disgusting. Customers are not responsible when internal affairs destroy your production capabilities.
    Customers are part of the gaming community.
    Developers are part of the gaming community.
    WoW is 17 years old, so people working at Blizzard right now, actually CAME from this particular community.

    Are you really sure, that - after all the gamer gate drama back then - the gaming community is totally woke and innocent by now? It's not. He didn't address this issue correctly, but I get the message behind it. Just read the comments here.

    Obviously the gamers at home are not directly responsible for Afrasiabis misbehavior, but let's be honest here - This type of behavior is common in the "gaming culture." I am talking about disregard for the feelings of others.
    Last edited by noctim2; 2021-07-28 at 11:58 AM.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I'm not sure what you are referring to, but if it's to the "No work is being done" drama, then i will point out that it's the tone and insuation that creates the drama here.

    Rather than asking for understanding and patience for the current situation, where it's understandable that a lot of people may not be able to do work, it's absolutely atrocious to blame the customer, which he absolutely did when he said "You are part of the problem".

    Because that's the crux, he blames paying customers, that they are responsible as well for the sexual harassment inside Blizzard and that's frankly disgusting.
    Customers are not responsible when internal affairs destroy your production capabilities.
    There's also the fact that this is his literal first (and maybe) only response about this whole situation as a Blizzard senior. Not only is there a good chance he knew about this for a while, but rather than anything else, his first priority is to wag a finger and point blame at paying players for being upset that the company they pay is a dysfunctional wreck filled with sex pests.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by noctim2 View Post
    Customers are part of the gaming community.
    Developers are part of the gaming community.
    WoW is 17 years old, so people working at Blizzard right now, actually CAME from this particular community.

    Are you really sure, that - after all the gamer gate drama back then - the gaming community is totally woke and innocent by now? It's not. He didn't address this issue correctly, but I get the message behind it. Just read the comments here.

    Obviously the gamers at home are not directly responsible for Afrasiabis misbehavior, but let's be honest here - This type of behavior is common in the "gaming culture." I am talking about disregard for the feelings of others.
    Nah son, no matter how much the big evil "G*OoberGl*mp" (it's been 7 years btw) hurt your feelings, that doesn't mean you can conflate it with actual sex pests denigrating and harassing their employees, one of them to suicide. This culture in Blizzard has purportedly existed before your boogeyman hashtag was even a concept, too.

  10. #690
    Quote Originally Posted by noctim2 View Post
    Are you really sure, that - after all the gamer gate drama back then - the gaming community is totally woke and innocent by now? It's not. He didn't address this issue correctly, but I get the message behind it. Just read the comments here.
    The point is that you_cannot_implicate an entire community from around the world to the issue of sexual harassment in your company.
    That's not how it works, mate.

    I am not responsible for what some bad actors are doing that i've never personally interacted with, do not blame these upon anyone simply because they had the audacity to purchase products from the company you are working for and are expecting to be served accordingly.

    There is a huge difference between "there is an issue with sexism in the gaming community and "If you, as paying customer, expect a on time product, you are part of the problem".

    This isn't about Blizzard employees not working, this is about insulting your community.
    Quote Originally Posted by noctim2 View Post
    I am talking about disregard for the feelings of others.
    And i believe that you should also be respectful towards others when you expect sympathy and not issue a general blame towards your customers on something such as sexual harassment WITHIN YOUR COMPANY.

    I repeat it, the smart and sane thing would've been to ask for sympathy and patience, not flip the board not and go "Oh, you expect something? fucking sexist".
    Quote Originally Posted by Yarathir View Post
    There's also the fact that this is his literal first (and maybe) only response about this whole situation as a Blizzard senior. Not only is there a good chance he knew about this for a while, but rather than anything else, his first priority is to wag a finger and point blame at paying players for being upset that the company they pay is a dysfunctional wreck filled with sex pests.
    What rubs me the wrong way is also the fact that he's the one who first broke the news that no work is being done.

    Imagine going to restaraunt, ordering food, then news breaks there are some internal issues about sexual harassment within the restaurant, Waiter / Waitress drops the news that nothing is being cooked anymore and the response to the question about the state of your order is "You worry about food?! You're part of the reason why sexual harassment at our establishment exists".

    There are most certainly bigger problems revealed Blizzard right now, but this just shows how much certain Blizzard employees despise the community of their games.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2021-07-28 at 12:41 PM.

  11. #691
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If you accept and comply with the terms of this Agreement, Blizzard will grant, and you will receive, a limited, revocable, non-sub licensable, and non-exclusive license to use the Platform”
    Read the End Users License Agreement. You own nothing. They promise nothing and what you have is access to the platform followed by a number of rules, limitations and statements that essentially say they can do what they want with your account any time they please. This is not really unusual for online games.

    https://www.blizzard.com/en-us/legal...ense-agreement
    With my account, sure. It's their account in fact, I own nothing. The service I am using though is composed of different advertisements and promises made by Blizzard which have lead to me purchasing that license in the first place. The TOS do not explicitly state that we have no rights or that we should have no expactations to receive updates of content, etc. Therefore, what they advertise is what you can expect in addition to the access and is thus part of the expected service that comes with the fee.

    This is all gulash anyway and means nothing. Nobody will go ahead and force the issue on a legal level. This is about our perceieved relationship with this company and the developers they employ. I do not have the impression that his guy thinks of us as his customers.

    Imagine I tweet to my clients that "I'm being bullied at work and if they expect me to deliver the products they paid money for, they're part of the problem". I'd be booted instantly for buisness damaging actions.

  12. #692
    Herald of the Titans Vorkreist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nachtigal View Post
    Thanks for confirming a what a total lack of brains you have.
    Harvey Weinstein is once again asking for your financial support. Help him quick.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    This is just plain false and outright disrespectful to the women still employed at Blizzard. YOU are part of the problem as to why these women feel so terrified about coming out with these allegations. What woman would dare come out with allegations when people like you come out of the woodwork to claim women like her already left the company? A damn brave one I can tell you that, you should be ashamed of yourself.
    Another sexual harassment apologist . No , YOU should be ashamed of yourself when you pay blizzard every month to continue doing this.

  13. #693
    Quote Originally Posted by noctim2 View Post
    Are you really sure, that - after all the gamer gate drama back then - the gaming community is totally woke and innocent by now? It's not. He didn't address this issue correctly, but I get the message behind it. Just read the comments here.
    gamergate was about a dev fucking journos for fake positive reviews. Gold diggers are naturally a detriment to the storyline everyone is a innocent victim but thats harldy "gamers" fault.

  14. #694
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post

    Imagine going to restaraunt, ordering food, then news breaks there are some internal issues about sexual harassment within the restaurant, Waiter / Waitress drops the news that nothing is being cooked anymore and the response to the question about the state of your order is "You worry about food?! You're part of the reason why sexual harassment exista

    There are most certainly bigger problems revealed Blizzard right now, but this just shows how much certain Blizzard employees despise the community of their games.
    Ok, am I misreading the original statement from that developer? The quote was going smth like "no work isbeing done in this moment" amd if your only concern right now is the new patch, you are a part of the problem."

    So, can someone please explain how do those words indicate whatsoever that they have stopped working on the content completely and how exactly are they blaming customers for this situation???

  15. #695
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    Ok, am I misreading the original statement from that developer? The quote was going smth like "no work isbeing done in this moment" amd if your only concern right now is the new patch, you are a part of the problem."
    I can't find the original thread, since the dev changed his twitter so only followers can read it.

    But he essentially stated: Since the news broke, we haven't worked on anything in WoW.
    Then, he later tweeted:
    If your reaction to everything going on right now to complain that the next patch is going to longer to release, then you need to take a step back and realize that you are part of the problem.
    You value video game content more than human decency and respect.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ses-to-Lawsuit
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    So, can someone please explain how do those words indicate whatsoever that they have stopped working on the content completely and how exactly are they blaming customers for this situation???
    Saying that paying customers for wanting services they paid for are responsible for sexual harassment at Blizzard is just bullshit.

  16. #696
    Reading some of these comments actually made me wanna throw up. Way too many "woke" twitter people in this thread going "l-look at me!! I am an ally!!!!" It's cringe. These people act like they're standing on some pedestal looking down on the rest of the consumers by preaching what Alex Klontzas tweeted.

    We are first and foremost consumers. If Activision Blizzard can't deliver a product because of their internal problems then they need to either find a way to compensate their paying customers while their internal issues are being revolved or cancel their product altogether. They are definitely not doing the latter. Paying customers have the right to expect content regardless of what's happening at Blizzard HQ. It's like ordering take out for later today, paying for said takeout, going to the restaurant to pick it up and being told it wont be ready till next month because the chef is in the midst of marital problems. You're not evil for expecting your takeout you paid for even if the chef is having marital problems.

    Grow the hell up.
    Last edited by s0ul; 2021-07-28 at 03:27 PM.

  17. #697
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarez View Post
    Maybe work on your reading skills?

    >you are part of the problem
    >the problems are internal problems at the company
    >you are part of the problems at the company

    it's literally what he said. there is no twisting. as a paying customer, I have a right to the product i have purchased. if people want to demand that they dont halt the production of that product to solve their issues, while the company even continues to charge them the same rate nontheless... then they're not part of the mysogyistic issues blizzard has. stating anything of that sorts detaches you from reality where you are a service provider and we are paying customers.

    if they said we'll have x months of free game time, or store vouchers, while they halt the production to address internal issues, nobody would have said anything. id even argue that his whole tweet would have been taken in an entirely different light. but he's just a dev after all. he cannot make such decisions. maybe he should also not be making inane tweets and focus on his job: development.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Does the truth make you that uncomfortable? do what you can to change it within your own sphere. if enough people do the same, things will change.
    but everyone who has spent some time in these spheres knows exactly what kind of cesspool youre invoking when you make statements such as these via social media.
    No,. it's not literally what he said. What he was referring to was that if you are complaining to Blizzard developers about where contenbt is when they are trying to process what has happened, youa re part of the problem. You absolutely are twisting words.And you are proving his point. he and the rest are ytrying top process and work on these issues and you are screaming at him to do his job. You are the one who needs to work on his reading skills. You continue to interpret something that isn't there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by s0ul View Post
    Reading some of these comments actually made me wanna throw up. Way too many "woke" twitter people in this thread going "l-look at me!! I am an ally!!!!" It's cringe. These people act like they're standing on some pedestal looking down on the rest of the consumers by preaching what Alex Klontzas tweeted.

    We are first and foremost consumers. If Activision Blizzard can't deliver a product because of their internal problems then they need to either find a way to compensate their paying customers while their internal issues are being revolved or cancel their product altogether. They are definitely not doing the latter. Paying customers have the right to expect content regardless of what's happening at Blizzard HQ. It's like ordering take out for later today, paying for said takeout, going to the restaurant to pick it up and being told it wont be ready till next month because the chef is in the midst of marital problems. You're not evil for expecting your takeout you paid for even if the chef is having marital problems.

    Grow the hell up.
    Tbhanks for porving his point. Ignore what is happening, give mer my content, right? The entitlement here is toxic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarez View Post
    Imagine I tweet to my clients that "I'm being bullied at work and if they expect me to deliver the products they paid money for, they're part of the problem". I'd be booted instantly for buisness damaging actions.
    NOt what he said at all! When will you people stop twisting his words? It is beyond dishonest and proves his point.

  18. #698
    Quote Originally Posted by Vorkreist View Post
    Another sexual harassment apologist . No , YOU should be ashamed of yourself when you pay blizzard every month to continue doing this.
    Nothing I said comes off as a harassment apologist.

    I am saying there are still women employed at Blizzard, women that were victims, women that are a part of the very walk-out against the harassers. Are you saying these women employed there still are also "harassment apologists"? Btw, I don't still pay them every month, my sub has been cancelled for a while. Where are you even getting that?

  19. #699
    Quote Originally Posted by rrayy View Post
    No,. it's not literally what he said. What he was referring to was that if you are complaining to Blizzard developers about where contenbt is when they are trying to process what has happened, youa re part of the problem. You absolutely are twisting words.And you are proving his point. he and the rest are ytrying top process and work on these issues and you are screaming at him to do his job. You are the one who needs to work on his reading skills. You continue to interpret something that isn't there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Tbhanks for porving his point. Ignore what is happening, give mer my content, right? The entitlement here is toxic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    NOt what he said at all! When will you people stop twisting his words? It is beyond dishonest and proves his point.
    It isn't toxic entitlement. It's a legitimate question about what we can expect for the same amount of fee, which we're paying the company that employs them, now that they're taking time off the projects to process internal issues.

    I wish them all the success, but if it means that product that I'm purchasing won't receive any further updates and support till they've solved their issues, I'll cancel my sub. I'm very pragmatic about this.

    His statement basically said two things:

    Until we solve our problems, dev is frozen.
    If you got a problem with that, you're part of the problem.

    The problem isn't that they freeze, the problem is that all who complain because they have certain expectations about the return of their spendings are framed as part of the problem. That's inane.

    And I certainly don't enjoy being called names by developers who cry wolf now after being years part of what apparently is an openly toxic environment. Unless you've spent all your time as a hermit developer there's isn't a chance in hell you didn't know how your peers behave.

    You know what would have been better?

    Hi guys, were freezing development until we solve our issues. We suggest you also freeze your sub until blizzard finally implements actual changes. Support us!

    Boy he would have gathered so many followers. But he chose the toxic approach instead, shaming everyone around him. Go figure
    Last edited by Tsarez; 2021-07-28 at 04:01 PM.

  20. #700
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarez View Post
    It isn't toxic entitlement. It's a legitimate question about what we can expect for the same amount of fee, which we're paying the company that employs them, now that they're taking time off the projects to process internal issues.

    I wish them all the success, but if it means that product that I'm purchasing won't receive any further updates and support till they've solved their issues, I'll cancel my sub. I'm very pragmatic about this.

    His statement basically said two things:

    Until we solve our problems, dev is frozen.
    If you got a problem with that, you're part of the problem.

    The problem isn't that they freeze, the problem is that all who complain because they have certain expectations about the return of their spendings are framed as part of the problem. That's inane.

    And I certainly don't enjoy being called names by developers who cry wolf now after being years part of what apparently is an openly toxic environment. Unless you've spent all your time as a hermit developer there's isn't a chance in hell you didn't know how your peers behave.

    You know what would have been better?

    Hi guys, were freezing development until we solve our issues. We suggest you also freeze your sub until blizzard finally implements actual changes. Support us!

    Boy he would have gathered so many followers. But he chose the toxic approach instead, shaming everyone around him. Go figure
    This is all a load of BS and you continue to misrepresent his words. What he said was that anyone who whines to the developers about content and thinks that is more important than those that have been hurt, you are part of the problem. What you fail to understand is that those that have been hurt are wroking on content. You are basically telling those people "I don't care that you were hurt,get back to making muh content". that is down right insulting and insensitive. But you only care about yourself. Go figure.

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