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  1. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    The problem I have with this is first:

    They are making revenge out to be a bad thing. It's really annoying because this is a story about war. I really hate that path Blizz has chosen.

    Secondly, there's no saving the Night Elves. They can save them from the Maw yes, but they will still be stuck in the Shadowlands. So that ship sailed 4 years ago.

    I actually don't really mind if Elune isn't all powerful... But I'd rather them be wisps in Azeroth than being stuck in the Shadowlands to live their "new lives".
    But the war in wow in regards to the story has always been how this is not the way. That peace is the right way and revenge is wrong. That's been the core of the moral of wow since what WC3 when there actually put in a story beyond WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH vs Honour.

    It seems people pushing for war war war, revenge etc think this is Warhammer when it isn't.

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    It seems people pushing for war war war, revenge etc think this is Warhammer when it isn't.
    Isn't it? Cosmic powers playing with us mortal on an multiverse chess game, pretty much 40K.

    What I really hope from Warcraft, for more than a decade, it's the mortals banding up and kicking ALL shitty cosmic powers, like in Babylon 5. And boy, the shitty pantheon of cosmic keeps getting bigger.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    She isn't "the god of the Warcraft universe" -- she is one deity of many, alongside the Titans and the Eternal Ones. And she belongs to a different realm than Death, almost certainly the realm of Life. So naturally she wouldn't have power or special insight into the Shadowlands, unlike Bwonsamdi, who is a minor death god.

    She only has a window into the Shadowlands right now because she's using Tyrande as an avatar and Tyrande is there.




    Once again, what makes you think that Elune, who is pretty obviously being established as a goddess of Life, would know more about the Shadowlands than Bwonsamdi, a god of Death, even a minor one?

    The Cosmic Forces really don't intermingle very much. Elune heard her sister's pleas, that's all. No different from hearing the prayers of her mortal followers.

    And she's not omniscient or omnipotent, either. She's just another deity in another pantheon, like the Titans and the Eternal Ones.




    What are you even talking about? That is not what the story is for this expansion. People still die, they're going straight to hell instead of their intended afterlives. Nobody outside the Shadowlands knew that was happening until we got there. Hell, most within the Shadowlands didn't even know for sure why the drought was happening.

    And again, the Shadowlands are not a realm that Elune can just peak into, obviously. She heard her sister's prayer and tried to answer it, that's all.
    Let me spell it out.

    1) Souls stop coming to the realms of the Shadowlands.
    2) The denizens of those realms wonder why there is a drought.
    3) Death having stopped across the entirety of the universe is unlikely.
    4) therefor, the reason likely is not a lack of souls being send to the Shadowlands but something else. What that else is they don't know and can't figure out until we get there.
    5) the solution to the problem obviously is not to send more souls into the Shadowlands (aka what Elune does is dumb, even if she doesn't know what is wrong).
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Djaye View Post
    this seems to be what old Sylvie wants, to destroy their whole system of life and death and how mortal souls are used by gods.
    Jailer represents the cosmic force of death and she was allied with the jailer, so no.

  5. #285
    It wasn't enough to almost completely destroy the Night Elves as a race, now they've also taken away the last remnants of what made the race mysterious and elevated them above the other peoples of Azeroth. We're witnessing the complete unravelling of the Warcraft universe at lightning speed.

    He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.
    The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
    Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
    Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?

  6. #286
    Night Elves normally become wisps when they die, which might be because of Elune?

    Elune wasn’t involved in night elves being killed at Telsrassil, people are blaming her for Sylvanas’ actions.

    Rather I interpreted it as Elune allowed her favourite children to be sent to Ardenweald to aid the Winter Queen and the Cycle - not knowing what was happening in the Shadowlands.
    Seems entirely plausible to me.

    When she did find out, she shed a tear (Tear of Elune) which was then used by the Winter Queen to save Tyrande, and allow them to rescue the Night Elf souls lost to the Maw.

    Lovely cinematic btw.

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    But the war in wow in regards to the story has always been how this is not the way. That peace is the right way and revenge is wrong. That's been the core of the moral of wow since what WC3 when there actually put in a story beyond WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH vs Honour.

    It seems people pushing for war war war, revenge etc think this is Warhammer when it isn't.
    Yes but there's a difference between that, and having Anduin and co corner Sylvanas, only for HIM to yell at Genn when hes questioning her, and instead of killing her, allowing her to escape so she can cause way more damage. It's ridiculous. If they had killed her there they would've spared so many lives.

  8. #288
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    But I don't know... After these last two expansions I just have the feeling they just flat out hate Night Elves.
    I don't necessarily have faith in them being able to pull together everything and bring this expansion to a satisfying conclusion. But I do think they have the elements of a good, compelling story here.

    In fact I think I'd characterize this as a good story told very poorly.

    "Sylvanas fears death so she starts a war to create an army of souls in hell to try and change the nature of death itself" is a cool and fitting concept. "Tyrande grapples with revenge and her faith in Elune following the massacre of her people" is als a cool idea for a story arc.

    There's cool ideas here. But the way they've been presented to us thus far completely undercuts their impact.

    I hope they can pull it together. Lately I've just been having more fun talking with my friends about how I'd have done things differently, or what they could do from here that would actually be cool. And that, at least, is entertaining in its own way. But for people who just take the story on its face, I can absolutely understand all the current dissatisfaction.

    I think probably the biggest issue is that we needed to have the content of the Sylvanas novel already, to give her actions appropriate context. And frankly it should have been told in-game over the course of the last three expansions. A story that only makes sense in retrospect isn't a very good story.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemoon View Post
    Night Elves normally become wisps when they die, which might be because of Elune?

    Elune wasn’t involved in night elves being killed at Telsrassil, people are blaming her for Sylvanas’ actions.

    Rather I interpreted it as Elune allowed her favourite children to be sent to Ardenweald to aid the Winter Queen and the Cycle - not knowing what was happening in the Shadowlands.
    Seems entirely plausible to me.

    When she did find out, she shed a tear (Tear of Elune) which was then used by the Winter Queen to save Tyrande, and allow them to rescue the Night Elf souls lost to the Maw.

    Lovely cinematic btw.
    What sounds more like "my favorite children" = "those who are defending the important planet".

    And even feeling sad about their suffering is part of my plan because my tears give powers.
    But it makes me think that she threw the souls into the jaws to feel bad so she could drop that tear

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    But the war in wow in regards to the story has always been how this is not the way. That peace is the right way and revenge is wrong. That's been the core of the moral of wow since what WC3 when there actually put in a story beyond WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH vs Honour.

    It seems people pushing for war war war, revenge etc think this is Warhammer when it isn't.
    I feel that there's a middle ground between having an entire setting of genocidal murderhobos like Warhammer, and doing their damnest to soften every edge of every character and have everyone forget every slight except against whoever is the big bad du jour. Conflict can exist without leading to apocalyptic wars and cosmic confrontations if you write them half decently, but Blizzard has decided that they must escalate every grievance into the stratosphere until it either makes for a raid or is rendered meaningless by the plot (sometimes both, see BDA Jaina and now Sylvanas). Smaller-scale and understandable conflicts that add spice to the universe without overtaking it are few and far between, sadly since that's such a far better way to write the faction conflict but hasn't happen since like Wrath.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemoon View Post
    When she did find out, she shed a tear (Tear of Elune) which was then used by the Winter Queen to save Tyrande, and allow them to rescue the Night Elf souls lost to the Maw.
    It was Tyrande that shed a tear, with the Night Warrior's powers.

    Elune manipulated Tyrande as a puppet.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    What sounds more like "my favorite children" = "those who are defending the important planet".

    And even feeling sad about their suffering is part of my plan because my tears give powers.
    But it makes me think that she threw the souls into the jaws to feel bad so she could drop that tear
    ‘Tear of Elune’ has always been a powerful artifact. Doesn’t mean she deliberately gets upset to throw power around.

    Moreover if Elune is the god of life - then as we know all life is precious and flittering. Here today, gone tomorrow. Her tears over the necessity of that cycle would be quite fitting.

    Whereas we know the Winter Queen is quite solemn in her duty and is able to largely act without being overwhelmed by emotion.

    Another reason they balance each other out.

    And if Elune is a very emotional being, not only does her tears being powerful make sense, but the fact she would send the souls to Ardenweald to aid her sister is also in keeping with her character.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Timester View Post
    It was Tyrande that shed a tear, with the Night Warrior's powers.

    Elune manipulated Tyrande as a puppet.
    It was Tyrande’s body but I interpreted it as Elune’s tear.

  13. #293
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Let me spell it out.

    1) Souls stop coming to the realms of the Shadowlands.
    2) The denizens of those realms wonder why there is a drought.
    3) Death having stopped across the entirety of the universe is unlikely.
    4) therefor, the reason likely is not a lack of souls being send to the Shadowlands but something else. What that else is they don't know and can't figure out until we get there.
    5) the solution to the problem obviously is not to send more souls into the Shadowlands (aka what Elune does is dumb, even if she doesn't know what is wrong).
    Yeah, but as far as anyone in the Shadowlands knew, the cause was just a shortage of souls.

    We've also seen several cases of souls being withheld from the Shadowlands (on Azeroth alone: Elune, Meuh'zala, Bwonsamdi, the Scourge, the Forsaken), so why wouldn't they think that the drought is just a lack of souls coming in?

    And again, why would Elune be expected to know any of this? If you get a missive that says "we're starving, please help" -- you send some food.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemoon View Post
    It was Tyrande’s body but I interpreted it as Elune’s tear.
    Elune said it was Tyrande's choice. Tyrande choose and shed a tear.

  15. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemoon View Post
    ‘Tear of Elune’ has always been a powerful artifact. Doesn’t mean she deliberately gets upset to throw power around.

    Moreover if Elune is the god of life - then as we know all life is precious and flittering. Here today, gone tomorrow. Her tears over the necessity of that cycle would be quite fitting.

    Whereas we know the Winter Queen is quite solemn in her duty and is able to largely act without being overwhelmed by emotion.

    Another reason they balance each other out.

    And if Elune is a very emotional being, not only does her tears being powerful make sense, but the fact she would send the souls to Ardenweald to aid her sister is also in keeping with her character.
    Exacto appreciates life and emotions so much that he didn't care about his people because that was going to help his heraman. Destroying hundreds of lives.
    Why not apart from making him suffer like this, he feels sad and can let out one of his powerful tears.

    When Sira and Dalarin asked for help she let them rot. It is more now I understand why I did not kill Sylvanas. She needed to release that tear. Letting out that tear was more important than fulfilling the last will of the people "justice".

  16. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    Yeah, but as far as anyone in the Shadowlands knew, the cause was just a shortage of souls.

    We've also seen several cases of souls being withheld from the Shadowlands (on Azeroth alone: Elune, Meuh'zala, Bwonsamdi, the Scourge, the Forsaken), so why wouldn't they think that the drought is just a lack of souls coming in?

    And again, why would Elune be expected to know any of this? If you get a missive that says "we're starving, please help" -- you send some food.
    No she send food to the supermarket supplier in the hopes that it would go from there to the supermarket and that her sister could then get some food there. But if that supply chain was all working her sister probably wouldn't be starving in the first place.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Timester View Post
    Elune said it was Tyrande's choice. Tyrande choose and shed a tear.
    I took it as Elune shedding the tear, Winterqueen taking it and then Tyrande awakening with her decision to follow.

  18. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Timester View Post
    Elune said it was Tyrande's choice. Tyrande choose and shed a tear.
    I think given everything we know about the power of Elune’s tear, and the power needed to cleanse Tyrande of being a ‘Night Warrior’, it is suppose to be Elune’s Tear and not Tyrande’s Tear, which makes no sense.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    Exacto appreciates life and emotions so much that he didn't care about his people because that was going to help his heraman. Destroying hundreds of lives.
    Why not apart from making him suffer like this, he feels sad and can let out one of his powerful tears.

    When Sira and Dalarin asked for help she let them rot. It is more now I understand why I did not kill Sylvanas. She needed to release that tear. Letting out that tear was more important than fulfilling the last will of the people "justice".
    I don’t understand your post and think you might be trying to overthink Elune’s motives in this story.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Djaye View Post
    this seems to be what old Sylvie wants, to destroy their whole system of life and death and how mortal souls are used by gods.
    this isnt redeeming of her actions, but it explains her motives a bit better. her realization that the jailor is no different than the rest seems to fit in as well.
    she is the only character who actually has the best interests of mortal souls in mind it seems imho.
    I dont want to work for Kyrians who wipe the memories of the souls that go there and have no free agency, I dont want to go to work for venthyr who torture souls for eternity, I don't want to go to work for necrolords that welcome newcomers into a battle Royale that turns them into soulless anime power, and I dont want to work for nightfae that allows souls to just dissapear.

    Afterlife in WoW is legit a joke, but blizzard forces us to support these clowns.

  20. #300
    It's just beautiful. Peak Night Elf writing right here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
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    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

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